RE: Pirelli's Silverstone fightback
Discussion
ewenm said:
giblet said:
AndrewEH1 said:
Can't be, there have completely different tyre widths.
I thought as much but there was a chap on twitter claiming it was a rear on the front. I assumed the R marking was for right and not rear. Maybe I'm just missing a whoosh parrot. Are tyres designed to take more force in one direction than he other, i.e. braking and acceleration exert different pressure on the tyres?
I thought that acceleration generates more pressure than braking for the rear tyres. And obviously vice versa. Harsh acceleration would lighten the load on the front tyres.
So I've assumed, although with no evidence to support it, that the rear tyres would be designed to flex less under acceleration.
Turn the tyre round and the flexing would increase.
But, as I say, this has just been an assumption on my behalf without support. I might have read something in the old days but I can't remember it.
I thought that acceleration generates more pressure than braking for the rear tyres. And obviously vice versa. Harsh acceleration would lighten the load on the front tyres.
So I've assumed, although with no evidence to support it, that the rear tyres would be designed to flex less under acceleration.
Turn the tyre round and the flexing would increase.
But, as I say, this has just been an assumption on my behalf without support. I might have read something in the old days but I can't remember it.
Agent Orange said:
P-Jay said:
I think 'Tyregate' is part of the problem here. If you believe Pirelli and Mercedes (I actually do for my sins) then the test was done to test / evaluate a design to replace the ones that spewed their guts all over Silverstone at the weekend in response to the small number of failures we've saw this year preSilervertsone - Pirelli we already working on a solution BEFORE Silverstone.
If it wasn't for the mass fall out about them using the actual f
king cars they were going to be fitted to and driven by the actual fking drivers who were going to use them then the 2013.1 tyres would have probably been used in Canada and there probably wouldn't have been any failures at the weekend.
Of course, Christian Horner had to throw his toys out of his pram, the paddock went wild and Pirelli dropped the new tyres to avoid looking like they were giving Mercedes an unfair advantage - I'm reasonably certain when RB evaluate SV's gearbox from the weekend they'll lodge the failure down to "Karma's a bh".
Yep. Lotus, Red Bull and Ferrari rejected the proposals to introduce the new tyres for Silverstone.If it wasn't for the mass fall out about them using the actual f
king cars they were going to be fitted to and driven by the actual fking drivers who were going to use them then the 2013.1 tyres would have probably been used in Canada and there probably wouldn't have been any failures at the weekend. Of course, Christian Horner had to throw his toys out of his pram, the paddock went wild and Pirelli dropped the new tyres to avoid looking like they were giving Mercedes an unfair advantage - I'm reasonably certain when RB evaluate SV's gearbox from the weekend they'll lodge the failure down to "Karma's a b
h".Much as I dislike Pirelli, they should have been more forcefull about it before tyregate, and told the FIA to STFU as it's about saftey.
Derek Smith said:
Are tyres designed to take more force in one direction than he other, i.e. braking and acceleration exert different pressure on the tyres?
I thought that acceleration generates more pressure than braking for the rear tyres. And obviously vice versa. Harsh acceleration would lighten the load on the front tyres.
So I've assumed, although with no evidence to support it, that the rear tyres would be designed to flex less under acceleration.
Turn the tyre round and the flexing would increase.
But, as I say, this has just been an assumption on my behalf without support. I might have read something in the old days but I can't remember it.
depends on the construction...I thought that acceleration generates more pressure than braking for the rear tyres. And obviously vice versa. Harsh acceleration would lighten the load on the front tyres.
So I've assumed, although with no evidence to support it, that the rear tyres would be designed to flex less under acceleration.
Turn the tyre round and the flexing would increase.
But, as I say, this has just been an assumption on my behalf without support. I might have read something in the old days but I can't remember it.
Most slicks are not handed, and if you think about it, the brakes can put a bigger torsional load on the tyres than drive can.
Not sure why you would make a slick tyre asymmetric, but I am sure they have their reasons.
Our championship has had to change compound this year, and we've had equally numerous issues. Sidewalls falling apart, center sections falling apart, but thankfully no blowouts!
The debate over what's caused it has been almost identical to Pirelli. Unfortunately, you've got three different groups of people (teams, drivers and tyre manufacturer) all blaming each other.
The debate over what's caused it has been almost identical to Pirelli. Unfortunately, you've got three different groups of people (teams, drivers and tyre manufacturer) all blaming each other.
RacerMike said:
Our championship has had to change compound this year, and we've had equally numerous issues. Sidewalls falling apart, center sections falling apart, but thankfully no blowouts!
The debate over what's caused it has been almost identical to Pirelli. Unfortunately, you've got three different groups of people (teams, drivers and tyre manufacturer) all blaming each other.
Who's the tyre manufacturer?The debate over what's caused it has been almost identical to Pirelli. Unfortunately, you've got three different groups of people (teams, drivers and tyre manufacturer) all blaming each other.
Scuffers said:
Most slicks are not handed, and if you think about it, the brakes can put a bigger torsional load on the tyres than drive can.
Not really. Fronts (in rwd cars) only have brake loads (with regards to brakes V drive).The load is grip limited. So under braking the load on the rears is less than the load that the drive produces because of "weight transfer".
So if a race tyre is rotationally directional becuase of the rubber construction, they are often different ways round front to back.
Bert
DeltaEvo2 said:
Pirelli = Right
F1 Teams = Wrong
not really no.F1 Teams = Wrong
Pirelli have always made some marginal tyres, that asides, they were the only ones that would make tyres to FIA performance spec's (as in wear out real fast)
so, ultimately, you have to blame the FIA not only for the spec of the tyres, but also they total inability to manage the situation, Pirelli to their credit saw this problem coming and tried to do the right thing, the FIA should have understood that, and told Red-Bull & Ferrari to STFU as opposed to the farce of tyregate, the results of which are where we are now.
Many years ago when I used to do kart racing the tyres we used were 'handed'. We were told to keep the correct tyres on the correct side of the kart at all times. We were told that the tread was laid onto to carcas of the tyre in much the same way that toilet paper is laid onto the roll. So if it comes unstuck in the correct direction there is no problem, but if the wrong side tyre is used and it comes apart it unrolls much like a loorole.
I assumed a similar technique is used for all 'handed' tyres. So it does matter which side the tyres are put on.
I assumed a similar technique is used for all 'handed' tyres. So it does matter which side the tyres are put on.
BertBert said:
Not really. Fronts (in rwd cars) only have brake loads (with regards to brakes V drive).
The load is grip limited. So under braking the load on the rears is less than the load that the drive produces because of "weight transfer".
So if a race tyre is rotationally directional becuase of the rubber construction, they are often different ways round front to back.
Bert
we are talking F1 rear tyres, not tin-top.The load is grip limited. So under braking the load on the rears is less than the load that the drive produces because of "weight transfer".
So if a race tyre is rotationally directional becuase of the rubber construction, they are often different ways round front to back.
Bert
rear brake loads are very much higher as peak retardation is at peak speed with peak downforce on the tyres, whereas peak drive loads are in low gears when traction is limited due to lack of downforce.
I'm suprised that so many posters are saying "they are slicks, how can they be directional"?
Loads of racing slicks are directional. Hell, even kart tyres. If you put them on the wrong way round, they behave in all sorts of crazy ways.
F1 cars tend to brake in a straight line, or close to it. They often accelerate hard whilst cornering. IMO it's fairly easy to see how a composite material (like a tyre) needs different strengths in different directions.
F1 is meant to be the pinncale of the sport, you'd think that the teams would know better than to ignore the directionality when specifically advised otherwise by the manufacturer...
Loads of racing slicks are directional. Hell, even kart tyres. If you put them on the wrong way round, they behave in all sorts of crazy ways.
F1 cars tend to brake in a straight line, or close to it. They often accelerate hard whilst cornering. IMO it's fairly easy to see how a composite material (like a tyre) needs different strengths in different directions.
F1 is meant to be the pinncale of the sport, you'd think that the teams would know better than to ignore the directionality when specifically advised otherwise by the manufacturer...
Some Gump said:
F1 is meant to be the pinncale of the sport, you'd think that the teams would know better than to ignore the directionality when specifically advised otherwise by the manufacturer...
yes and noif said teams find that the car is half a sec faster running them 'backwards' you think they would not do that?
Some Gump said:
F1 is meant to be the pinncale of the sport, you'd think that the teams would know better than to ignore the directionality when specifically advised otherwise by the manufacturer...
It's not really about directionality, it's about the inner and outer sidewalls, which are reversed if the tyres are mounted to the wheels backwards. Pirelli didn't advise the teams not to do this, in fact, we've already realised that Pirelli themselves have to have mounted the tyres backwards so cannot have objected to teams doing so. It's only now that Pirelli will forbid the reverse fitment of tyres, and in their press release they say they underestimated the potential side-effects of that practice.Directionality, though, Pirelli have no direct control over and running the tyres anti-directional will probably remain permitted, as the inner/outer sidewalls are still correctly oriented.
Donkey62 said:
woof said:
100% correct.
Pirelli fit all the tyres for the teams and each tyre is bar coded to a specific driver.
Although teams could request left tyre to be mounted on say right rim because Pirelli had absolutely no problems with doing that before Silverstone, for Pirelli to now say tyres are asyemetrical is total BS.Pirelli fit all the tyres for the teams and each tyre is bar coded to a specific driver.
The tyre pressures FIA should enforce absolute minimum tyre pressure some teams ran below 12psi at other circuits, a fart would have more pressure than that.
McSam said:
t's not really about directionality, it's about the inner and outer sidewalls, which are reversed if the tyres are mounted to the wheels backwards. Pirelli didn't advise the teams not to do this, in fact, we've already realised that Pirelli themselves have to have mounted the tyres backwards so cannot have objected to teams doing so. It's only now that Pirelli will forbid the reverse fitment of tyres, and in their press release they say they underestimated the potential side-effects of that practice.
Directionality, though, Pirelli have no direct control over and running the tyres anti-directional will probably remain permitted, as the inner/outer sidewalls are still correctly oriented.
Erm...read the press release again :-)Directionality, though, Pirelli have no direct control over and running the tyres anti-directional will probably remain permitted, as the inner/outer sidewalls are still correctly oriented.
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