Mark Hales...

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Discussion

freedman

5,395 posts

206 months

Friday 21st June 2013
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Need some legal minds here

I thought you could only make someone Bankrupt if they couldnt pay what they owed

You cant do it just to punish someone as Hales is suggesting?

Of course this would have all been settled months and months ago had Hales been truthful and paid up in the first place..

eccles

13,720 posts

221 months

Friday 21st June 2013
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RichB said:
eccles said:
Why on earth would Piper want to raise the profile of a very rare and well known car that very few people can afford? Cars like that are sold by word of mouth and some magazine article is hardly going to raise it's profile in a way that it's suddenly worth a lot more money or increase the number of people who suddenly think I'll put an offer in on that car.
It seems you agree with me that the debate will run and run however I think you're being intentionally obtuse on that one point though. Else why would RM Auction, Bonhams and Kidstons etc. loan out desirable and well known cars for magazines to feature a few months prior to their auctions? For the fun of it or perhaps to gain some publicity? scratchchin
I'm not being deliberately obtuse, I just have a different opinion to you. It's a rare and valuable car with a limited market (it's not exactly practical, you can hardly pop down the shops in it!). These sort of cars often change hands with no publicity and by word of mouth. The auction houses often publicise well known cars to get the buyers in to bid on the more run of the mill cars.

RichB

51,429 posts

283 months

Friday 21st June 2013
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As you say a different take on the situation. I have noticed, particularly over the last 4 or 5 years, that almost every car featured in the classic car glossies, regardless of its practicality, is found to be for sale in one way or another elsewhere in the magazine. The same being true for Piper's Porsche.

EDLT

15,421 posts

205 months

Friday 21st June 2013
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Did I misunderstand Hales' email or was he trying to settle after the court case?

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 21st June 2013
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EDLT said:
Did I misunderstand Hales' email or was he trying to settle after the court case?
He was trying to pay what the court awarded Piper. Presumably Hales can't raise the full amount and Piper won't settle for less so is pushing for bankruptcy.

Looks a better option for Hales than Piper, to me. Plenty of discharged bankrupts enjoying second lives.

EDLT

15,421 posts

205 months

Friday 21st June 2013
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REALIST123 said:
EDLT said:
Did I misunderstand Hales' email or was he trying to settle after the court case?
He was trying to pay what the court awarded Piper. Presumably Hales can't raise the full amount and Piper won't settle for less so is pushing for bankruptcy.

Looks a better option for Hales than Piper, to me. Plenty of discharged bankrupts enjoying second lives.
Why would Piper believe him when he said he couldn't pay, he already had to take Hales to court because he wouldn't admit he was at fault.

Bankruptcy is the only way he'd know he doesn't actually have the money.

birdcage

2,838 posts

204 months

Friday 21st June 2013
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That's sad. I thought David Piper wouldn't gap have a leg to stand on with this one.

Grenoble

50,285 posts

154 months

Friday 21st June 2013
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birdcage said:
That's sad. I thought David Piper wouldn't gap have a leg to stand on with this one.
Ouch!

freedman

5,395 posts

206 months

Friday 21st June 2013
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So did Hales pay the initial 35k demanded within 14 days of the court case ending?

If not Pipers actions are hardly surprising

V8 Fettler

7,019 posts

131 months

Saturday 22nd June 2013
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What has happened to the money that has been raised for Hales? Has it been paid to Piper and now Piper intends to bankrupt Hales? I hope that Hales continues to have a roof over this head, nasty business in his (late) middle age.

freedman

5,395 posts

206 months

Saturday 22nd June 2013
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V8 Fettler said:
What has happened to the money that has been raised for Hales? Has it been paid to Piper and now Piper intends to bankrupt Hales? I hope that Hales continues to have a roof over this head, nasty business in his (late) middle age.
This cant be the case, you cannot just bankrupt someone for the sake of it

Hales could have paid up before teh court case four just over 40k, job done

He chose to go to court, what happened there has been discussed at length but suffice to say he lost, badly. Outcom ewas that he now owed in the region of 120-130k

The judgement demanded an interim payment of 35k within 14 days IIRC

Was this forthcoming? if it was have any further payments been made?

Hales is again painting Piper out to be the bad guy, when he himself could have settled a long time ago for less than a third of the amount required now

And with the monies that have been raised for Hales, along with his income from driver coaching, Track Driver, journo work, and sale of his planes etc. Does anyone think he is going to go without aroof over his head? seriously

Its obviously not a good position for anyone to be in, but I really dont buy the whole Hales is going to be ruined by a 120k bill at all, even if it will obviously hurt him. And if I am wrong it does, exactly who's fault is that??

RYH64E

7,960 posts

243 months

Saturday 22nd June 2013
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freedman said:
Its obviously not a good position for anyone to be in, but I really dont buy the whole Hales is going to be ruined by a 120k bill at all, even if it will obviously hurt him.
I also find it hard to believe that Hales couldn't raise the money, especially as it would appear that others have offered to contribute £50k or so to the cause. I'm not suggesting that many people have £120k in cash, but I'd be amazed if he truly couldn't raise the money by selling assets.

rdjohn

6,135 posts

194 months

Saturday 22nd June 2013
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RichB said:
As you say a different take on the situation. I have noticed, particularly over the last 4 or 5 years, that almost every car featured in the classic car glossies, regardless of its practicality, is found to be for sale in one way or another elsewhere in the magazine. The same being true for Piper's Porsche.
The damage was done 22nd April 2009, in June 2012 Piper raced the car at the Sport & Collection event at Val de Vienne in France. He does nor seem to have been chasing the "fast buck" at that time.

I still find it sad that good people with great reputations have sunk to this; I believe that both parties are as bad as the other, an amicable solution should have been quickly agreed very shortly after the event.

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

216 months

Saturday 22nd June 2013
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Hales suffers from a common condition; pride. Pride is sadly pretty incompatible with court cases and short pockets.

He could have settled well before the case went to court, but his pride wouldn't let him.

He hardly left court with a good reputation and the 'solicitors' statement handed out would be funny were it not so sad. This latest pronouncement just illustrates Hales is someone who has little contrition and he's not someone I'd (purely personally) trust in a hurry.

Life Saab Itch

37,068 posts

187 months

Saturday 22nd June 2013
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10 Pence Short said:
Hales suffers from a common condition; pride. Pride is sadly pretty incompatible with court cases and short pockets.

He could have settled well before the case went to court, but his pride wouldn't let him.

He hardly left court with a good reputation and the 'solicitors' statement handed out would be funny were it not so sad. This latest pronouncement just illustrates Hales is someone who has little contrition and he's not someone I'd (purely personally) trust in a hurry.
After all this, I think I would rather trust Hales than Piper.

fcat

140 posts

207 months

Saturday 22nd June 2013
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Does anyone know what MH actually owed to whom? Obviously his own lawyers, Piper himself, Piper's lawyers? I've seen figures of around £120k for Piper's lawyers and the car damage, is this true?

Not sure how this works but presumably Piper has to get the money from MH to cover the car damage and his own lawyer's bill. MH says he offered £50k but this was refused - if the above figure is true then that amount wouldn't even cover Piper's legal bill, let alone the car damage, i.e. leaving Piper worse off than before the court case. If this is the situation then no one could really blame Piper for going down the bankruptcy route as that would probably be his only remaining option?

Graham

16,368 posts

283 months

Saturday 22nd June 2013
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Life Saab Itch said:
After all this, I think I would rather trust Hales than Piper.
+1

Hales was told it would all be taken care of, just sign here and we'll sort it out, the mags insurance said no way, then the mag dropped hales in the st like a stone and threw him to the wolves. his mistake was being to trusting. Piper will still endup with less than he's spent after bankrupting Hales as there is nothing left.

freedman

5,395 posts

206 months

Saturday 22nd June 2013
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Life Saab Itch said:
After all this, I think I would rather trust Hales than Piper.
Trust someone who wrecks your car, admits it wqas his fault when he thought the insurers would pay, then renages, totally changing his story?

Could have dealt with the whole thing for under 40k (which he would have been able to afford with ease)but chjsoe to have his day in court where he just embarrassed himself

Then obviously doesnt pay up, and is blaming Piper for trying to Bankrupt him?

Like playing the victim card, does Mr Hales


405dogvan

5,326 posts

264 months

Saturday 22nd June 2013
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freedman said:
Trust someone who wrecks your car, admits it wqas his fault when he thought the insurers would pay, then renages, totally changing his story?
I don't really think it's possible to attribute blame for something which happens to an antique racing car anymore than I'd blame a soldier for 'damaging' a gun I gave him to fight a war with - st happens...


freedman said:
Could have dealt with the whole thing for under 40k (which he would have been able to afford with ease)but chjsoe to have his day in court where he just embarrassed himself
I don't think his defense was much cop - but I disagree with your assessment that he could afford £40K as the initial demand for £35K has driven him into bankruptcy so that suggests otherwise.

Far more importantly, you're forgetting that there's a principle at work here. MH shouldn't have to pay under any circumstance IMO - either the car was insured by those organising the event (to whom the car was loaned - Octane Magazine) or the owner should have ensured that. Suggesting that journalists/race drivers should be independantly wealthy and/or covered for doing their job is slightly bizarre - would you ask a banker to take separate cover for his work - would you expect a KwikFit Fitter to cover anything which goes wrong on a car he's fitting!?

freedman said:
Then obviously doesnt pay up, and is blaming Piper for trying to Bankrupt him?
Piper has been a MASSIVE MASSIVE asshole about this - if he didn't want his precious toys damaged he should

a - not lend them to anyone
or
b - ensure they're properly insured by SOMEONE

If you cannot see that this whole situation casts a shadow over the future of these things being USED as opposed to living in the garages of overentitled assholes - you're deluded.

If you think that's a better way for things to be - you're in the wrong forum.

sanf

673 posts

171 months

Saturday 22nd June 2013
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freedman said:
Need some legal minds here

I thought you could only make someone Bankrupt if they couldnt pay what they owed

You cant do it just to punish someone as Hales is suggesting?

Of course this would have all been settled months and months ago had Hales been truthful and paid up in the first place..
When somebody is made bankrupt there are two approaches - The creditor can issue a debtor with a statutory demand for the money they are owed. Providing the debt is more than £750 bankruptcy is an option. If the stat demand has not been, settled, secured or an agreement put in place after 21 days than the bankruptcy will be enforced. The defendant can apply for the stat demand to be set aside as a defence.

Or bankruptcy can also be used as an enforcement tool, once a judgement is made - it can be used as a tool to enforce the debt. I would suspect in this case they have followed this route.

With the defences available in bankruptcy, it does tend to indicate that there may be more to this, than meets the eye. Ultimately for the creditor this can be a risky strategy. If the defendant has no assets you get nothing back against your debt. In bankruptcy an insolvency practitioner is appointed to the case. They will take all the of the defendants assets and ALL of their debts. The assets will then be sold off and each of the debtors will then get a amount - normally fairly nominal - often less than £0.10p in the £. The key thing on bankruptcy for a defendant is to have no property - as this gets pulled in as part of the assets.

So in this case - if Mark has little in the way of cash/assets then the creditor will get very little back - so if they were genuinely making offers to the defandant, then this seems a slightly bonkers strategy to get payment - unless it is being used purley to make a point, as for the next 6 years Mr Hales will find it very hard to get credit.