Discussion
REALIST123 said:
So the costs were circa twice the claim? Why am I not surprised?
So, Piper wins nothing, just gets his engine fixed.
Hales loses big time.
The lawyers win big time.
When will people learn?
Let's not forget that Piper promptly sold his 917 for £1.25million, yet still pursued Hales through the court. I'm sure David Piper had every right to do what he did, but think Mark Hales can feel very aggreived that he's lost a case for damage to a car that the plaintiff no longer ownsSo, Piper wins nothing, just gets his engine fixed.
Hales loses big time.
The lawyers win big time.
When will people learn?
slopes said:
Let's not forget that Piper promptly sold his 917 for £1.25million, yet still pursued Hales through the court. I'm sure David Piper had every right to do what he did, but think Mark Hales can feel very aggreived that he's lost a case for damage to a car that the plaintiff no longer owns
I know Chris Harris disagrees with this, but I believe that magazines like Octane do provide a huge boost to the history and therefore helps to inflate the formidable pricing of such cars. I understand that the car was a bitza with no provenance, so an engine build circa £38k for a £1.25million car seems comparatively small beer.I still believe that Octane and Hales should jointly have made Piper a sensible offer towards the repair of the engine. Becoming entrenched in his belief that he was entirely blameless was clearly his undoing, but the judge's lambasting of Hales' reputation just adds a huge insult on top of his financial misery.
An out of court offer was made, I believe, by Octane before the case went to court. For reasons that are not known Mr Piper decided to reject the offer.
Details of the offer, & the reasons for rejection, have not been made public by either party. It would be very interesting to know what/why as it might show things in a different light.
Details of the offer, & the reasons for rejection, have not been made public by either party. It would be very interesting to know what/why as it might show things in a different light.
http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2013/01/Mark-Hales...
Here's a fundraiser - (probably posted elsewhere undoubtedly)
Some good info with good links on the efforts going on.
Here's a fundraiser - (probably posted elsewhere undoubtedly)
Some good info with good links on the efforts going on.
sarbec said:
Does this action mean that drivers wont race cars owned by millionaires & classic race cars that we all love to see will be wrapped in cotton wool again. ?
Really hope not
Not unless they have an written indemnity covering crash damage and mechanical failures, would you? As the ability to be invited to the 'events' on the circuit (Goodwood, Spa, Monaco, Angouleme etc) depends on them having a motor to bring, I'd imagine the majority will accept the situation and still continue. Don't expect to see many driving BP green machines this year without a watertight contract in place.Really hope not
tali1 said:
999 Judges out of 1000 would have awarded in Hales favour - rotten luck he got one of those terrorist/paedo friendly nutter m'luds
read the judgement, the judge could only find in favour of DP based on the evidence before him (among other gems, MH actually admitted in a signed statement to an insurance co, that there was no mechanical issue, and that he alone was responsible, once the insurance co declined to cough up, he then stated there was an issue with the gearbox) I can't pretend I have no sympathy for MH, I do, but he made a bad situation worse, knowing the above would inevitably come to light, yet still carrying on? Mad.
slopes said:
Let's not forget that Piper promptly sold his 917 for £1.25million, yet still pursued Hales through the court. I'm sure David Piper had every right to do what he did, but think Mark Hales can feel very aggreived that he's lost a case for damage to a car that the plaintiff no longer owns
What on earth is the relevance of this?Piper sold the car (after paying to have the engine repaired) at some later date.
That he no longer owns the car is utterly irrelevant, though if Hales had settled the original debt for around £40k, he would have likely still owned it
MMC Andy said:
Didn't matter if he was responsible or not, on track insurance doesn't cover mechancial failure - so mute point.
It mattered to the judge in deciding whom was more likely to be telling the truth, and the judge did not find MH to be a reliable witness, so clearly not totally moot.wibble cb said:
tali1 said:
999 Judges out of 1000 would have awarded in Hales favour - rotten luck he got one of those terrorist/paedo friendly nutter m'luds
read the judgement, the judge could only find in favour of DP based on the evidence before him (among other gems, MH actually admitted in a signed statement to an insurance co, that there was no mechanical issue, and that he alone was responsible, once the insurance co declined to cough up, he then stated there was an issue with the gearbox) I can't pretend I have no sympathy for MH, I do, but he made a bad situation worse, knowing the above would inevitably come to light, yet still carrying on? Mad.
Respected historian Doug Noye summed it perfectly
“I’m astonished and saddened,”
tali1 said:
But surely Piper has some responsibility as he volunteered to enter into a risk situation - and therefore do his utmost to mimimize any risk?
Respected historian Doug Noye summed it perfectly
“I’m astonished and saddened,”
Again, based on the judgement, the judge chose to believe DP's version of events, in that the rule of 'you bend it, you mend it' had been agreed to by both parties, MH recalled this differently but could not prove that in court(his witness was unable to catagorically state precisely what he heard due to background noise).Respected historian Doug Noye summed it perfectly
“I’m astonished and saddened,”
This was a purely commercial transaction, that MH wanted to retain ownership of (a reasonable point of view, as it stood to be a popular piece that may have sold into many markets), but this also is the point that landed MH personally in the situation he now finds himself in.
As others have said, if this had been someone else trying something in business with risks and challenges and failing (perhaps through no perceived fault of their own), would everyone be talking about a whip round?
I will echo Doug Nye, as it is astonishing (that it got to court), and saddening, as MH is now facing the financial abyss, but it was a risk that backfired (no pun intended).
tali1 said:
But surely Piper has some responsibility as he volunteered to enter into a risk situation - and therefore do his utmost to mimimize any risk?
Respected historian Doug Noye summed it perfectly
“I’m astonished and saddened,”
Doug Nye is indeed much respected, but if he is astonished he cant have bothered to read the judgementRespected historian Doug Noye summed it perfectly
“I’m astonished and saddened,”
As Open and shut a case as you will ever see, nothing remotely surprising about the verdict
freedman said:
...if Hales had settled the original debt for around £40k, he would have likely still owned it
Though equally irrelevant I'm curios why you suppose this? The obvious conclusion is that Piper was intending to sell his 917 Replica using publicity gained from Hales' article as a platform for its promotion in the classic car mags. freedman said:
tali1 said:
999 Judges out of 1000 would have awarded in Hales favour - rotten luck he got one of those terrorist/paedo friendly nutter m'luds
More like 1000 out of 1000 would have found against him"I find such an attempt to resile from a signed and written statement long after it was written as a self interested and cynical attempt to avoid the consequences a an uninsured judgment and substantial costs against him personally. Mr Hales was a most unreliable witness whose evidence was creative, inconsistent, self motivated and incredible."
RichB said:
Though equally irrelevant I'm curios why you suppose this? The obvious conclusion is that Piper was intending to sell his 917 Replica using publicity gained from Hales' article as a platform for its promotion in the classic car mags.
Firstly when did Piper sell the car?Secondly, his cars are so well lknown in the ircles that are likely to buy them, a magazine feauture is hardly going to have any impact
This was a 1 mil plus 917, not an unknown 15k 911, where it may have some kind of impact
freedman said:
RichB said:
Though equally irrelevant I'm curious why you suppose this? The obvious conclusion is that Piper was intending to sell his 917 Replica using publicity gained from Hales' article as a platform for its promotion in the classic car mags.
Firstly when did Piper sell the car?freedman said:
Secondly, his cars are so well known in the circles that are likely to buy them, a magazine feauture is hardly going to have any impact. This was a 1 mil plus 917, not an unknown 15k 911, where it may have some kind of impact
I disagree entirely, and would say the opposite is true. If you look at the classic mags you will know that they are full of features and tests of multi-million pound cars loaned by showrooms and auction houses for that exact reason. The mag gets a feature and the owners get publicity. That much is clear to see. There is no reason to assume Piper sold it simply because the engine blew. p.s. not taking sides on the case because I am not sufficiently familiar with the law but I agree Hales would have been best to have reached a personal agreement long beforehand.
Edited by RichB on Tuesday 29th January 14:11
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