RE: Closed road motorsport back on?
Discussion
Furyblade_Lee said:
P6Bs comments are like logging on to a baking website and saying you don't like cake, so nobody should eat cake. If nothing else his comments have shown how much support the genuine motoring enthusiasts have for this to happen.
Make me chuckle that - absolutely spot on. He's one of these people who objects to change, just for the sake of it. I don't think road rallies make people prisoners in their own homes - just park your car elsewhere and walk to it, you lazy buggers.PhillipM said:
... where they shut the centre of the village and run cars through and do scrutineering right through the local town centre, I think you'll find the vast majority of the locals love it, even with some village roads shut for a couple of days, the spectacle and atmosphere is like nothing else, and the income generated to the local area for the sake of a few minor roads linking stages together and the odd village road use for 4-5 days is staggering.
Similar here in NZ, local rallies will take over a small rural town as the rally hub, or even just for a morning or afternoon service park. Local shops, cafes etc do quite well out of it - often 50+ entries means a good few hundred team members around as well as spectators, the prizegiving and aftermatch function will be at a local pub so they're happy too. If its a tourist area and a big enough event to be televised they get an extra plug from that as well. Most of the locals think its great and are out watching, or renting out their driveway for a box of beer as a servicing space. 
Edited by GravelBen on Monday 3rd March 11:58
RoverP6B said:
DanielSan said:
And that's the key point, this Rover fella is purely worried about happening where he lives in Surrey, there's a lot of roads not far from where I live in Staffordshire that could be shut without bothering anyone and even more further North. There's the solution - the future's bright, the future's northern.
It's not just the SE either. Not a lot of space in the part of Scotland I'm originally from. Staffordshire, Northern? Back in yer box, damn Sassenach! 
Even if it is a bit of a nuisance, why not just accept it for the sake of those that enjoy it? I don't like the idea of dressing in lycra and peddling around the lanes of Surrey, but I accept that there are folk that do and their needs, wants and desires are the equal of my own.
RoverP6B said:
Yeah, NSL in theory, the reality is they're rarely good for 40mph (and 40mph limits are now being put in place on most - about bloody time too).
I'm in shock! The roads of the valleys and surrounding valleys are in a better state than the rest of the UK!!I managed an 8 mile trip of b roads the other day, barely dropping below 50!
RoverP6B said:
If there WAS any PR, they hid it bloody well. There was certainly no effort whatsoever made to actually CONTACT local residents, and the reason is very clear: if they had, we'd have told them in no uncertain terms where they could shove their bike race.
RoverP6B said:
Right! Here, it was a hell of a lot of people (thousands) trapped in their homes, unable to get anywhere all weekend. The opposition campaign is not something I'm involved with as I don't have the time, but it's pretty big and strong, with a lot of people behind it. We're not talking little pockets of nimbyism, we're talking entire communities hacked off at the lack of consultation and ensuing economic catastrophe. Each time there's been a cycle race here, trade has absolutely DIED. The spectators, such as there were, didn't spend much, and as many locals as were able took off elsewhere. It nearly put a few pubs out of business.
I cant speak for your area, or the PR work that either did or didn't go into that cycle event. However, if it was run on the scale your saying it was then I find it difficult to believe that there was no prior notice.I also fail to see how these thousands of people were trapped in their homes for a whole weekend, ok maybe you couldn't get the car out, but surely your over exaggerating it a bit. You're making it sound like people are trapped worse than the flood victims!
RoverP6B said:
Right! Here, it was a hell of a lot of people (thousands) trapped in their homes, unable to get anywhere all weekend.
I sympathise if you live actually on Box Hill but I live in Reigate Heath (about 3 miles away for anyone not from the area) and short of not being able to drive straight to the Leatherhead junction and heavy (but not ridiculous) traffic around I must admit we didn't really notice it. Plus it was only one weekend. Plus it was a huge bloody route that was shut off, probably 5 times the size of what a closed road hillclimb would entail!More of an issue for me is all the aggressive riders hunting the back roads all around the local areas four abreast in packs that appeared around and after the event; my only reservation about closed road motorsport would be all of the barries that come to entertain themselves or even competitors trying to practice when the roads are open. I would expect increased police/speed camera presence wherever such events are held.
One other advantage of that cycle race is that the roads used are now the best in the area. The rest of the county is crumbling and verging on dangerous while the whole Olympic cycle route is absolutely pristine. I would expect the same thing to happen with Motorsport at least partly paid for by the clubs/competitors.
And also FWIW, aerobatic planes in isolation are more of a nuisance than racing cars in my opinion. When I worked for Lotus I lived a similar distance from Buckenham Airfield to Snetterton race circuit, I could occasionally hear cars from that distance if the wind was blowing the right way but whenever there was an aerobatics plane practicing the bloody thing would be droning incessantly for longer and in a far more annoying fashion than a race track, it was also audible for bloody miles and would be loud enough to drown out things like lawnmowers and strimmers. It was easily as loud as standing at the main gate of Snetterton on a high noise limit day.
I never complained about it as someone's having fun and it's not that big a deal, plus it was my own bloody fault for moving near an airfield that was popular for aerobatics, but it was sodding annoying at times.
Centurion07 said:
RoverP6B said:
The opposition campaign is not something I'm involved with as I don't have the time..
These events must seriously impact your day-to-day existence then since you can't be arsed to help out the people who ARE prepared to try and get their voice heard.Centurion07 said:
You've already outed yourself as a motorsport hater, but congratulations, you've just managed to prove to everyone on here what we already knew; that, despite your assertations to the contrary, you are not a driving enthusiast of ANY description because anybody who was would never utter such complete b
ks. 
When you're sitting at a steady cruise-controlled 70mph (or less wherever there's the merest whiff of roadworks) on a motorway covered in average speed cameras or in a suburban traffic jam, it's very hard to enjoy it. Even the most special car would fail to make that anything other than tedious. None of that negates the enjoyment one gets from driving a really good road in the right car.ks. Edited by RoverP6B on Monday 3rd March 16:54
RyanTank said:
RoverP6B said:
Yeah, NSL in theory, the reality is they're rarely good for 40mph (and 40mph limits are now being put in place on most - about bloody time too).
I'm in shock! The roads of the valleys and surrounding valleys are in a better state than the rest of the UK!!I managed an 8 mile trip of b roads the other day, barely dropping below 50!
RyanTank said:
I cant speak for your area, or the PR work that either did or didn't go into that cycle event. However, if it was run on the scale your saying it was then I find it difficult to believe that there was no prior notice.
I also fail to see how these thousands of people were trapped in their homes for a whole weekend, ok maybe you couldn't get the car out, but surely your over exaggerating it a bit. You're making it sound like people are trapped worse than the flood victims!
Not comparing it to the floods, but a hell of a lot of people who live in rural areas with no pavements found they couldn't get out of their properties by any means. For those of us with physical disabilities (I'm not a wheelchair user, but I do have difficulty walking any significant distance - into the town centre about a mile away to do shopping is out of the question). The first we knew of the road closures were the signs going up at the roadsides simply telling us it was fait accompli, no opportunity to register opposition or anything. National Trust were forced to put a massive metal Olympic logo up on the face of Box Hill (which is a geologically and biologically sensitive site) or face losing their charitable tax rebate. The whole thing was an absolute fiasco and if the Olympics ever return to this country it'll be too soon.I also fail to see how these thousands of people were trapped in their homes for a whole weekend, ok maybe you couldn't get the car out, but surely your over exaggerating it a bit. You're making it sound like people are trapped worse than the flood victims!
The Wookie said:
I sympathise if you live actually on Box Hill but I live in Reigate Heath (about 3 miles away for anyone not from the area) and short of not being able to drive straight to the Leatherhead junction and heavy (but not ridiculous) traffic around I must admit we didn't really notice it. Plus it was only one weekend. Plus it was a huge bloody route that was shut off, probably 5 times the size of what a closed road hillclimb would entail!
More of an issue for me is all the aggressive riders hunting the back roads all around the local areas four abreast in packs that appeared around and after the event; my only reservation about closed road motorsport would be all of the barries that come to entertain themselves or even competitors trying to practice when the roads are open. I would expect increased police/speed camera presence wherever such events are held.
One other advantage of that cycle race is that the roads used are now the best in the area. The rest of the county is crumbling and verging on dangerous while the whole Olympic cycle route is absolutely pristine. I would expect the same thing to happen with Motorsport at least partly paid for by the clubs/competitors.
And also FWIW, aerobatic planes in isolation are more of a nuisance than racing cars in my opinion. When I worked for Lotus I lived a similar distance from Buckenham Airfield to Snetterton race circuit, I could occasionally hear cars from that distance if the wind was blowing the right way but whenever there was an aerobatics plane practicing the bloody thing would be droning incessantly for longer and in a far more annoying fashion than a race track, it was also audible for bloody miles and would be loud enough to drown out things like lawnmowers and strimmers. It was easily as loud as standing at the main gate of Snetterton on a high noise limit day.
I never complained about it as someone's having fun and it's not that big a deal, plus it was my own bloody fault for moving near an airfield that was popular for aerobatics, but it was sodding annoying at times.
I'm on the Headley side of Leatherhead. It wasn't just the Olympic weekend either - there have been quite a few other bike races, Tour of Britain and so on which have, each time, completely bMore of an issue for me is all the aggressive riders hunting the back roads all around the local areas four abreast in packs that appeared around and after the event; my only reservation about closed road motorsport would be all of the barries that come to entertain themselves or even competitors trying to practice when the roads are open. I would expect increased police/speed camera presence wherever such events are held.
One other advantage of that cycle race is that the roads used are now the best in the area. The rest of the county is crumbling and verging on dangerous while the whole Olympic cycle route is absolutely pristine. I would expect the same thing to happen with Motorsport at least partly paid for by the clubs/competitors.
And also FWIW, aerobatic planes in isolation are more of a nuisance than racing cars in my opinion. When I worked for Lotus I lived a similar distance from Buckenham Airfield to Snetterton race circuit, I could occasionally hear cars from that distance if the wind was blowing the right way but whenever there was an aerobatics plane practicing the bloody thing would be droning incessantly for longer and in a far more annoying fashion than a race track, it was also audible for bloody miles and would be loud enough to drown out things like lawnmowers and strimmers. It was easily as loud as standing at the main gate of Snetterton on a high noise limit day.
I never complained about it as someone's having fun and it's not that big a deal, plus it was my own bloody fault for moving near an airfield that was popular for aerobatics, but it was sodding annoying at times.
ksed one's ability to get out and go about one's usual lawful business, with ensuing loss of income. I disagree about the state of the roads used. They used the Dorking-Leatherhead stretch of the A24 which now resembles the surface of the Moon, it's so pot-holed! And yes, the Lycra Louts were out in force and now still are every single weekend... as for aerobatics, the issues are those bloody Rotax engines many of them use, and idiotic CAA/EASA rules which have, amongst other things, banned exhaust silencers on aircraft...You are taking your objections to a cycling event in your locale as a direct read-across to what could happen in future on a road-operated motorsport event. That view is not correct. I have been the competition secretary of an MSA-affiliated motor club and for a road event (i.e. a night rally) it is a requirement before submitting your rally plan that each property lying beside any road which is intended to be used as a competitive section is visited by one of the organizing team. If you want to object to the event coming past your door - that will be your opportunity. The organizers have to take note of what your objection is.
The usual solution for someone who objects is to split that section of the route into 2 , insert a non-competitive section and the event then goes past the objector's location using the usual driving on the public road rules, meaning , obey all speed limits and drive non-competitively.
We have a new public event near to me in the Chilterns - the Kop Hill Climb, using a section of closed public road which (ironically), used to be used competitively in the early days of motoring, before public road events were banned.
It is currently run as a non-competitive event, draws a very good crowd and sells a lot of refreshments and programmes created & supplied by local business enterprises. The budget surplus for the event is then donated to a series of local charities. Gets a very good crowd over the weekend 2 days and everyone has an enjoyable time. What's wrong with that?
Please don't use your experiences of an apparently badly-organized cycling event to assume all motor sport events would be as ill-managed. They would not be; our motor clubs and the MSA both know what they are doing and contain a wealth of experience on how to organize these things competently and safely.
The usual solution for someone who objects is to split that section of the route into 2 , insert a non-competitive section and the event then goes past the objector's location using the usual driving on the public road rules, meaning , obey all speed limits and drive non-competitively.
We have a new public event near to me in the Chilterns - the Kop Hill Climb, using a section of closed public road which (ironically), used to be used competitively in the early days of motoring, before public road events were banned.
It is currently run as a non-competitive event, draws a very good crowd and sells a lot of refreshments and programmes created & supplied by local business enterprises. The budget surplus for the event is then donated to a series of local charities. Gets a very good crowd over the weekend 2 days and everyone has an enjoyable time. What's wrong with that?
Please don't use your experiences of an apparently badly-organized cycling event to assume all motor sport events would be as ill-managed. They would not be; our motor clubs and the MSA both know what they are doing and contain a wealth of experience on how to organize these things competently and safely.
andybu said:
You are taking your objections to a cycling event in your locale as a direct read-across to what could happen in future on a road-operated motorsport event. That view is not correct. I have been the competition secretary of an MSA-affiliated motor club and for a road event (i.e. a night rally) it is a requirement before submitting your rally plan that each property lying beside any road which is intended to be used as a competitive section is visited by one of the organizing team. If you want to object to the event coming past your door - that will be your opportunity. The organizers have to take note of what your objection is.
The usual solution for someone who objects is to split that section of the route into 2 , insert a non-competitive section and the event then goes past the objector's location using the usual driving on the public road rules, meaning , obey all speed limits and drive non-competitively.
We have a new public event near to me in the Chilterns - the Kop Hill Climb, using a section of closed public road which (ironically), used to be used competitively in the early days of motoring, before public road events were banned.
Whilst you are quite correct of course, the point about the road closure bill is that it is not intended for Road Rallies, but (in rally terms) Stage Rallying, so it's likely that if a Stage is run past Mr Rover P6B's house it would be at full speed (IE 60MPH average), you can't put the secret check system into a Stage like you can with a Road Event. The usual solution for someone who objects is to split that section of the route into 2 , insert a non-competitive section and the event then goes past the objector's location using the usual driving on the public road rules, meaning , obey all speed limits and drive non-competitively.
We have a new public event near to me in the Chilterns - the Kop Hill Climb, using a section of closed public road which (ironically), used to be used competitively in the early days of motoring, before public road events were banned.
Also (as I understand it) there is no mechanism for the public to actually prevent a road rally passing their door competitively, it's an open road and we are not breaking the Traffic laws.... (honest...!), it would be the Clubs decision based upon good public awareness if the route was diverted or the secret check put in at the request of a Householder.
Obviously there is a system for informing residents for closed road events already (the Jim Clark for example) but I'm not sure how it works. I have seen the letter as I have rented a Holiday Cottage on the Fogo Stage a couple of times, but I don't think the public would have a direct right to stop it, only to protest if they felt strongly enough.
I can't agree with Mr Rover P6B's stance on this, but I can see that he will not be the only one voicing his opinion strongly against it and for that reason I doubt you will see closed Roads motor sport events anywhere near the SE of England as it's too highly populated and the people tend to be more influential. There isn't a lot of Road Rallying down there these days for the very same reasons.
My worries about this bill as I have mentioned before is that it will be the very same roads we use for Road Rallying which would be closed for Stage Events, creating a fair amount of animosity among certain influential and noisy members of the public. They probably won't have a strong enough say to prevent a Stage Event or Hillclimb which can be shown to be run in controlled conditions and bring benefit to the economy. They almost certainly would have enough sway with the MSA to prevent a club running a road rally on the same Roads. I fear We would in effect become the sacrificial Lamb and give some people within the MSA the excuse they have been looking for to kill it.
Residents on the Jim Clark are told of road closures rather than informed, my friends in the area wait in hope of the letter dropping onto the mat but they seem to be keeping to the more minor roads since the Friday town centre stage started so they've not had the rally going past the door for a few years.
People can make representations though, an elderly neighbour of theirs isn't keen and the stage now finished short of his house.
People can make representations though, an elderly neighbour of theirs isn't keen and the stage now finished short of his house.
Exactly so. What I was trying to say in my earlier piece was that a stage would be cut off say, 1 mile before the objectors' house comes up and then a new stage would begin say, 2 miles further on down the same road. To do that we insert a marshalled stage end at point one, and then a marshalled new stage start at point two.
I did that one one rally we were planning and then spent a couple of hours standing outside the objectors' house at 2am as the rally started to come through. Having, mind you, given out a firm briefing to competitors as Clerk of the Course at rally HQ at 11pm the (short) night before.
Result was that everyone came through on best behaviour, running on dipped's only and at 25 mph. The reaction of the objector was quite interesting. After harrumphing and muttering for the first hour he softened off quite considerably and as the tail lights of the last competitor disappeared from view he announced that he would not now be objecting if we were to run a full stage past his one night in the future. As so often, the threat of change you think you won't like is worse than the change itself.
BTW, pedant corner now, a secret check would be no use, in this context. A secret check is what you put into a dog-leg of the approved route when in fact there is a shorter, more direct route in existence across the base of the triangle of roads here. Greedy navigators will try and save their driver a minute by cutting the route and going direct. But, if at end of route you haven't picked up an additional marshall's stamp in your roadbook between, say, official checkpoint 7 and then 8, then clearly you've cut the route and so we nasty organizers now add a time penalty to your total. That learns 'em.
Coming back more to topic, we also ran autotests, sprints and the very occasional hillclimb. Again, depending on the location we had to deal with quite a lot of public access & impedance questions and situations in the planning stage. The police, once you learned how to present your information to them, were usually a fount of common sense & would often make v helpful & practical suggestions. I do hope that the consultation brings a positive result, because as long as the motorsport event is planned and then run properly the public usually supports it, will enjoy it and might get encouraged to join a club and have a go themselves. There are a huge number of "interested" motorists in the UK and most of them won't be on Pistonheads....
I did that one one rally we were planning and then spent a couple of hours standing outside the objectors' house at 2am as the rally started to come through. Having, mind you, given out a firm briefing to competitors as Clerk of the Course at rally HQ at 11pm the (short) night before.
Result was that everyone came through on best behaviour, running on dipped's only and at 25 mph. The reaction of the objector was quite interesting. After harrumphing and muttering for the first hour he softened off quite considerably and as the tail lights of the last competitor disappeared from view he announced that he would not now be objecting if we were to run a full stage past his one night in the future. As so often, the threat of change you think you won't like is worse than the change itself.
BTW, pedant corner now, a secret check would be no use, in this context. A secret check is what you put into a dog-leg of the approved route when in fact there is a shorter, more direct route in existence across the base of the triangle of roads here. Greedy navigators will try and save their driver a minute by cutting the route and going direct. But, if at end of route you haven't picked up an additional marshall's stamp in your roadbook between, say, official checkpoint 7 and then 8, then clearly you've cut the route and so we nasty organizers now add a time penalty to your total. That learns 'em.
Coming back more to topic, we also ran autotests, sprints and the very occasional hillclimb. Again, depending on the location we had to deal with quite a lot of public access & impedance questions and situations in the planning stage. The police, once you learned how to present your information to them, were usually a fount of common sense & would often make v helpful & practical suggestions. I do hope that the consultation brings a positive result, because as long as the motorsport event is planned and then run properly the public usually supports it, will enjoy it and might get encouraged to join a club and have a go themselves. There are a huge number of "interested" motorists in the UK and most of them won't be on Pistonheads....
Andy not sure what area you are in, but in the north of England the method of slowing competitors past a house is quite common and the controls used are termed secret checks. You are timed in, given a time to complete the short distance then set off at the next s/c at that time. However I do believe the organisers often have a different motive than pr. I'm sure you will know where I'm coming from.
Hi Velocemitch, used to be on the committee of a club in the East Midlands, although these days I live 28 miles NW of London. I think its just terminology & semantics, really. We used a secret checkpoint as a means of detecting which competitors had driven over the correct route and which had tried to cut a corner off & save themselves time.
I would describe or refer to your format of secret check as a straightforward route control check. The fact that, as well as the local residents' PR requirements are then being addressed, these extra control checkpoints also now allow us organizers to tighten the Targa timing allowance up a bit, is a very handy by-product of having these two extra control points. They are not secret, as they are in the competitors' road-book. The type of check I am referring to is not in the road book, which is rather the point, because it is only those competitors who cut it who will get penalized later on.
I would describe or refer to your format of secret check as a straightforward route control check. The fact that, as well as the local residents' PR requirements are then being addressed, these extra control checkpoints also now allow us organizers to tighten the Targa timing allowance up a bit, is a very handy by-product of having these two extra control points. They are not secret, as they are in the competitors' road-book. The type of check I am referring to is not in the road book, which is rather the point, because it is only those competitors who cut it who will get penalized later on.
andybu said:
Hi Velocemitch, used to be on the committee of a club in the East Midlands, although these days I live 28 miles NW of London. I think its just terminology & semantics, really. We used a secret checkpoint as a means of detecting which competitors had driven over the correct route and which had tried to cut a corner off & save themselves time.
I would describe or refer to your format of secret check as a straightforward route control check. The fact that, as well as the local residents' PR requirements are then being addressed, these extra control checkpoints also now allow us organizers to tighten the Targa timing allowance up a bit, is a very handy by-product of having these two extra control points. They are not secret, as they are in the competitors' road-book. The type of check I am referring to is not in the road book, which is rather the point, because it is only those competitors who cut it who will get penalized later on.
I'm sure it's just symantics, but the secret checks I'm talking about are not in the road book or on the P&B navigation instructions. Hence 'secret', they may or may not be on the MSA authorisation either, I couldn't say. But yes they do take time out of you..... A lot of time!.I would describe or refer to your format of secret check as a straightforward route control check. The fact that, as well as the local residents' PR requirements are then being addressed, these extra control checkpoints also now allow us organizers to tighten the Targa timing allowance up a bit, is a very handy by-product of having these two extra control points. They are not secret, as they are in the competitors' road-book. The type of check I am referring to is not in the road book, which is rather the point, because it is only those competitors who cut it who will get penalized later on.
Did you just mention targa time!!. Shhh
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