RE: Closed road motorsport back on?
Discussion
deadmau5 said:
I'm unable to paste this into an email, can someone link to just a plain text version please ?!RoverP6B said:
I don't care what the Irish do: the state our roads are in, potholed, nasty cambers, vegetation overhanging, they are not safe to be raced upon. I'm a keen driver and I've been known to 'make progress', but the stuff I could do even just three years ago simply isn't possible to do safely now.
Most country & B roads are NSL correct? you'll find that the average speed of road rally cars isn't far exceeding this, and often on long flat out sections chicanes are put in to slow them down, for their safety!RoverP6B said:
Tell that to the thousands of Surrey residents trapped in their homes by cycling events who were never made aware of anything happening until they found blockades across their driveways or at the ends of their roads.
RoverP6B said:
I don't care how little variety there is or what they have the budget to do. Tracks (be they tarmac or forest mud) are for motorsport, roads are for transport. Any road closure is an imposition on the people relying on it to go about their lawful business and who usually take no interest in motorsport. Forcing them to plan their affairs around such events (in my wife's case, this involved cancelling a great deal of work, with no compensation for the ensuing loss of income) is simply not good enough.
again, motosrport road closures facilitate locals needs to get around, roads closed during competion are open between the live stages, allowing the residents to come and go as they please.I dont know whether people affected during Wales Rally are reimbursed financially, tho i doubt it unless the route actually takes in part of their land. No one is forced to be inconvenienced, im sure a few people affected by WRGB are unhappy with it, but it happens regardless!
RoverP6B said:
Did I say F&F? No, I said street racing, as in racing/rallying on public roads. You seem to think we all live in large towns, but this is not the case at all. Many of us live in country villages (mine now grown into a small town and just on the very edge of the London suburbs - it's all 30s semis north of here and fields to the south) and you won't find anywhere in the south (or many other parts) of England which is sufficiently sparsely populated to be able to close roads for sporting events without inconveniencing the locals.
t drag racing billy in his punto down the high street!I don't assume everyone lives in large towns, I in fact live in a tiny village in the Welsh Valleys, for my nearest town or supermarket I have to drive for 30mins over the mountains in either direction, if I want anything other than the basics.
Closing any public road will inconvenience someone somewhere! you simply cant please everyone!! as I'm guessing you know too well!?
With reference to another post you made in this thread about everyone on the Olympic cycle route being pissed that it was taking part where it was, I honestly cant see everyone being unhappy with it! and I find it hard to believe that local trade didn't make anything from it either?? not one of the spectators bought a bottle of pop or a bar of chocolate for the entire time they were there watching the race?? perhaps the traders expected a bumper takings day during the race but found it just a normal day in the end?
perhaps the ones who were annoyed with it were friends of yours who shared your feelings on the whole thing??
I don't mean to be personal, but the answers you've given on this topic make you out to be worse than Victor Meldrew! and he was a right miserable b
d!!Can I interject a note of caution about this and point out something which seems to have escaped most peoples attention, probably due to a general lack of understanding about how motor sport works in this country.
Basically events are run by clubs, with a few exceptions, most Motor clubs who want to run Stage Rallies and have the resources to do so already run one (or two). A closed road Stage Rally, of the fashion of the Jim Clarke (for example) is a magnificent spectacle, but it is massively expensive to put on, it is unlikely that may clubs in the UK could afford to do it. (I 'think' B&DMC have to get outside support and have come close to having it go bust a few times). So the only way we would see any more than a small number (2 or 3 perhaps) of new events if the clubs joined forces and probably dropped off their own events to raise the funds and support. So we would likely end up with fewer Stage Rallies than we do now.
There is also another potential downside to this idea, again not spoken of here, never likely to be mentioned in Parliament, but certainly felt by those who could be affected. We already have Motor Sport on the Public Roads, we have had since the dawn of motoring, but more particularly since the 50's. It's called Road Rallying. Somebody mentioned a Sprint from Bala to Vyrnwy well all I can say is wake up, that route is regularly used now and the top boys will be flying over there, like they always did. It's legal (well OK some of the speeds might not be!), it's sanctioned by the DOE via the MSA, it has to have the permission of the residents and requires the Police to be understanding (and in truth turn a blind eye now and again). There are well over a hundred events every year, it's cheap to enter and easily accessible for the man in the street..... and yet it could get stopped very very easily. All it would need is the MSA, DOE, local Government, Police or any one of them to decide that now there is closed road motor sport, with all it's benefits, offset against all it's downsides for some of the residents. Why do we need to upset the locals even more by allowing it on open roads.
I can see a situation where we exchange a few good Stage Rallies for a few even better Stage Rallies, all of which will only be entered by those well off enough to do so, but we will loose a whole branch of grass roots motor sport. That would be a crying shame.
Basically events are run by clubs, with a few exceptions, most Motor clubs who want to run Stage Rallies and have the resources to do so already run one (or two). A closed road Stage Rally, of the fashion of the Jim Clarke (for example) is a magnificent spectacle, but it is massively expensive to put on, it is unlikely that may clubs in the UK could afford to do it. (I 'think' B&DMC have to get outside support and have come close to having it go bust a few times). So the only way we would see any more than a small number (2 or 3 perhaps) of new events if the clubs joined forces and probably dropped off their own events to raise the funds and support. So we would likely end up with fewer Stage Rallies than we do now.
There is also another potential downside to this idea, again not spoken of here, never likely to be mentioned in Parliament, but certainly felt by those who could be affected. We already have Motor Sport on the Public Roads, we have had since the dawn of motoring, but more particularly since the 50's. It's called Road Rallying. Somebody mentioned a Sprint from Bala to Vyrnwy well all I can say is wake up, that route is regularly used now and the top boys will be flying over there, like they always did. It's legal (well OK some of the speeds might not be!), it's sanctioned by the DOE via the MSA, it has to have the permission of the residents and requires the Police to be understanding (and in truth turn a blind eye now and again). There are well over a hundred events every year, it's cheap to enter and easily accessible for the man in the street..... and yet it could get stopped very very easily. All it would need is the MSA, DOE, local Government, Police or any one of them to decide that now there is closed road motor sport, with all it's benefits, offset against all it's downsides for some of the residents. Why do we need to upset the locals even more by allowing it on open roads.
I can see a situation where we exchange a few good Stage Rallies for a few even better Stage Rallies, all of which will only be entered by those well off enough to do so, but we will loose a whole branch of grass roots motor sport. That would be a crying shame.
velocemitch said:
Can I interject a note of caution about this and point out something which seems to have escaped most peoples attention, probably due to a general lack of understanding about how motor sport works in this country.
Basically events are run by clubs, with a few exceptions, most Motor clubs who want to run Stage Rallies and have the resources to do so already run one (or two). A closed road Stage Rally, of the fashion of the Jim Clarke (for example) is a magnificent spectacle, but it is massively expensive to put on, it is unlikely that may clubs in the UK could afford to do it. (I 'think' B&DMC have to get outside support and have come close to having it go bust a few times). So the only way we would see any more than a small number (2 or 3 perhaps) of new events if the clubs joined forces and probably dropped off their own events to raise the funds and support. So we would likely end up with fewer Stage Rallies than we do now.
There is also another potential downside to this idea, again not spoken of here, never likely to be mentioned in Parliament, but certainly felt by those who could be affected. We already have Motor Sport on the Public Roads, we have had since the dawn of motoring, but more particularly since the 50's. It's called Road Rallying. Somebody mentioned a Sprint from Bala to Vyrnwy well all I can say is wake up, that route is regularly used now and the top boys will be flying over there, like they always did. It's legal (well OK some of the speeds might not be!), it's sanctioned by the DOE via the MSA, it has to have the permission of the residents and requires the Police to be understanding (and in truth turn a blind eye now and again). There are well over a hundred events every year, it's cheap to enter and easily accessible for the man in the street..... and yet it could get stopped very very easily. All it would need is the MSA, DOE, local Government, Police or any one of them to decide that now there is closed road motor sport, with all it's benefits, offset against all it's downsides for some of the residents. Why do we need to upset the locals even more by allowing it on open roads.
I can see a situation where we exchange a few good Stage Rallies for a few even better Stage Rallies, all of which will only be entered by those well off enough to do so, but we will loose a whole branch of grass roots motor sport. That would be a crying shame.
I completely see your point, but here in the south east we have some fantastic stretches of road which could be used. You need no more than 2 miles, and maybe just 1?? There are lots of lanes which could be closed a couple of times per year and affect nobody whatsoever, with ample viewing areas in the fields and farms etc. to host the events. I bet too our French and continental buddies would love to pop over the channel and participate, bringing money to the ferries, hotels, restaurants, general local economy, fuel duty and club coffers. I really cannot see how it will affect anyone in a negative way. Basically events are run by clubs, with a few exceptions, most Motor clubs who want to run Stage Rallies and have the resources to do so already run one (or two). A closed road Stage Rally, of the fashion of the Jim Clarke (for example) is a magnificent spectacle, but it is massively expensive to put on, it is unlikely that may clubs in the UK could afford to do it. (I 'think' B&DMC have to get outside support and have come close to having it go bust a few times). So the only way we would see any more than a small number (2 or 3 perhaps) of new events if the clubs joined forces and probably dropped off their own events to raise the funds and support. So we would likely end up with fewer Stage Rallies than we do now.
There is also another potential downside to this idea, again not spoken of here, never likely to be mentioned in Parliament, but certainly felt by those who could be affected. We already have Motor Sport on the Public Roads, we have had since the dawn of motoring, but more particularly since the 50's. It's called Road Rallying. Somebody mentioned a Sprint from Bala to Vyrnwy well all I can say is wake up, that route is regularly used now and the top boys will be flying over there, like they always did. It's legal (well OK some of the speeds might not be!), it's sanctioned by the DOE via the MSA, it has to have the permission of the residents and requires the Police to be understanding (and in truth turn a blind eye now and again). There are well over a hundred events every year, it's cheap to enter and easily accessible for the man in the street..... and yet it could get stopped very very easily. All it would need is the MSA, DOE, local Government, Police or any one of them to decide that now there is closed road motor sport, with all it's benefits, offset against all it's downsides for some of the residents. Why do we need to upset the locals even more by allowing it on open roads.
I can see a situation where we exchange a few good Stage Rallies for a few even better Stage Rallies, all of which will only be entered by those well off enough to do so, but we will loose a whole branch of grass roots motor sport. That would be a crying shame.
P6Bs comments are like logging on to a baking website and saying you don't like cake, so nobody should eat cake. If nothing else his comments have shown how much support the genuine motoring enthusiasts have for this to happen.
I'd agree with that, densely populated areas like the SE could make Sprints and Hill Climbs work, but not circuit racing or Rallying. You need much more space for that, Wales, The NE of England, NW of England and the extreme SW would work, but only at the expense of other popular events in those areas.
some of my road rallying friends were discussing this on facebook last night, the proposal has split decisions for them, some fear it will kill off road rallying as we know it now, others think it wont change a thing.
Some have argued that allowing road closures will affect the road rallying in the fact that they will lose their trusted routes to closed stage events, killing the sport.
However others have argued that it wont affect Road Rallying die to the fact that a closed road event is going to cost more than the £50odd a RR cost. that and the fact that Stage prepped cars are banned under RR regulations and vice versa for stage rallies.
The likely effect will be events like the Jim Clark moving further south with stages and ending up a week long event.
There may be a small effect on Road Rallies as far as fewer events happening as clubs decide to stretch to closed road sprints/hillclimbs. but the knock on effect being the Road Rallies that do run will gain larger entries as competitors have less events to enter.
Were not going to know the true impact on Rallying in the mainland uk until the proposal gets more realistic. by then it may be too late for some, but the beginning of new championships for other.
we just wont know until something or nothing happens
Some have argued that allowing road closures will affect the road rallying in the fact that they will lose their trusted routes to closed stage events, killing the sport.
However others have argued that it wont affect Road Rallying die to the fact that a closed road event is going to cost more than the £50odd a RR cost. that and the fact that Stage prepped cars are banned under RR regulations and vice versa for stage rallies.
The likely effect will be events like the Jim Clark moving further south with stages and ending up a week long event.
There may be a small effect on Road Rallies as far as fewer events happening as clubs decide to stretch to closed road sprints/hillclimbs. but the knock on effect being the Road Rallies that do run will gain larger entries as competitors have less events to enter.
Were not going to know the true impact on Rallying in the mainland uk until the proposal gets more realistic. by then it may be too late for some, but the beginning of new championships for other.
we just wont know until something or nothing happens
velocemitch said:
I'd agree with that, densely populated areas like the SE could make Sprints and Hill Climbs work...
And that's the key point, this Rover fella is purely worried about happening where he lives in Surrey, there's a lot of roads not far from where I live in Staffordshire that could be shut without bothering anyone and even more further North. There's the solution - the future's bright, the future's northern. 
DanielSan said:
velocemitch said:
I'd agree with that, densely populated areas like the SE could make Sprints and Hill Climbs work...
And that's the key point, this Rover fella is purely worried about happening where he lives in Surrey, there's a lot of roads not far from where I live in Staffordshire that could be shut without bothering anyone and even more further North. There's the solution - the future's bright, the future's northern. Centurion07 said:
DanielSan said:
velocemitch said:
I'd agree with that, densely populated areas like the SE could make Sprints and Hill Climbs work...
And that's the key point, this Rover fella is purely worried about happening where he lives in Surrey, there's a lot of roads not far from where I live in Staffordshire that could be shut without bothering anyone and even more further North. There's the solution - the future's bright, the future's northern. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqbfFfZA2-0
Centurion07 said:
No, no, no; we're all in agreement that as many of these events as we can manage are to be organised on his doorstep. Hopefully he lives in a small 5 or 6 house cul-de-sac so we can organise a series of Top-Fuel drag races there. Just the burnouts will be satisfying enough for me.
Quite like last idea. Happy to have a similar thing in my street also to ps off all the miserable old bds round here. Alex Langheck said:
Exactly!! It's how Motorsport started; the first great races were from town to town. The most famous Rally stage is a public road; from Moulinet to La Bollene-Vesubie, aka Col de Turini. The TT Races are on public roads. I could go on.....
Only in the UK mainland are public roads not for Motorsport (apart from the Jim Clark Rally) - and hopefully this will change. Just look at some of the European Hillclimbs - awesome events; look at the Ypres Rally...both bring the crowds out in thousands. If done correctly, this could be a massive boost to British Motorsport, and hopefully to Rallying.
If you're a Motorsport fan - then get filling the form in!!
What it WAS a century ago, when car ownership was very much an exclusive thing for the very rich (my grandparents ran a Minerva at the time - unfortunately I think their petrolheadedness is where all the money went!). Nowadays, the disruption caused by road closures is simply intolerable. It's bad for convenience and bad for the economy.Only in the UK mainland are public roads not for Motorsport (apart from the Jim Clark Rally) - and hopefully this will change. Just look at some of the European Hillclimbs - awesome events; look at the Ypres Rally...both bring the crowds out in thousands. If done correctly, this could be a massive boost to British Motorsport, and hopefully to Rallying.
If you're a Motorsport fan - then get filling the form in!!
Furyblade_Lee said:
Mr. P6B I respect your right to an opinion, but to state you are a DRIVING enthusiast NOT a motorsport enthusiast? A little peek in your garage and I beg to differ! You probably don't live too far from me, I hearby give you an open invitation to come and try a few of my motoring toys and see if we can get some enthusiasm up for you!!!! :-)
Eh? Nothing I've had has much motorsport pedigree, and I'm firmly with James May in saying that the Nurburgring obsession is ruining road cars... I like driving when on the right road, but 99% of the time it's just another chore that no car could ever make entertaining. Sports-wise, I can think of far more entertaining ways of converting petrol into noise and trophies than waking villages up on Sundays - competition aerobatics, for a start. I haven't watched motorsport since Paddy Hopkirk won the Monte Carlo fif... ahem, quite a few years ago.DanielSan said:
And that's the key point, this Rover fella is purely worried about happening where he lives in Surrey, there's a lot of roads not far from where I live in Staffordshire that could be shut without bothering anyone and even more further North. There's the solution - the future's bright, the future's northern.
It's not just the SE either. Not a lot of space in the part of Scotland I'm originally from. Staffordshire, Northern? Back in yer box, damn Sassenach! 
Edited by RoverP6B on Monday 3rd March 03:39
RyanTank said:
Most country & B roads are NSL correct? you'll find that the average speed of road rally cars isn't far exceeding this, and often on long flat out sections chicanes are put in to slow them down, for their safety!
Yeah, NSL in theory, the reality is they're rarely good for 40mph (and 40mph limits are now being put in place on most - about bloody time too). RyanTank said:
I cant speak for PR of cycle events as i have nothing to do with cyclists. However i know for a fact any motosrport taking part on public highway has to be PR'd! you may find that the bike race was too, on those flimsy laminate pages stuck to lampposts in the street that no one bothers to read!
If there WAS any PR, they hid it bloody well. There was certainly no effort whatsoever made to actually CONTACT local residents, and the reason is very clear: if they had, we'd have told them in no uncertain terms where they could shove their bike race.RyanTank said:
again, motorsport road closures facilitate locals needs to get around, roads closed during competion are open between the live stages, allowing the residents to come and go as they please. I dont know whether people affected during Wales Rally are reimbursed financially, tho i doubt it unless the route actually takes in part of their land. No one is forced to be inconvenienced, im sure a few people affected by WRGB are unhappy with it, but it happens regardless!
Not in my experience: with main roads all over Surrey being closed, to go about our usual weekend work would have involved a 30-mile detour in each direction (for a 15-mile journey). "No-one is forced to be inconvenienced"? What rubbish.RyanTank said:
I don't assume everyone lives in large towns, I in fact live in a tiny village in the Welsh Valleys, for my nearest town or supermarket I have to drive for 30mins over the mountains in either direction, if I want anything other than the basics. Closing any public road will inconvenience someone somewhere! you simply cant please everyone!! as I'm guessing you know too well!? With reference to another post you made in this thread about everyone on the Olympic cycle route being pissed that it was taking part where it was, I honestly cant see everyone being unhappy with it! and I find it hard to believe that local trade didn't make anything from it either?? not one of the spectators bought a bottle of pop or a bar of chocolate for the entire time they were there watching the race?? perhaps the traders expected a bumper takings day during the race but found it just a normal day in the end?
perhaps the ones who were annoyed with it were friends of yours who shared your feelings on the whole thing??
Right! Here, it was a hell of a lot of people (thousands) trapped in their homes, unable to get anywhere all weekend. The opposition campaign is not something I'm involved with as I don't have the time, but it's pretty big and strong, with a lot of people behind it. We're not talking little pockets of nimbyism, we're talking entire communities hacked off at the lack of consultation and ensuing economic catastrophe. Each time there's been a cycle race here, trade has absolutely DIED. The spectators, such as there were, didn't spend much, and as many locals as were able took off elsewhere. It nearly put a few pubs out of business.perhaps the ones who were annoyed with it were friends of yours who shared your feelings on the whole thing??
RoverP6B said:
The opposition campaign is not something I'm involved with as I don't have the time..
These events must seriously impact your day-to-day existence then since you can't be arsed to help out the people who ARE prepared to try and get their voice heard.RoverP6B said:
.....I like driving when on the right road, but 99% of the time it's just another chore that no car could ever make entertaining.
You've already outed yourself as a motorsport hater, but congratulations, you've just managed to prove to everyone on here what we already knew; that, despite your assertations to the contrary, you are not a driving enthusiast of ANY description because anybody who was would never utter such complete bks. 
thatsmallmindedbloke said:
AS a century ago, when car ownership was very much an exclusive thing for the very rich (my grandparents ran a Minerva at the time - unfortunately I think their petrolheadedness is where all the money went!). Nowadays, the disruption caused by road closures is simply intolerable. It's bad for convenience and bad for the economy.
Really? I know of at least one event in scotland that closes a couple of link roads on an estate (diverting traffic a few hundred years - the horror!) that brings in close to £50k in revenue from competitors and spectators to the local village.A few hundred yards? I wouldn't worry about a couple of miles for 2 days to bring in 50 grand...
If you'd even been to a european rally or TT event, where they shut the centre of the village and run cars through and do scrutineering right through the local town centre, I think you'll find the vast majority of the locals love it, even with some village roads shut for a couple of days, the spectacle and atmosphere is like nothing else, and the income generated to the local area for the sake of a few minor roads linking stages together and the odd village road use for 4-5 days is staggering.
Edited by PhillipM on Monday 3rd March 11:36
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