RE: Circuit of Wales 'unviable' says Silverstone
Discussion
State aid in this instance must be galling for any other circuit owner in the UK to contemplate, as inevitably it reduces the barriers to entry and allows the new firm an unfair competitive advantage and distortes the market.
Sure Silverstone benfitted from the new road, Tesco benefits from new roads to their stores etc. but the actual use of state aid to create a new business feels anti-competitive.
The other issue with state aid is that often the use of it can be a little iffy, so in Europe there are instances of windfarms being built that are not plugged in etc. but the owners don't care, they made millions from the construction. I'm sure this isn't the case here, though using tax payer money to fund the circuit managers salary (the money may be earmarked for construction but it allows the salary to be paid)rather than a heart surgeons wouldn't be at the top of my list.
Sure Silverstone benfitted from the new road, Tesco benefits from new roads to their stores etc. but the actual use of state aid to create a new business feels anti-competitive.
The other issue with state aid is that often the use of it can be a little iffy, so in Europe there are instances of windfarms being built that are not plugged in etc. but the owners don't care, they made millions from the construction. I'm sure this isn't the case here, though using tax payer money to fund the circuit managers salary (the money may be earmarked for construction but it allows the salary to be paid)rather than a heart surgeons wouldn't be at the top of my list.
Anglesey is a simply epic track to drive, superb combination of types of corner and elevation change and it's in a stunning location.
Church (if you're in something nippy) and the corkscrew have to be on the Top Corners in the country list.
Spectating is good too - from the top of the banking you can see all of the track.
Suffers in attendance though as folk think it's a long way, while it possibly is in miles it's generally an easy run.
Oddly same applies to Pembrey, which while being a bit 'basic' in facilities compared to some places is a great track to drive but also suffers from the 'it's a long way' problem.
Both well worth anybodies time to visit, especially if driving them!
Church (if you're in something nippy) and the corkscrew have to be on the Top Corners in the country list.
Spectating is good too - from the top of the banking you can see all of the track.
Suffers in attendance though as folk think it's a long way, while it possibly is in miles it's generally an easy run.
Oddly same applies to Pembrey, which while being a bit 'basic' in facilities compared to some places is a great track to drive but also suffers from the 'it's a long way' problem.
Both well worth anybodies time to visit, especially if driving them!
lamboman100 said:
radio man said:
lamboman100 said:
big_boz said:
Is this not at the bottom of the Brecon Beacons?.....all well and good building a circuit, but if no one can get to it because there are no flipping road going there, what is the point!
Silverstone is just about as central at gets and has major road networks coming from all directions.
Silly
Ah, Wales... That economic powerhouse with all the best ideas.Silverstone is just about as central at gets and has major road networks coming from all directions.
Silly
I know what we can do to improve her... let's build a high-cost, low-profit racetrack in the one of the rainiest, dampest, un-sunniest parts of Britain... make sure we build on the edge of the main road network and far away from major airports... that should do it ;-)
As a proud Englishman who has lived in Wales for 30 yrs I find the country beautiful and the people friendly and kind, we have lush green countryside because it rains and when it rains it tends to be "un-sunny" or cloudy to those of us who don't invent new words. Wales is not an " economic powerhouse" because Maggie ripped the heart out of it and it has struggled to recover but it is doing so and proposals such as the "circuit of Wales" can only help regenerate the area and the local economy and hopefully make a big impact on local unemployment.
Other people have moaned about possible government subsidies are these any different to the subsidies being given to Seimens to construct a facility to make wind turbines on Humberside for the North Sea , Oh I forgot it's ok because that is in England.
I find it hard to believe that motor sport fans can whinge about the possible construction of a new venue, I understand why Silverstone are not happy as they lost £3.7 million last year, but I think that the fans should welcome the idea. Anyway I doubt that our opinions will effect the outcome.
The bottom line here is that building a racetrack in one of the wettest, dampest, windiest, greyest, remotest parts of Britain is crazy. Wales is putting dreams and pride ahead of economic reality.
Wales needs to go back to the drawing board and get creative and look to see if it can develop wealth in other fast-growing areas for the future, like driverless vehicles or pilotless drones.
Anyway we will not see eye to eye over this matter. One small point, you mentioned driverless cars, I hope no-one anywhere invests in them, what is the point, if you can't drive you may as well give up!
Its just going to be another Rockingham....cold bleak and a god awful place to go.
It wont have any heritage (like Rockingham) so it cant draw on that...hopes of getting MotoGP....well Dorna are doing their best to kill that off with not allowing any other live TV coverage bar on the BT Sports pay channel (yeah ITV4 have highlight rights but that's not the same as watching it live on a Sunday afternoon with some mates and beers!)
If they get help from the government then they are going to be under a wave of attacks from all the UK circuits....I am with Silverstone...if you are going to be out there bidding for big race series then its gotta be a level playing field.
It wont have any heritage (like Rockingham) so it cant draw on that...hopes of getting MotoGP....well Dorna are doing their best to kill that off with not allowing any other live TV coverage bar on the BT Sports pay channel (yeah ITV4 have highlight rights but that's not the same as watching it live on a Sunday afternoon with some mates and beers!)
If they get help from the government then they are going to be under a wave of attacks from all the UK circuits....I am with Silverstone...if you are going to be out there bidding for big race series then its gotta be a level playing field.
zebedee said:
What makes Anglesey such a good circuit (I ask out of genuine interest as I have never been but am tempted to now!)
As Jim Spencer has said, its such a fantastic layout (the Coastal Circuit is the best of the configurations) with an awesome combination of quick and slow corners with landscape rise and fall. The quickish downhill left right corkscrew is the best corner combination in the country.The circuit is also the second widest in the country (after Silverstone) and has lots of run off so its a pretty safe layout. The scenery is unique in the uk with the sea next door and views to Snowdonia over water in the not too distant back ground.
Infrastructure has improved significantly recently with the construction of new pits and circuit ops offices.
If it was in the middle of the country people and race series would be happy to pay a premium to race there.
Well worth the effort to get there and I really hope that British GT and BSB race there sometime soon.
The down side is that access to the circuit is fairly poor with just one road in and out, once you have left the Holyhead road. That's why BTCC will never go there. It could cope with a BSB round with lots of spectators o Bikes but couldn't cope with a similar number of cars.
Utter lunacy.
Do they believe that all the motorsport companies will simply leave from where all their other suppliers, staff and contacts are to move to Wales? For what possible reason?
In terms of the track:
Nurburing cannot make money (biggest, best in Europe)
Silverstone struggles despite already having business parks
All other UK tracks are marginal financially and would be worth little if re-sold unless for housing.
There is already a good track in Wales at Anglesey and it's empty almost all the time.
Rockingham cost £100m+ to build, went bankrupt and re-sold for a fraction.
Donington went bankrupt and couldn't get finance, despite already having the track and history.
I'm all for more racetracks, but I really doubt they have got any money behind this fantasy of a business plan.
Do they believe that all the motorsport companies will simply leave from where all their other suppliers, staff and contacts are to move to Wales? For what possible reason?
In terms of the track:
Nurburing cannot make money (biggest, best in Europe)
Silverstone struggles despite already having business parks
All other UK tracks are marginal financially and would be worth little if re-sold unless for housing.
There is already a good track in Wales at Anglesey and it's empty almost all the time.
Rockingham cost £100m+ to build, went bankrupt and re-sold for a fraction.
Donington went bankrupt and couldn't get finance, despite already having the track and history.
I'm all for more racetracks, but I really doubt they have got any money behind this fantasy of a business plan.
Edited by Guyr on Wednesday 26th March 13:46
Guyr said:
Utter lunacy.
Do they believe that all the motorsport companies will simply leave from where all their other suppliers, staff and contacts are to move to Wales? For what possible reason?
In terms of the track:
Nurburing cannot make money (biggest, best in Europe)
Silverstone struggles despite already having business parks
All other UK tracks are marginal financially and would be worth little if re-sold unless for housing.
There is already a good track in Wales at Anglesey and it's empty almost all the time.
Rockingham cost £100m+ to build, went bankrupt and re-sold for a fraction.
Donington went bankrupt and couldn't get finance, despite already having the track and history.
I'm all for more racetracks, but I really doubt they have got any money behind this fantasy of a business plan.
The CoW may or may not be viable but I think its probably worth saying that:Do they believe that all the motorsport companies will simply leave from where all their other suppliers, staff and contacts are to move to Wales? For what possible reason?
In terms of the track:
Nurburing cannot make money (biggest, best in Europe)
Silverstone struggles despite already having business parks
All other UK tracks are marginal financially and would be worth little if re-sold unless for housing.
There is already a good track in Wales at Anglesey and it's empty almost all the time.
Rockingham cost £100m+ to build, went bankrupt and re-sold for a fraction.
Donington went bankrupt and couldn't get finance, despite already having the track and history.
I'm all for more racetracks, but I really doubt they have got any money behind this fantasy of a business plan.
Edited by Guyr on Wednesday 26th March 13:46
The Ring costs a fortune to run because it's 14 miles long plus the GP track. Not comparing like with like
Silverstone loses money because of the infrastructure improvements that Bernie insists upon which are largely used only for a few days of the year (The "Wing") plus the exhorbitant cost of the GP rights fee and escalator
Donington went bust because Simon Gillet wanted the GP (and was probably encouraged by Bernie to stick it to Silverstone) and had to pay for the infrastructure improvements to enable it to host a GP. Its viable now
There is a common thread here! The cost and implication of a Grand Prix
Rockingham was predicated on a relatively alien form of racing to the UK audience but having had the initial construction debt written off now the current owners presumably think its operating viably
Anglesey was re-built using and EU grant to an re-generation area (sound familiar?)
andy97 said:
Rockingham was predicated on a relatively alien form of racing to the UK audience but having had the initial construction debt written off now the current owners presumably think its operating viably
Nah, it's been losing money year on year.http://companycheck.co.uk/company/02577816/ROCKING...
andy97 said:
Guyr said:
Utter lunacy.
Do they believe that all the motorsport companies will simply leave from where all their other suppliers, staff and contacts are to move to Wales? For what possible reason?
In terms of the track:
Nurburing cannot make money (biggest, best in Europe)
Silverstone struggles despite already having business parks
All other UK tracks are marginal financially and would be worth little if re-sold unless for housing.
There is already a good track in Wales at Anglesey and it's empty almost all the time.
Rockingham cost £100m+ to build, went bankrupt and re-sold for a fraction.
Donington went bankrupt and couldn't get finance, despite already having the track and history.
I'm all for more racetracks, but I really doubt they have got any money behind this fantasy of a business plan.
The CoW may or may not be viable but I think its probably worth saying that:Do they believe that all the motorsport companies will simply leave from where all their other suppliers, staff and contacts are to move to Wales? For what possible reason?
In terms of the track:
Nurburing cannot make money (biggest, best in Europe)
Silverstone struggles despite already having business parks
All other UK tracks are marginal financially and would be worth little if re-sold unless for housing.
There is already a good track in Wales at Anglesey and it's empty almost all the time.
Rockingham cost £100m+ to build, went bankrupt and re-sold for a fraction.
Donington went bankrupt and couldn't get finance, despite already having the track and history.
I'm all for more racetracks, but I really doubt they have got any money behind this fantasy of a business plan.
Edited by Guyr on Wednesday 26th March 13:46
The Ring costs a fortune to run because it's 14 miles long plus the GP track. Not comparing like with like
Silverstone loses money because of the infrastructure improvements that Bernie insists upon which are largely used only for a few days of the year (The "Wing") plus the exhorbitant cost of the GP rights fee and escalator
Donington went bust because Simon Gillet wanted the GP (and was probably encouraged by Bernie to stick it to Silverstone) and had to pay for the infrastructure improvements to enable it to host a GP. Its viable now
There is a common thread here! The cost and implication of a Grand Prix
Rockingham was predicated on a relatively alien form of racing to the UK audience but having had the initial construction debt written off now the current owners presumably think its operating viably
Anglesey was re-built using and EU grant to an re-generation area (sound familiar?)
If you are a small circuit, you struggle to attract enough customers to make profit. If you are a big circuit, the sky-high costs of keeping up with the Joneses squeeze the life out of your margin. Catch 22.
Putting a new circuit in a rainy corner of the world in an industry that rarely makes profit is not one I would want to be investing in.
I don't disagree with any of that but if logic counted for anything most of us would not be addicted to car racing. Jonathon Palmer, Chris Meek, Kevin Wheatcroft etc would all make vastly more money if they sold their land for development than they do from racing, but they have not (yet) so presumably the industry makes enough money for them to wash their face and indulge their own passion.
The Wheatcroft family are basically petrolheads with business activities and resources unrelated to Donnington that have allowed them to indulge in circuit ownership without needing to generate a commercial return.
Palmer has a series of businesses based off circuit/motorsport activity that probably mean the circuits could operate at a loss without detriment to the core profitable businesses of Palmersport, BSB, British F4 and MSVR. Indeed owning multiple circuits is probably the reason MSVR can put together such a wide range of race series.
Meek has previously stated he acquired Mallory Park for out of his love of racing.
As a serious question I can't think of a UK circuit that is owned and run as a purely commercial enterprise, there is normally a degree of love of racing and/or motorsport behind the ultimate owner.
Palmer has a series of businesses based off circuit/motorsport activity that probably mean the circuits could operate at a loss without detriment to the core profitable businesses of Palmersport, BSB, British F4 and MSVR. Indeed owning multiple circuits is probably the reason MSVR can put together such a wide range of race series.
Meek has previously stated he acquired Mallory Park for out of his love of racing.
As a serious question I can't think of a UK circuit that is owned and run as a purely commercial enterprise, there is normally a degree of love of racing and/or motorsport behind the ultimate owner.
I don't see how any of you can complain about wales being remote.
I live in Aberdeen and i'll drive to these circuits as many times this year...
7 x Knockhill - 1.5 hrs
2 x Oulton - 6 hrs
2 x Donington - 8 hrs
2 x Silverstone - 9 hrs
1 x Snetterton - 12 hrs
1 x Brands - 14 hrs
I thought Anglesey was quite a nice drive last year, another in Wales would be easier for me than Snett or Brands but I'm not sure we really need another circuit at the risk of other historic circuits closing.
I live in Aberdeen and i'll drive to these circuits as many times this year...
7 x Knockhill - 1.5 hrs
2 x Oulton - 6 hrs
2 x Donington - 8 hrs
2 x Silverstone - 9 hrs
1 x Snetterton - 12 hrs
1 x Brands - 14 hrs
I thought Anglesey was quite a nice drive last year, another in Wales would be easier for me than Snett or Brands but I'm not sure we really need another circuit at the risk of other historic circuits closing.
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