The 2014 WRC Thread
Discussion
to answer a few of the questions:
re: Porsche's - interesting to have them but not make or break for me. The current cars are fine, look good, but could do with being more noisy and of course more power. For those with misty eyes to the past, group B was Metro's, 205's and Delta's, apart from the GTI 205's they were hugely uninspiring road cars. If, as has been mentioned, that Hyundai produce a 4wd i20 then that will be a modern day Impreza.
As for pace notes, the drivers are driving to the conditions and the notes, they have gravel note crews go through the stages a couple of hours before checking things. But here is the point, Latvala's final off, happened on the same corner as Mikkelson spun. On average Mikkelson is around 0.3 - 0.5s per km slower, that translates to approx 0.5 km/h slower at any one point on the stage. That is almost undetectable. The difference in this case is that the extra 0.5 km/h of Latvala sent him over the edge. I think we can assume that they are driving to the conditions. If you want them to drive at a more measured pace then you'd need 5 days and 600 stage miles per WRC event.
However driving down the hill to find a way out, when your screen is covered with vino is not particularly sensible. Both Ogier and Latvala nearly drove into spectators cars doing this, and who can forget Solberg knocking down an electricity pilon in France a couple of years ago. Those type of things do have to stop as they are unneccesarily dangerous
And as for Elfyn, a modern day Burnsie
re: Porsche's - interesting to have them but not make or break for me. The current cars are fine, look good, but could do with being more noisy and of course more power. For those with misty eyes to the past, group B was Metro's, 205's and Delta's, apart from the GTI 205's they were hugely uninspiring road cars. If, as has been mentioned, that Hyundai produce a 4wd i20 then that will be a modern day Impreza.
As for pace notes, the drivers are driving to the conditions and the notes, they have gravel note crews go through the stages a couple of hours before checking things. But here is the point, Latvala's final off, happened on the same corner as Mikkelson spun. On average Mikkelson is around 0.3 - 0.5s per km slower, that translates to approx 0.5 km/h slower at any one point on the stage. That is almost undetectable. The difference in this case is that the extra 0.5 km/h of Latvala sent him over the edge. I think we can assume that they are driving to the conditions. If you want them to drive at a more measured pace then you'd need 5 days and 600 stage miles per WRC event.
However driving down the hill to find a way out, when your screen is covered with vino is not particularly sensible. Both Ogier and Latvala nearly drove into spectators cars doing this, and who can forget Solberg knocking down an electricity pilon in France a couple of years ago. Those type of things do have to stop as they are unneccesarily dangerous
And as for Elfyn, a modern day Burnsie
Edited by Jerry Can on Wednesday 27th August 09:51
Jerry Can said:
to answer a few of the questions:
re: Porsche's - interesting to have them but not make or break for me. The current cars are fine, look good, but could do with being more noisy and of course more power. For those with misty eyes to the past, group B was Metro's, 205's and Delta's, apart from the GTI 205's they were hugely uninspiring road cars. If, as has been mentioned, that Hyundai produce a 4wd i20 then that will be a modern day Impreza.
]
I disagree - the current cars are boring as hell - I have been sat here for 5 mins trying to put into words what I think is wrong with the current cars - here goes but it may not make much sense - the current WRC cars are a 4WD version of their boring superminis that the manufacturers will not sell you - Ken Blocks Gymkhana Fiesta is still a Fiesta but it is much more exciting to watch and listen to. The Group B cars were exciting, OK they were based on boring cars - but they were noisy and exciting and they made you sit up and take notice.re: Porsche's - interesting to have them but not make or break for me. The current cars are fine, look good, but could do with being more noisy and of course more power. For those with misty eyes to the past, group B was Metro's, 205's and Delta's, apart from the GTI 205's they were hugely uninspiring road cars. If, as has been mentioned, that Hyundai produce a 4wd i20 then that will be a modern day Impreza.
]
In other words, the excitement of the Group B cars rubbed off on the standard road versions - Group A holomogation cars - they were similar to what you could buy - you could tell everyone you had a rally car just like what that there Colin McRea drives.
So as I see it - you can have very exciting cars that may be some way off what you can buy but gives the brands that exciting aura, or rally something that appears to be very close to what you can buy so everyone wants one. Don't rally something you can't buy yet isn't exciting enough to give the road going cars that aura.
It's not just about the cars though - most events are boring and the drivers are not that interesting.
Emeye said:
I disagree - the current cars are boring as hell - I have been sat here for 5 mins trying to put into words what I think is wrong with the current cars - here goes but it may not make much sense - the current WRC cars are a 4WD version of their boring superminis that the manufacturers will not sell you - Ken Blocks Gymkhana Fiesta is still a Fiesta but it is much more exciting to watch and listen to. The Group B cars were exciting, OK they were based on boring cars - but they were noisy and exciting and they made you sit up and take notice.
In other words, the excitement of the Group B cars rubbed off on the standard road versions - Group A holomogation cars - they were similar to what you could buy - you could tell everyone you had a rally car just like what that there Colin McRea drives.
So as I see it - you can have very exciting cars that may be some way off what you can buy but gives the brands that exciting aura, or rally something that appears to be very close to what you can buy so everyone wants one. Don't rally something you can't buy yet isn't exciting enough to give the road going cars that aura.
It's not just about the cars though - most events are boring and the drivers are not that interesting.
in my previous point I did concede that the current cars could do with having more power, they appear to sound a little strangulated currently. I think if they can rev harder, and have more power they will be a lot better. Your other points I think are wishful thinking, gone are the days when a potential car manufacturer will sink billions into developing a rally special to make 5000 of them. Equally, where can I buy an F1 Mercedes like Lewis drives?In other words, the excitement of the Group B cars rubbed off on the standard road versions - Group A holomogation cars - they were similar to what you could buy - you could tell everyone you had a rally car just like what that there Colin McRea drives.
So as I see it - you can have very exciting cars that may be some way off what you can buy but gives the brands that exciting aura, or rally something that appears to be very close to what you can buy so everyone wants one. Don't rally something you can't buy yet isn't exciting enough to give the road going cars that aura.
It's not just about the cars though - most events are boring and the drivers are not that interesting.
However I do wonder what people will be rallying in 20 years time. There are very few suitable 4wd cars around, they are also extremely complex and beyond the technical know how of most clubmen. You cold potentially ban 4wd at club level, and then that could open up a whole plethora of potentially competitive cars, but they are all going to be bland jap crap or euroboxes. However we desparately need to move on from Escorts Mk2's. It keeps rallying rooted to the past. Although I appreciate that these cars and others of a similar vintage are a lot easier to work on.
I agree about the rallies, they do need to be individual to the country, short rallies, long rallies, clover leaf, not clover leaf, mixed surface, gravel or tar. Mix it up as much as possible. The drivers are interesting, if only because rally doesn't have blanket Autosport Fanboi coverage. Although it is amusing to hear Kris Meeke speak with his 'foreign accent syndrome' frenglish
Edited by Jerry Can on Wednesday 27th August 12:10
Allyc85 said:
Any way Hirvonen's manager has confirmed that Rally GB will be his last for Msport. No surprise really, he has been very poor this year.
Bit harsh I think - sure he hasn't been as competitive as previous years, but I don't think the car is helping. He's still 6th in the championship, and his only retirements have been from mechanical issues. He's not throwing it off the road for fun like certain other drivers.Did they say if he is retiring, or has he had an offer from another team?
Max_Torque said:
Watching the shakedown crash, isn't it about time that the FIA made modification to the proddy spec door structure illegal?
Time after time you see doors popping open when these cars crash, and whilst the cage and the carbon crash structure provide the majority of the intrusion protection, having the door there, with it's std door bars (cut out for WRC cars in the name of weight reduction!) could add a significant extra level of side impact protection?
As I understand it, the FIA mandated introduction of the 'door bar' elements of the cage that protrude into the door aperture - to add additional side impact protection following a number of very serious accidents - resulted in modification to the door itself being unavoidable in order to create the required amount of space between the crew and the door barsTime after time you see doors popping open when these cars crash, and whilst the cage and the carbon crash structure provide the majority of the intrusion protection, having the door there, with it's std door bars (cut out for WRC cars in the name of weight reduction!) could add a significant extra level of side impact protection?
mfmman said:
As I understand it, the FIA mandated introduction of the 'door bar' elements of the cage that protrude into the door aperture - to add additional side impact protection following a number of very serious accidents - resulted in modification to the door itself being unavoidable in order to create the required amount of space between the crew and the door bars
They discussed this last night on Midweek Motorsport. Are speeds now too high? Is the crash test rigorous enough for WRC, GT cars?Alex Langheck said:
mfmman said:
As I understand it, the FIA mandated introduction of the 'door bar' elements of the cage that protrude into the door aperture - to add additional side impact protection following a number of very serious accidents - resulted in modification to the door itself being unavoidable in order to create the required amount of space between the crew and the door bars
They discussed this last night on Midweek Motorsport. Are speeds now too high? Is the crash test rigorous enough for WRC, GT cars?You can make the cars stronger up to a point (but make them too strong and the occupants will end up with serious injuries due to the lack of energy absorbsion)
I was concerned to see the footage of the navigators door being peeled off during the accident on last weeks WRC event, but with the cage design now being optimised to reduce side intrusion, I think there's only so much that can be done to make the cars a lot safer.
As regards the cars being boring, not noisy/spectacular enough, I really do beg to differ, I spectated on Rally Germany last year, and found how spectacular they were really depended on where you watched them from.
On the first stage on the first evening we watched at an open 90 left : Dull.
We walked to a section where they were on a straight flat in sixth : Better, but still a tad dull.
The following day saw us on downhill approach to a hairpin left. Let me say here and now that the approach was flat in sixth, and watching the top four or five drivers choosing their braking point and clipping the apex with almost inch perfect (literally) precision, was something I'll never forget.
Whilst the Group B cars may have been awesome, watch any old YT clips of them negotiating a hairpin such as I've just described, and they spent seconds shunting backwards and forwards to enable them to get around something a modern WRC car does with ease,
The level of commitment required to drive a modern WRC car competitively is an awesome spectacle to watch ( but only if you chose your vantage point carefully)
Sad to hear that the first ever WRC drivers champion Bjorn Waldegaard has passed away after illness.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115625
RIP
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115625
RIP
Rally Aus this weekend... as close at it gets to a local round for me these days unfortunately!
Will be interesting to see Paddon's pace on familiar roads, he often does well there - best result of 6th overall in the old PWRC Impreza in 2011.
Will be interesting to see Paddon's pace on familiar roads, he often does well there - best result of 6th overall in the old PWRC Impreza in 2011.
Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 10th September 01:21
mfmman said:
Max_Torque said:
Watching the shakedown crash, isn't it about time that the FIA made modification to the proddy spec door structure illegal?
Time after time you see doors popping open when these cars crash, and whilst the cage and the carbon crash structure provide the majority of the intrusion protection, having the door there, with it's std door bars (cut out for WRC cars in the name of weight reduction!) could add a significant extra level of side impact protection?
As I understand it, the FIA mandated introduction of the 'door bar' elements of the cage that protrude into the door aperture - to add additional side impact protection following a number of very serious accidents - resulted in modification to the door itself being unavoidable in order to create the required amount of space between the crew and the door barsTime after time you see doors popping open when these cars crash, and whilst the cage and the carbon crash structure provide the majority of the intrusion protection, having the door there, with it's std door bars (cut out for WRC cars in the name of weight reduction!) could add a significant extra level of side impact protection?
Slippydiff said:
I don't see a problem. Ogier walked away from his big shunt last weekend, when it could have been horrific. The Kube was probably going slower when he crashed his Skoda some years ago, but his injury/ies were horrific.
You can make the cars stronger up to a point (but make them too strong and the occupants will end up with serious injuries due to the lack of energy absorbsion)
I was concerned to see the footage of the navigators door being peeled off during the accident on last weeks WRC event, but with the cage design now being optimised to reduce side intrusion, I think there's only so much that can be done to make the cars a lot safer.
Having opened and closed the car doors many many times during rally GB over the last few years I can confirm the doors are pretty much just bits of plastic/aluminium with a carbon doorcard on the inside for the roadbooks and pace notes to fit into. they offer very little real side impact protection like a road cars door would. The doorcard is even moulded to fit around the cross beam of the cage, so the cage almost becomes one with the doorcard, as seen in the pic.You can make the cars stronger up to a point (but make them too strong and the occupants will end up with serious injuries due to the lack of energy absorbsion)
I was concerned to see the footage of the navigators door being peeled off during the accident on last weeks WRC event, but with the cage design now being optimised to reduce side intrusion, I think there's only so much that can be done to make the cars a lot safer.
The only way to maybe prevent the doors from opening in a roll is to make them sealed shell's like nascars. But in all honesty that's not practical for a wrc car due to the nature of accidents they have! quick and easy exit is required from an upside down fiery rally car!! made easier btw if your doors flung off during the crash
And if you think WRCar doors are thin, try closing a Darrians without it wobbling flimsily in your hand!
RE the heavy handed Marshals.
As an active marshal myself, I have absolutely no idea what those marhsals were doing!? tbh I wouldn't even count them as marshals, but tabbard carriers. nothing more than freeloading spectators.
I've had the displeasure of being allocated one on my junction on WRGB a few years ago. he knew f all about the safety side of it, and showed no interest in finding out what to do or help when a car went off. so he was asked not to come back out on duty for the afternoon stages. he thought this was a blessing as he could stand by us and get some closer action picks, only to be extremely disappointed when his mate dumped him in the speccy area with the paying speccys!
I had a quick read of Motorsport news in the shop earlier and noticed the FIA are still trying to get the final stage shootout to go ahead
from what I remember it will be groups of 4 fighting for the win i.e.-
top 4 fighting for 1st
5-8 fighting for 5th
9-12 fighting for 9th and so on down the order.
What a load of b
ks! 
And championship leader will run 1st on the road for the first 2 days! It's just too much of a handicap, and I see all 3 VW drivers have appealed to the FIA to stop it going ahead. The VW boss Is up for it though..
The qualifying stage was best IMO, it was a really good build up to the event, and gave some mixed tactics.
The qualifying stage was best IMO, it was a really good build up to the event, and gave some mixed tactics.
Allyc85 said:
And championship leader will run 1st on the road for the first 2 days! It's just too much of a handicap...
Its only a handicap on dry gravel rallies though - the VWs have gained some big advantages from running first on a few events this year.Of course they only mention it when its a disadvantage...
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