"Accessible motorsport" whinge
Discussion
A friend and I went to spectate Prescott Hill Hillclimb the other day and really enjoyed it. I quite liked the idea of having a go in our own cars, it's much more appealing to me than a track day - the point-to-point nature and elevation change plus a narrow road and no need to worry about hitting anybody really ticks my boxes!
So we got looking into it and it seems if your car is road legal then you need only to have a £40-ish National B Speed license, which you just apply for by post, no test required. Ideal! We're on course for finally doing some motorsport!
Then we dived into the regs a bit deeper... Both of our cars are modified, his MX5 being supercharged and my MR2 had an engine transplant, from 2.0 inline four to 3.0 V6. And it seems that both of those mods put us outside even the "modified" class, which states the car must retain the original engine (that's me out then) and although forced induction is allowed, it cannot push the car into a higher engine size bracket after using the 1.4 multiplier (the MX5 is a 1.8, x1.4 = 2.52, bracket boundary is 2.0... That's him out too). So our cars are both ineligible for the modified road car class and would only be able to compete in Sports Libre (feel free to correct me if im wrong), which requires a higher race license for which you have to have several previous events under your belt before you can get it!
So effectively if we want to get into this accessible motorsport for a bit of a lark with our play cars, due to the way we've modified them to make them more fun we'd actually have to buy a whole OTHER car as cheaply as possible (or use one of our diesel commuters!), and compete in four events in said car, to even be able to apply for the race license to drive the fun cars... We've not even gotten into how our class would require us to have fire safety gear etc... Sorry, no, I'm not THAT bothered about doing it! Real shame.
So we got looking into it and it seems if your car is road legal then you need only to have a £40-ish National B Speed license, which you just apply for by post, no test required. Ideal! We're on course for finally doing some motorsport!
Then we dived into the regs a bit deeper... Both of our cars are modified, his MX5 being supercharged and my MR2 had an engine transplant, from 2.0 inline four to 3.0 V6. And it seems that both of those mods put us outside even the "modified" class, which states the car must retain the original engine (that's me out then) and although forced induction is allowed, it cannot push the car into a higher engine size bracket after using the 1.4 multiplier (the MX5 is a 1.8, x1.4 = 2.52, bracket boundary is 2.0... That's him out too). So our cars are both ineligible for the modified road car class and would only be able to compete in Sports Libre (feel free to correct me if im wrong), which requires a higher race license for which you have to have several previous events under your belt before you can get it!
So effectively if we want to get into this accessible motorsport for a bit of a lark with our play cars, due to the way we've modified them to make them more fun we'd actually have to buy a whole OTHER car as cheaply as possible (or use one of our diesel commuters!), and compete in four events in said car, to even be able to apply for the race license to drive the fun cars... We've not even gotten into how our class would require us to have fire safety gear etc... Sorry, no, I'm not THAT bothered about doing it! Real shame.
Strangely enough, motorsports organisers are quite keen to ensure that drivers and spectators don't get injured or killed.
The rules are written to prevent novices leaping into the most powerful car they can find and ploughing straight off the course.
Nothing to stop you paying a few quid more and getting race licence training so you can pass an ARDS test.
The rules are written to prevent novices leaping into the most powerful car they can find and ploughing straight off the course.
Nothing to stop you paying a few quid more and getting race licence training so you can pass an ARDS test.
thetrash said:
This surprises you?
This...So you're suprised they won't let two rookies into the higher powered class without some experience?
Try an autotest maybe? http://www.msa-autotest.org.uk/
You might still come across the same problems though.
You're prob better off getting something like a 106 rallye between you and go from there!
The issue is just that the cars don't fit a particular class - I've another friend who's just bought a Cayman that is faster than either of our cars, and he could rock up in the road car class with the Nat B and pelt it straight into a tree next weekend. So that speed/safety theory doesn't strictly apply does it?
I'm just dismayed that as a petrolhead with an interest in performance and driving, the "cheap" motorsport actually requires me to buy a whole new car just to play - there's no class that I can use my existing performance car in. I always thought they were trying to encourage people into it. I'd be happy running in a non-competitive class of some sort, I just want to get on the hill and have a go - it's just not allowed...
I'm just dismayed that as a petrolhead with an interest in performance and driving, the "cheap" motorsport actually requires me to buy a whole new car just to play - there's no class that I can use my existing performance car in. I always thought they were trying to encourage people into it. I'd be happy running in a non-competitive class of some sort, I just want to get on the hill and have a go - it's just not allowed...
Edited by OwenK on Saturday 5th July 13:50
Hi
Just a few points.
A supercharged MX5 is eligible to compete. The rule changed this year basically removing that staying within class limit. Your car can be entered in the over 2 litre class.
Engine swapped cars are not eligible in the 2 production car categories, Roadgoing and Modified. Its been argued for years whether it is right or wrong, but at the moment the engine block (and head in Roadgoing) have to be as fitted by the manufacturer.
The catch all class, as you say is Sports Libre, If your car is road legal ( V5, taxed & tested) you can run in Sports Libre on a National 'B' licence but you must fulfill all the safety requirements of Sports Libre, cage , six point harness etc.
Whilst Hillclimbing is fun and a great entry to motorsport, It is also taken very seriously by the MSA and Competitors. At most meetings, Classes for all cars are run from standard cars to unlimited CC single seaters. Everybody wants a class to compete in, but with say on average 20 classes to cover all cars, adding extra classes to accommodate cars that fall outside the 'standard' classes is very difficult.
It is always a problem trying to accommodate new interested parties with already modified cars, as the rules for the class are quite strict on what you can and cannot modify, which when modifying your own car for road use do not apply. Also, the more you modify a car, the more safety feature are required in the car, so if your mods put you out of the Roadgoing Class and into the Modified Class, you will need a roll bar and harness for example.
Saying all this, it is great fun, reasonably cheap for motorsport and the paddocks are a really friendly place to be. On miles for your pound it may look expensive, but the price for a days motorsport and a day of talking cars with like minded people its not bad.
My advice for the pair of you, would by to between you by a cheap standard MX5, both compete in it ( in hillclimbing two people can drive the same car) and have some fun. A useful guide to hillclimbing can be found here http://www.hillclimbandsprint.co.uk/docs/gettingst... and the HSA have a class in their championship just for MX5's ( with mx5 engines )
Cheers
Eric
Just a few points.
A supercharged MX5 is eligible to compete. The rule changed this year basically removing that staying within class limit. Your car can be entered in the over 2 litre class.
Engine swapped cars are not eligible in the 2 production car categories, Roadgoing and Modified. Its been argued for years whether it is right or wrong, but at the moment the engine block (and head in Roadgoing) have to be as fitted by the manufacturer.
The catch all class, as you say is Sports Libre, If your car is road legal ( V5, taxed & tested) you can run in Sports Libre on a National 'B' licence but you must fulfill all the safety requirements of Sports Libre, cage , six point harness etc.
Whilst Hillclimbing is fun and a great entry to motorsport, It is also taken very seriously by the MSA and Competitors. At most meetings, Classes for all cars are run from standard cars to unlimited CC single seaters. Everybody wants a class to compete in, but with say on average 20 classes to cover all cars, adding extra classes to accommodate cars that fall outside the 'standard' classes is very difficult.
It is always a problem trying to accommodate new interested parties with already modified cars, as the rules for the class are quite strict on what you can and cannot modify, which when modifying your own car for road use do not apply. Also, the more you modify a car, the more safety feature are required in the car, so if your mods put you out of the Roadgoing Class and into the Modified Class, you will need a roll bar and harness for example.
Saying all this, it is great fun, reasonably cheap for motorsport and the paddocks are a really friendly place to be. On miles for your pound it may look expensive, but the price for a days motorsport and a day of talking cars with like minded people its not bad.
My advice for the pair of you, would by to between you by a cheap standard MX5, both compete in it ( in hillclimbing two people can drive the same car) and have some fun. A useful guide to hillclimbing can be found here http://www.hillclimbandsprint.co.uk/docs/gettingst... and the HSA have a class in their championship just for MX5's ( with mx5 engines )
Cheers
Eric
Feef
As mentioned above, your car can can go in the over 2 litre class.
On the subject of Licences (Speed)
National 'B' - apply and drive, approx £40, but you can only enter National 'B' events that are run by a club you are a member of, or an invited club. You cannot just enter any event.
National 'A' - you have to have had a National 'B' Licence and gained a number of signatures on your licence ( to say you have been a good boy), you can then enter any National 'A' event in all cars except over 2 litre single seaters and Sports Libre cars
National 'A' Open - A few more signatures and you can drive any thing and any event.
A race licence and rally licence of similar status is also acceptable.
As mentioned above, your car can can go in the over 2 litre class.
On the subject of Licences (Speed)
National 'B' - apply and drive, approx £40, but you can only enter National 'B' events that are run by a club you are a member of, or an invited club. You cannot just enter any event.
National 'A' - you have to have had a National 'B' Licence and gained a number of signatures on your licence ( to say you have been a good boy), you can then enter any National 'A' event in all cars except over 2 litre single seaters and Sports Libre cars
National 'A' Open - A few more signatures and you can drive any thing and any event.
A race licence and rally licence of similar status is also acceptable.
You've got the wrong cars. It's a bit like when I wanted to race Caterhams but they wouldn't let me enter in my Clio so I had to buy a whole other car!!!
Then they said that a polo shirt and thong sandals wouldn't do, and suggested that my Raleigh bicycle helmet was inadequate!
ETA: I think this thread shows that the licensing system works rather well, accessible but only to people who have the presence of mind to do a little homework / preparation beforehand.
Then they said that a polo shirt and thong sandals wouldn't do, and suggested that my Raleigh bicycle helmet was inadequate!
ETA: I think this thread shows that the licensing system works rather well, accessible but only to people who have the presence of mind to do a little homework / preparation beforehand.
Edited by BritishRacinGrin on Sunday 6th July 07:44
I think I've come across all wrong here. The point is that I was going into it as something fun to do with the car I love - the main goal was having some fun in the MR2 - NOT that I really want to race in hillclimb specifically and will jump through whatever hoops are necessary in order that I can do it for the sake of doing it.
I get that the rules are there to ensure fair competition, but what I'm saying is that I'm not bothered about competing - I just want to have a go! I naively assumed that hillclimb would be perfect, seeing as it's a timed one-car race so I wouldn't affect anybody else's day. I was hoping for a RWYB day, like drag strips have.
Imagine if you fancied having a go at fishing with some old gear that you've got lying around in the loft, just to see if you like it; but you're not allowed to fish at the lake without joining the local club, and they won't let you in with your old equipment.
I get that the rules are there to ensure fair competition, but what I'm saying is that I'm not bothered about competing - I just want to have a go! I naively assumed that hillclimb would be perfect, seeing as it's a timed one-car race so I wouldn't affect anybody else's day. I was hoping for a RWYB day, like drag strips have.
Imagine if you fancied having a go at fishing with some old gear that you've got lying around in the loft, just to see if you like it; but you're not allowed to fish at the lake without joining the local club, and they won't let you in with your old equipment.
Your can't just expect to buy a car you like and for it to just slot neatly into a category, especially once modified. There's no point whinging about it, that's how it is and pretty much how it always has been.
Anyway, national 'b' will cost you what, 300 quid? If you're determined to run your car it's hardly beyond the realms of possibility.
Anyway, national 'b' will cost you what, 300 quid? If you're determined to run your car it's hardly beyond the realms of possibility.
OwenK said:
I think I've come across all wrong here. The point is that I was going into it as something fun to do with the car I love - the main goal was having some fun in the MR2 - NOT that I really want to race in hillclimb specifically and will jump through whatever hoops are necessary in order that I can do it for the sake of doing it.
I get that the rules are there to ensure fair competition, but what I'm saying is that I'm not bothered about competing - I just want to have a go! I naively assumed that hillclimb would be perfect, seeing as it's a timed one-car race so I wouldn't affect anybody else's day. I was hoping for a RWYB day, like drag strips have.
Imagine if you fancied having a go at fishing with some old gear that you've got lying around in the loft, just to see if you like it; but you're not allowed to fish at the lake without joining the local club, and they won't let you in with your old equipment.
Take your car to Curborough or somewhere if you just want to whack it up and down, or in a track day. I get that the rules are there to ensure fair competition, but what I'm saying is that I'm not bothered about competing - I just want to have a go! I naively assumed that hillclimb would be perfect, seeing as it's a timed one-car race so I wouldn't affect anybody else's day. I was hoping for a RWYB day, like drag strips have.
Imagine if you fancied having a go at fishing with some old gear that you've got lying around in the loft, just to see if you like it; but you're not allowed to fish at the lake without joining the local club, and they won't let you in with your old equipment.
To be honest, if your 'not that bothered' then you really shouldn't waste everybody's time trying to get into competitions, IMO.
zac510 said:
it does seem like a snobby barrier to entry.
Snobby? How is it snobby? Don't you see that by having categories / brackets like this the organisers are stopping somebody turning up with the thickest chequebook you've ever seen and building some kind of all-conquering monster?In fact, having categories is all about making comppetetive motorsport accessible to anybody who can be 'bothered' to just spend fifteen minutes thumbing through the regs.
BritishRacinGrin said:
zac510 said:
it does seem like a snobby barrier to entry.
Snobby? How is it snobby? Don't you see that by having categories / brackets like this the organisers are stopping somebody turning up with the thickest chequebook you've ever seen and building some kind of all-conquering monster?In fact, having categories is all about making comppetetive motorsport accessible to anybody who can be 'bothered' to just spend fifteen minutes thumbing through the regs.
I think you demonstrated the snobbiness perfectly by not wanting to let anyone who doesn't meet what you consider to be your standard of commitment.
IMO having the correct safety modifications, preparing the car, attending the track, organising local accomodation, etc are all quite a commitment on their own, the vehicle modifications are trivial. Many people have that level of commitment for a track day so they could be doing a timed hillclimb event instead.
It could just be road-registered 'run what you brung' or excluded from overall results. It's not going to get FTOD and if it's poorly prepared then it won't pass scrutineering.
IMO having the correct safety modifications, preparing the car, attending the track, organising local accomodation, etc are all quite a commitment on their own, the vehicle modifications are trivial. Many people have that level of commitment for a track day so they could be doing a timed hillclimb event instead.
It could just be road-registered 'run what you brung' or excluded from overall results. It's not going to get FTOD and if it's poorly prepared then it won't pass scrutineering.
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