Bring back F5000
Discussion
mat777 said:
REALIST123 said:
Yes, as I said, all but the top line series. If the likes of F5000 were brought back they would hardly be that so would need to be silenced.
But if it was brought back to run alongside F1 on the same grid for half the races in the F1 calendar (following the ethos of the original F5k) then it wouldn't need restricting Forbes82 said:
REALIST123 said:
Where would you run them? All UK circuits now have 108db limits for all but top line series. Very often it's 105db. The days of noisy single seaters and the like are gone.
Well f5000 have raced at Croft, Don and Snet silenced (But certainly still over 108) and Silverstone, Brands and Oulton Park unsilenced in the last couple of years.
REALIST123 said:
mat777 said:
REALIST123 said:
Yes, as I said, all but the top line series. If the likes of F5000 were brought back they would hardly be that so would need to be silenced.
But if it was brought back to run alongside F1 on the same grid for half the races in the F1 calendar (following the ethos of the original F5k) then it wouldn't need restricting 
REALIST123 said:
The maximum now for Snet quiet days is 108 and there are very few noisy days with restricted numbers. All the tracks are going that way. It will only get quieter. Except for the headliners of course.
So you don't think matts fictional series would be given one of snetts noisy days? I think Snett would be biting thier hand off to get something like that to thier track.I still don't think the idea has legs mind, but i also don't think that noise limits would have anything to do with it. This series would be the headline event for most UK tracks.
BossGP the hijacked version of EuroBoss is still running. It is an unsilenced series for F1/Indycar/F3000/GP2/F5000 cars up to 2003 (last time I looked)! They don't run a race in the UK due to noise issues and the circuits wanting a high £££ for a race where in Europe they get cheaper circuit hire. A decade ago we had a healthy series in the UK with some faboulous cars.
Forbes82 said:
REALIST123 said:
The maximum now for Snet quiet days is 108 and there are very few noisy days with restricted numbers. All the tracks are going that way. It will only get quieter. Except for the headliners of course.
So you don't think matts fictional series would be given one of snetts noisy days? I think Snett would be biting thier hand off to get something like that to thier track.I still don't think the idea has legs mind, but i also don't think that noise limits would have anything to do with it. This series would be the headline event for most UK tracks.
Regarding your last point, you seem unaware of how things work for anything but the top series these days. The tracks will 'bite the hand off' any series prepared to pay to use the circuits. What those series are, how attractive they might seem to be, they will never attract spectators enough to influence the economics.
Unless you think this nostalgia dream could compete with BTCC, BSB, and the like.
REALIST123 said:
No, not at all. There are so few unrestricted weekends, easily taken up with more prestigious series that I would think it very unlikely.
Regarding your last point, you seem unaware of how things work for anything but the top series these days. The tracks will 'bite the hand off' any series prepared to pay to use the circuits. What those series are, how attractive they might seem to be, they will never attract spectators enough to influence the economics.
Unless you think this nostalgia dream could compete with BTCC, BSB, and the like.
Mattts (frankly ridiculous) idea was 900hp 1 year old F1 cars with professional drivers aimed at being a lower cost alternative to F1. Although it would never happen if it did then i'm sure that it would compete with BTCC and BSB for a tracks loud days. A1GP and Superleague are not a dissimilar idea and they had UK rounds at a few different circuits. (Don, Silv, Brands) I'm not even sure why we are arguing this point as i don't think mattt ever stated it would be a UK only series!Regarding your last point, you seem unaware of how things work for anything but the top series these days. The tracks will 'bite the hand off' any series prepared to pay to use the circuits. What those series are, how attractive they might seem to be, they will never attract spectators enough to influence the economics.
Unless you think this nostalgia dream could compete with BTCC, BSB, and the like.
Also, i think you are overstating the difficulty of getting the noisey days, yes they are not going to give them away easily but you do not have to be a top line professional series to have any chance of running unsilenced. I have been to alot of unsilenced meetings in the last few years and none of them have been professional race series.
Scuffers said:
(bit like CAT's on road based cars unless it's GT or BTCC etc)
I know you're talking about CATs rather than silencing but FWIW testing is still a total pain in the arse even if you are a BTCC runner, in fact it's arguably more of a pain as you have to change the spec of car for testing by adding silencing with all of the cost and data comparison issues that come with it.Even the BTCC support series get grief, a couple of years ago at Oulton a Friday practice session was nearly cancelled as a couple of cars were just over the noise limit. This was two or three in a grid of over 20 identical cars.
Plus I'm not actually convinced even BTCC races run unsilenced, our cars are always tested in the garages at the start of a meeting, and we have the same running restrictions as any club series.
The sort of cars being discussed (F1 included) are orders of magnitude louder than any tin top, anyone that went to a Superleague round (which vaguely fits the description) will know that the cars are painfully, deafeningly loud to the point of becoming wearisome and unpleasant even when you're sat inside a truck in the paddock if you're exposed to it for a whole weekend's running.
Perhaps even if 'noisy days' are available, circuits would be reluctant because they know a single event that isn't a huge deal like F1 could crystallise a lot more residential opposition.
Much as I miss the noise which was so much part of the appeal of the sport to me as a kid I do take precautions now to protect what is left of my hearing on the odd occasion I watch really noisy stuff like drag racing and GP cars of many vintages. I am surprised that circuits don't actually alert newcomers to the need for protection - especially for kids. A current F1 V8 is incredibly loud- as were the V10s- Pedro Diniz' Ligier Mugen managed to pierce my left eardrum in GP practice in 90s- warm ,still day and I was positioned at Club where the car was accelerating hard- CRACK in left ear and it bloody hurt!
Kind of agree that open pipes are a bad idea, and would have no issues with say 105db blanket limits.
The problem comes with variable drive by limits and how they are measured.
Anything high reving has real issues with drivebys..
You only have to look at the hoops britcar had to jump though with the 24 over the years to see how variable and silly it all gets.
The problem comes with variable drive by limits and how they are measured.
Anything high reving has real issues with drivebys..
You only have to look at the hoops britcar had to jump though with the 24 over the years to see how variable and silly it all gets.
coppice said:
Much as I miss the noise which was so much part of the appeal of the sport to me as a kid I do take precautions now to protect what is left of my hearing on the odd occasion I watch really noisy stuff like drag racing and GP cars of many vintages. I am surprised that circuits don't actually alert newcomers to the need for protection - especially for kids. A current F1 V8 is incredibly loud- as were the V10s- Pedro Diniz' Ligier Mugen managed to pierce my left eardrum in GP practice in 90s- warm ,still day and I was positioned at Club where the car was accelerating hard- CRACK in left ear and it bloody hurt!
Superleague at Donington in 2009 featured a few random members of the public obviously not accustomed to race meetings. A group of lads claimed they wouldn't be able to stop all day if the noise was going to continue like that. Those cars were - as Ollie alludes to above - really bloody loud. Certainly the noisiest race cars I've ever seen. Barring perhaps the Alfa Bimotore...mat777 said:
REALIST123 said:
mat777 said:
REALIST123 said:
Yes, as I said, all but the top line series. If the likes of F5000 were brought back they would hardly be that so would need to be silenced.
But if it was brought back to run alongside F1 on the same grid for half the races in the F1 calendar (following the ethos of the original F5k) then it wouldn't need restricting 
king idea. On the same grid?! You cannot be serious.Anyway, we've already got Caterham and Marussia for that.
Are these NASCAR engines up to the job of being a stressed chassis member - bolted to the tub or would you need an engine cradle ?
I presume the bigger tyres would also make the ride height higher and so the underfloor aero would be useless unless you run the same ride height the body was designed for... but you would have to redesign the whole suspension system to take into account the extra weight of the engine and gearbox anyways.
Might as well start with a clean sheat and go to Gould etc for a single seater.
I presume the bigger tyres would also make the ride height higher and so the underfloor aero would be useless unless you run the same ride height the body was designed for... but you would have to redesign the whole suspension system to take into account the extra weight of the engine and gearbox anyways.
Might as well start with a clean sheat and go to Gould etc for a single seater.
Forbes82 said:
Mattts (frankly ridiculous) idea was 900hp 1 year old F1 cars with professional drivers aimed at being a lower cost alternative to F1. Although it would never happen if it did then i'm sure that it would compete with BTCC and BSB for a tracks loud days. A1GP and Superleague are not a dissimilar idea and they had UK rounds at a few different circuits. (Don, Silv, Brands) I'm not even sure why we are arguing this point as i don't think mattt ever stated it would be a UK only series!
Also, i think you are overstating the difficulty of getting the noisey days, yes they are not going to give them away easily but you do not have to be a top line professional series to have any chance of running unsilenced. I have been to alot of unsilenced meetings in the last few years and none of them have been professional race series.
Noise limits and restrictions are changing all the time. You won't have seen many noisy days in the last year and it will be less in the future. MSV are in the middle of battles with local authorities at all of their circuits as we speak.Also, i think you are overstating the difficulty of getting the noisey days, yes they are not going to give them away easily but you do not have to be a top line professional series to have any chance of running unsilenced. I have been to alot of unsilenced meetings in the last few years and none of them have been professional race series.
Here's a quote from wiki
Noise Nuisance Order
Snetterton has recently come under fire for producing excessive noise. Environmental Health of Breckland Council have served a Noise Abatement Order against the circuit, which the owner Jonathan Palmer is currently appealing. The claim is that the circuit has increased its level of noise to be of an excessive nuisance to residents, especially under the ownership of Jonathan Palmer.[citation needed]
An agreement has now been reached between MSV and Breckland Council, which requires MSV to implement a range of measures to control noise caused by the running of unsilenced vehicles at the circuit, these being the noisiest vehicles that use the track. Steps agreed include limiting the number of weekends of unsilenced racing, limiting the number of unsilenced vehicles on circuit at any one time, limiting the operating times of unsilenced vehicles, building a noise barrier and improving communications with local residents.
[edit]
Considering that in 2009 Snet was limited to 31 noisy days per year, and it's below that now, it is clear where we are headed.
REALIST123 said:
Noise limits and restrictions are changing all the time. You won't have seen many noisy days in the last year and it will be less in the future. MSV are in the middle of battles with local authorities at all of their circuits as we speak.
Here's a quote from wiki
Noise Nuisance Order
Snetterton has recently come under fire for producing excessive noise. Environmental Health of Breckland Council have served a Noise Abatement Order against the circuit, which the owner Jonathan Palmer is currently appealing. The claim is that the circuit has increased its level of noise to be of an excessive nuisance to residents, especially under the ownership of Jonathan Palmer.[citation needed]
An agreement has now been reached between MSV and Breckland Council, which requires MSV to implement a range of measures to control noise caused by the running of unsilenced vehicles at the circuit, these being the noisiest vehicles that use the track. Steps agreed include limiting the number of weekends of unsilenced racing, limiting the number of unsilenced vehicles on circuit at any one time, limiting the operating times of unsilenced vehicles, building a noise barrier and improving communications with local residents.
[edit]
Considering that in 2009 Snet was limited to 31 noisy days per year, and it's below that now, it is clear where we are headed.
It seems you are worried about the worst case scenario of the future. As of this very moment motorsport is continuing unsilenced multiple times a year, 31 is actually quite alot, i believe thruxton runs to just 11 noisy days per year, and i have already heard non 'top line' cars running unsilenced there once this season. Yes there are limitations, but you don't need to be a round of the F1WC to run unsilenced.Here's a quote from wiki
Noise Nuisance Order
Snetterton has recently come under fire for producing excessive noise. Environmental Health of Breckland Council have served a Noise Abatement Order against the circuit, which the owner Jonathan Palmer is currently appealing. The claim is that the circuit has increased its level of noise to be of an excessive nuisance to residents, especially under the ownership of Jonathan Palmer.[citation needed]
An agreement has now been reached between MSV and Breckland Council, which requires MSV to implement a range of measures to control noise caused by the running of unsilenced vehicles at the circuit, these being the noisiest vehicles that use the track. Steps agreed include limiting the number of weekends of unsilenced racing, limiting the number of unsilenced vehicles on circuit at any one time, limiting the operating times of unsilenced vehicles, building a noise barrier and improving communications with local residents.
[edit]
Considering that in 2009 Snet was limited to 31 noisy days per year, and it's below that now, it is clear where we are headed.
Circuits have been battling over noise for many years now, and will continue to into the future. Perhaps in the future it will be impossible (who knows!) but at the moment its not an issue that would restrict a noisy series from getting off the ground if it ticked all the other boxes.
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