Bring back F5000
Discussion
REALIST123 said:
Only just realised what you are suggesting. What a stupid f
king idea. On the same grid?! You cannot be serious.
Anyway, we've already got Caterham and Marussia for that.
It wasn't such a stupid idea when they ran in the same races in the 70s, with a similar sized gridking idea. On the same grid?! You cannot be serious.Anyway, we've already got Caterham and Marussia for that.
John_S4x4 said:
Are these NASCAR engines up to the job of being a stressed chassis member - bolted to the tub or would you need an engine cradle ?
I presume the bigger tyres would also make the ride height higher and so the underfloor aero would be useless unless you run the same ride height the body was designed for... but you would have to redesign the whole suspension system to take into account the extra weight of the engine and gearbox anyways.
Might as well start with a clean sheat and go to Gould etc for a single seater.
I'm not sure how the old F5k had the engines fitted. But they were racing against DFV stressed block cars so either they were stressed as well, or developed a sufficiently competitive cradle system. I doubt it would be beyond the wit of a decent engineer to come up with a similar solution if required. Don't forget we're taking at least a 200hp advantage to counter any extra weight I presume the bigger tyres would also make the ride height higher and so the underfloor aero would be useless unless you run the same ride height the body was designed for... but you would have to redesign the whole suspension system to take into account the extra weight of the engine and gearbox anyways.
Might as well start with a clean sheat and go to Gould etc for a single seater.
As for the tyres - I meant wider, not taller
F1 cars now are very different to when F5000 was originally around. They are designed around whatever engine they're running and the same for the wheel/tyres. To put a NASCAR engine in (which isn't even designed to be mounted in the way an F1 engine is) would result in so much modification to the car you'd have very little of the original F1 car left. The same for changing the wheels, as someone has said it'd affect the aero and make the car horrible to drive without even more modifications. With all that redesigning and remanufacturing of parts the costs would be massive. It'd be cheaper to make a car from scratch.
Things are just too different now from when F5000 was first around.
Things are just too different now from when F5000 was first around.
Thinking about this some more, the idea of mixed grids would throw up all sorts of issues surrounding crash tests and safety, would it not? A car with a hulking great V8 out back is going to react very differently to a current F1 car in the event of a crash, so you'd have all manner of combinations to deal with.
F5000 was never designed to compete with F1 but it is a fact that some non chmpionship races were contested by both formulae. And everybody remembers the occasion when Peter Gethin beat the GP cars in a Chevron 5000 at Brands . Happy days , but very different ones and OF COURSE there is absolutely no question of the tightly regulated 2013 F1 - or any successor- admitting different machines . I would love to see big banger single seaters competing on UK tracks again- 500bhp and crude aero would be wonderful - but it is not going to happen. And if it did I cannot for the life of think why we would want to use NASCAR engines- I'd far rather see more sophisticated but still stockblock V8s from BMW, Mercedes and the rest
Forbes82 said:
It seems you are worried about the worst case scenario of the future. As of this very moment motorsport is continuing unsilenced multiple times a year, 31 is actually quite alot, i believe thruxton runs to just 11 noisy days per year, and i have already heard non 'top line' cars running unsilenced there once this season. Yes there are limitations, but you don't need to be a round of the F1WC to run unsilenced.
Circuits have been battling over noise for many years now, and will continue to into the future. Perhaps in the future it will be impossible (who knows!) but at the moment its not an issue that would restrict a noisy series from getting off the ground if it ticked all the other boxes.
define 'noisy'?Circuits have been battling over noise for many years now, and will continue to into the future. Perhaps in the future it will be impossible (who knows!) but at the moment its not an issue that would restrict a noisy series from getting off the ground if it ticked all the other boxes.
I suspect that they mean 108db, NOT open pipe cars of old.
108 is not that noisy, relatively...
mat777 said:
REALIST123 said:
Only just realised what you are suggesting. What a stupid fking idea. On the same grid?! You cannot be serious.
Anyway, we've already got Caterham and Marussia for that.
It wasn't such a stupid idea when they ran in the same races in the 70s, with a similar sized grid.king idea. On the same grid?! You cannot be serious.Anyway, we've already got Caterham and Marussia for that.
mat777 said:
John_S4x4 said:
Are these NASCAR engines up to the job of being a stressed chassis member - bolted to the tub or would you need an engine cradle ?
I presume the bigger tyres would also make the ride height higher and so the underfloor aero would be useless unless you run the same ride height the body was designed for... but you would have to redesign the whole suspension system to take into account the extra weight of the engine and gearbox anyways.
Might as well start with a clean sheat and go to Gould etc for a single seater.
I'm not sure how the old F5k had the engines fitted. But they were racing against DFV stressed block cars so either they were stressed as well, or developed a sufficiently competitive cradle system. I doubt it would be beyond the wit of a decent engineer to come up with a similar solution if required. Don't forget we're taking at least a 200hp advantage to counter any extra weight I presume the bigger tyres would also make the ride height higher and so the underfloor aero would be useless unless you run the same ride height the body was designed for... but you would have to redesign the whole suspension system to take into account the extra weight of the engine and gearbox anyways.
Might as well start with a clean sheat and go to Gould etc for a single seater.
As for the tyres - I meant wider, not taller
ksing up blown surfaces...Anything I've missed? Have one of these, which you seem to enjoy handing out to others:
Thundersports said:
There was proposed series 20 odd years ago to run redundant F3000 chassis with the Rover V8 that the TVR Tuscan series used. It got as far as Ian Flux testing a car but that was it, I feel that was a lost opportunity to re-create something similar to F5000.
IIRC it was the AJP8 engine. Agree it could have been a good idea.In Oz they used to have Formula Holden or Formula 4000, I think, with Holden stock block V8 engines in F3000 chassis. I thought something similar to that would be a good idea as well. Something that allowed the use of long life robust engines to keep costs down. Not meant as a rival to F1 but something that allowed aspiring single seater racers, and maybe good amateurs, to race without needing the £600K a year budget that British F3 demanded or the even greater budgets for GP2 etc.
Too late now. In the mean time there has been such a proliferation of formulae above F3 level that I have lost count. F4, FIA F4, GP3, GP2, Super league (gone?), A1GP (gone), FPA (gone), European F3000 (gone), F2 (gone), Auto GP (or something, in Italy), Formula Renault 3.5, Formula Nissan etc etc etc, I'm bound to have forgotten some or got a few wrong.
Well, as much as everyone poo-pooed the idea, it looks like someone was listening. F5000 might just be on the way back!
(Ok, they're bespoke cars with their own series, but still!)
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/shouty-v8s-and-re...
(Ok, they're bespoke cars with their own series, but still!)
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/shouty-v8s-and-re...
Yes - love it ; since this thread started we have seen the ongoing decline of single seater racing in UK - F4 luke warm, F,Renault has left the building I think and F3 is missing presumed dead.If you want to see a fast , noisy and scary single seater it's historics or nothing . And they are lovely- but I do wish somebody would take a BTCC type model (ie high profile national championship) with single seaters- ideally up to 4 or 5 litres- normally aspirated , not too much aero and sequential or H pattern geraboxes. Cheapish(lots common kit) , robust and very quick - make a change from parping turbo 4s in BTCC .
coppice said:
Yes - love it ; since this thread started we have seen the ongoing decline of single seater racing in UK - F4 luke warm, F,Renault has left the building I think and F3 is missing presumed dead.If you want to see a fast , noisy and scary single seater it's historics or nothing . And they are lovely- but I do wish somebody would take a BTCC type model (ie high profile national championship) with single seaters- ideally up to 4 or 5 litres- normally aspirated , not too much aero and sequential or H pattern geraboxes. Cheapish(lots common kit) , robust and very quick - make a change from parping turbo 4s in BTCC .
I'd love to see a F5000 type series as well used to love proper F3000 and got to see them race alot with the British series. With the demise in this country of Boss due to politics there really is just historics. The problem as I see it is who would participate? The career drivers who have the budgets wouldn't which really leaves guys from Monoposto or Historics and I can't see many wanting or in Monos case the money to do so.F5000(or Formula A in USA ) didn't have NASCAR engines but smaller 5 litre stockblocks. Plenty originals still left , especially in Australia/NZ. It was always a winning formula for may spectators and took a very different route to spec formulae like F Renault .You had a wide diversity of chassis , especially in early years, and engines from Chevy,Ford and some makeweight Rovers; latterly Alan Jnoes uised a 32 valve Ford 3.4 V6 to good effect . Close racing wasn't always guaranteed - but that didn't matter at all as the spectacle was mesmerising and the noise overwhelming . I remember seeing a field of F5000s at Mallory Park - low 40 second laps and a field of 20 odd cars meant your ears were battered into submission after a 40 minute or so race . Add in big slicks , but not enough to tame the power, and a gated gearchange (so lovely heel and toe noises )and it was bloody heaven....
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