RE: Closed road motorsport: approved!
Discussion
FisiP1 said:
Stuff about night rallies.
The organising club isn't allowed to close the road. Hence this new legislation.If there are people practicing the route then take down their reg no's and report them to the club. They will be (or should be) very keen to hear about it. The regs are quite clear that no testing is allowed.
Good news about the change in law. I look forward to seeing a proper tarmac rally without having to cross the sea! Just a shame the WRC cars are so dull.
Yes I'm afraid my take on this is that it will not increase the number of tarmac stage rallies on closed public roads but might allow for a city centre type race event IF there is enough money in it for those who seem able to profit in that sort of event. ie those linked to government (either house) or other civic "dignitories", big business etc
Or just him saying yes to shut up someone asking a question, with no actual thought to it happening (like the chances of an EU referendum)
I would suggest that the unfortunate events on the Jim Clark will put a stop to closed road stage rallies.
As for true road rallies, I used to compete regularly back in the 70's - from both sides of the car- a great time with starts at midnight, ending about 6am, but it all got a bid mad with 2.1pinto Escorts and mad Chevettes etc absolutely flat out through the country lanes with little thought for other road users. Yes, other road users were few and far between then but I always worried that just around the bend was a pissed up bloke on a bike coming home from a lock in or someone heading home after a night of nookie. The only likely people on the roads were the marshalls and spectators who, in them days seemed to be more sensible, at least as far as picking sensible places to spectate from, even if they did drive a bit wild a times.
Or just him saying yes to shut up someone asking a question, with no actual thought to it happening (like the chances of an EU referendum)
I would suggest that the unfortunate events on the Jim Clark will put a stop to closed road stage rallies.
As for true road rallies, I used to compete regularly back in the 70's - from both sides of the car- a great time with starts at midnight, ending about 6am, but it all got a bid mad with 2.1pinto Escorts and mad Chevettes etc absolutely flat out through the country lanes with little thought for other road users. Yes, other road users were few and far between then but I always worried that just around the bend was a pissed up bloke on a bike coming home from a lock in or someone heading home after a night of nookie. The only likely people on the roads were the marshalls and spectators who, in them days seemed to be more sensible, at least as far as picking sensible places to spectate from, even if they did drive a bit wild a times.
Welshwonder said:
FisiP1 said:
Stuff about night rallies.
The organising club isn't allowed to close the road. Hence this new legislation.If there are people practicing the route then take down their reg no's and report them to the club. They will be (or should be) very keen to hear about it. The regs are quite clear that no testing is allowed.
Good news about the change in law. I look forward to seeing a proper tarmac rally without having to cross the sea! Just a shame the WRC cars are so dull.
I Don't think the new legislation has got anything at all to do with Road Rallying though, in fact I doubt the people who debated it even know it exists (well the ones that have a holiday cottage in Wales might!). Certainly MSA haven't pushed for this to help Clubs close the roads at night, because that isn't what the Clubs or MSA want. If anything the effect will be the exact opposite and it will be very difficult to continue to justify a branch of Rallying which has more Historic right to the name than sanitised modern Stage Rallies and is the only affordable way to compete for hundreds of enthusiasts.
This decision today will almost certainly push one or more major UK racetracks into financial losses or bankruptcy during 2015 to 2025.
There will now be *huge oversupply* of motorsport racetracks. For example, if Silverstone loses the UK F1 Grand Prix to Central London, Silverstone will lose millions and could quickly be in trouble.
The decision to allow street-racing looks economically naïve.
There will now be *huge oversupply* of motorsport racetracks. For example, if Silverstone loses the UK F1 Grand Prix to Central London, Silverstone will lose millions and could quickly be in trouble.
The decision to allow street-racing looks economically naïve.
velocemitch said:
Welshwonder said:
FisiP1 said:
Stuff about night rallies.
The organising club isn't allowed to close the road. Hence this new legislation.If there are people practicing the route then take down their reg no's and report them to the club. They will be (or should be) very keen to hear about it. The regs are quite clear that no testing is allowed.
Good news about the change in law. I look forward to seeing a proper tarmac rally without having to cross the sea! Just a shame the WRC cars are so dull.
I Don't think the new legislation has got anything at all to do with Road Rallying though, in fact I doubt the people who debated it even know it exists (well the ones that have a holiday cottage in Wales might!). Certainly MSA haven't pushed for this to help Clubs close the roads at night, because that isn't what the Clubs or MSA want. If anything the effect will be the exact opposite and it will be very difficult to continue to justify a branch of Rallying which has more Historic right to the name than sanitised modern Stage Rallies and is the only affordable way to compete for hundreds of enthusiasts.
I'm clearly no fan of this form of motorsport myself, but I'm perfectly aware that others love it, and on that basis I have no objection to it continuing so long as some of the safety concerns that I raised can be either dealt with in this new legislation, or that similar problems elsewhere that could potentially be caused by this legislation can be avoided before any events begin. My post was based on a wish to transmit some opinions based on living somewhere with a race/rally whatever you would like to call it going past my home already.
I feel sorry for any unsuspecting visitors to the area arriving late at night and having to drive against the flow of one of these rallies unknowingly. I do feel that is wrong, and as I mentioned, a number of years back there was a fatal accident nearby during one of these events owing to a collision involving a rally car and a member of the public driving a relative to hospital. If this legislation helps avoid such situations, then great.
Unfortunately, although I can understand that the organizing club has no intention of turning the road into a magnet for people testing/practicing etc, that is exactly what has happened here. Again, whatever the upshot of the legislation, it shouldn't be hard even for rally supporters to agree that advertising a race on a public road is going to run the risk of attracting a less conscientious enthusiast. Hence my call to ensure such events are policed appropriately both during, and also for a responsible long-term period before/after the race.
aarondbs said:
Timing is everything though I am not sure we will qualify; I have been trying today to organise a road closure for our soap box race next June. Having been passed from County to Region and Borough Councils to get permissions and having to quote an obscure 1847 Town and Police Clauses Act to the borough I have now established that they are going to want their pound of flesh to take my enquiry!!
I've organised the website so far, discussed the charities which are going to be the beneficiaries (Ashgate Hospice and Clic Sargent) and will be moving this forward in the next few weeks.
Matey, The Oxted Pram Race where I live closes many roads for a similar thing, might be worth contacting the organisers to get some advice on who really pulls the strings.I've organised the website so far, discussed the charities which are going to be the beneficiaries (Ashgate Hospice and Clic Sargent) and will be moving this forward in the next few weeks.
Edited by aarondbs on Friday 11th July 16:35
For club level competitors, I think it could be great if local hillclimbs could go ahead all over the country. There are countless suitable rural roads which if closed would cause no problems, just go around them. Whole villages could get involved, the local farmers for parking and camping, the village pubs for food etc. I am sure many little villages would love to host a regular event and put themselves on the map. This sort of thing happens a lot in France without a hiccup so cannot see why it cannot work over here? Apart from the NIMBYS, Bah Humbugs, noise pollution ( it's not real pollution don't you know ) and greens. We just need a few "insiders", I might run for local elections now!!!
FisiP1 said:
velocemitch said:
Welshwonder said:
FisiP1 said:
Stuff about night rallies.
The organising club isn't allowed to close the road. Hence this new legislation.If there are people practicing the route then take down their reg no's and report them to the club. They will be (or should be) very keen to hear about it. The regs are quite clear that no testing is allowed.
Good news about the change in law. I look forward to seeing a proper tarmac rally without having to cross the sea! Just a shame the WRC cars are so dull.
I Don't think the new legislation has got anything at all to do with Road Rallying though, in fact I doubt the people who debated it even know it exists (well the ones that have a holiday cottage in Wales might!). Certainly MSA haven't pushed for this to help Clubs close the roads at night, because that isn't what the Clubs or MSA want. If anything the effect will be the exact opposite and it will be very difficult to continue to justify a branch of Rallying which has more Historic right to the name than sanitised modern Stage Rallies and is the only affordable way to compete for hundreds of enthusiasts.
I'm clearly no fan of this form of motorsport myself, but I'm perfectly aware that others love it, and on that basis I have no objection to it continuing so long as some of the safety concerns that I raised can be either dealt with in this new legislation, or that similar problems elsewhere that could potentially be caused by this legislation can be avoided before any events begin. My post was based on a wish to transmit some opinions based on living somewhere with a race/rally whatever you would like to call it going past my home already.
I feel sorry for any unsuspecting visitors to the area arriving late at night and having to drive against the flow of one of these rallies unknowingly. I do feel that is wrong, and as I mentioned, a number of years back there was a fatal accident nearby during one of these events owing to a collision involving a rally car and a member of the public driving a relative to hospital. If this legislation helps avoid such situations, then great.
Unfortunately, although I can understand that the organizing club has no intention of turning the road into a magnet for people testing/practicing etc, that is exactly what has happened here. Again, whatever the upshot of the legislation, it shouldn't be hard even for rally supporters to agree that advertising a race on a public road is going to run the risk of attracting a less conscientious enthusiast. Hence my call to ensure such events are policed appropriately both during, and also for a responsible long-term period before/after the race.
That is a much more balanced post than your previous one so on that basis I will explain what I meant.
The event you are referring to was a Road Rally, run on open public Roads at night, the Legislation is nothing to do with this type of event it is meant to pave the way for the possibility of closing the roads and lifting the Traffic laws for Motorsport. This would enable Special Stage Rallies on stretches of public Road in the same way as is common in Ireland the Isle of Man and parts of Scotland and the Borders.
A Road Rally generally speaking would not be 'directly' affected by this as there is no requirement to close the road and the competitors are still bound by the Traffic Laws. The reason they run on quiet lanes at night is to avoid as much as possible the chances of the tragic incident you refer to happening. But sadly whilst the events still run there could be a risk, it is however not as large as you might think and the incidents are extremely rare. Consider that there are probably 50 to 100 Road Rallies run every year and have they have been doing for Fifty years or more, how often have you heard of an incident?.... I'm only aware of this one plus one other in the past decade.
What irked me a bit about your post was the inference that Old Bangers deliberately designed to be noisy were being irresponsibly driven. That really isn't the case, the Cars do tend to be old, basically because modern Cars tend not to be suitable, we can't run Turbos (actally we can now from this year, but that's still not happening), Traction control, ABS, low profile Tyres, Air Bags, Weight... are all things which go against what you need to compete on the Type of Roads we use, bearing in mind on most events use off road sections which are often very very rough. Obviously nobody is going to fork out 15 to 20k on something like a Fiesta ST, then another 3 to 4 to make it usable, when you can buy a 205 GTi, and prepare it for a fraction of the cost and it would be every bit as competitive. That is not to say some people don't spend a lot of Money on Cars, just look at the spec of some of Mk2 Escorts being used.
Noise from the Cars is a problem, all Cars have to pass a noise test which is becoming stricter as years go by, it is currently well under that required by law, nobody deliberately makes their car sound noisier than it needs to be, but that said a 2.1 Pinto running on Split 48 Carbs is never going to be peaceful!. The main issue though is the fact that the cars are constantly running at high revs, either pulling away from Give ways (it's mandatory to STOP at all give ways), time controls, passage checks or slow corners. Long periods of high speed sustained running in anything higher than 3rd are quite rare especially in Wales. Tyre noise (most Cars run Forest Pattern Knobblies) is an issue as is braking noise, lock-ups, Handbraking (not on the public road of course!) etc all contribute. I've heard enough events to know how far the sound travels.
The comment that there are plenty of Forest Tracks to use is missing the point, generally speaking we can't use them, the Forestry commission limit there use and it's the Stage Rally boys that get the priority (rightly so). We don't want them too much anyway, this is Road Rally, it's as much about finding the route and following it as it is about driving fast, that element is totally missing from a Stage Rally and would be if we stayed in the Forests. There is also the small matter of costs, Forest Miles cost big time and Road Rallying is entry level Motorsport cost wise, typically between £50.00 to £100.00 to enter, this is a tenth of the cost of Stage Rallies even now and a fraction of what it would cost to enter a future closed Road Stage Rally.
My worries regarding this deregulation bill have been amply demonstrated by your post, you are obviously a 'Car' person as you have some nice kit and come on a Forum like this. But you along with 90% of others on here don't understand the difference between a closed road stage rally and a road rally, so what chance has the general public. What I fear will happen is that the public tolerance and good will which we rely on to run our events will simply evaporate once the public gains the impression we can close the road, but choose not to. Plus of course if an area is used for a closed Road Stage Rally, the chances of us getting to use those same roads later in the year will be practically nill. Added to that the MSA who currently are the only organisation allowed to sanction open road motor sport in the UK could very easily decide that it's too much trouble to steer a balance between allowing open road and promoting closed road events. I fear the former will be sacrificed as a sop to the councils to push through the latter. So in effect we will loose a hundred or so affordable Motor sport events and gain a half a dozen (at the most!) very expensive and exclusive events which in turn will have displaced other Forest type events. Is this a good thing?
Furyblade_Lee said:
For club level competitors, I think it could be great if local hillclimbs could go ahead all over the country. There are countless suitable rural roads which if closed would cause no problems, just go around them. Whole villages could get involved, the local farmers for parking and camping, the village pubs for food etc. I am sure many little villages would love to host a regular event and put themselves on the map. This sort of thing happens a lot in France without a hiccup so cannot see why it cannot work over here? Apart from the NIMBYS, Bah Humbugs, noise pollution ( it's not real pollution don't you know ) and greens. We just need a few "insiders", I might run for local elections now!!!
http://www.kophillclimb.org.uk/velocemitch said:
Fisi
That is a much more balanced post than your previous one so on that basis I will explain what I meant.
The event you are referring to was a Road Rally, run on open public Roads at night, the Legislation is nothing to do with this type of event it is meant to pave the way for the possibility of closing the roads and lifting the Traffic laws for Motorsport. This would enable Special Stage Rallies on stretches of public Road in the same way as is common in Ireland the Isle of Man and parts of Scotland and the Borders.
A Road Rally generally speaking would not be 'directly' affected by this as there is no requirement to close the road and the competitors are still bound by the Traffic Laws. The reason they run on quiet lanes at night is to avoid as much as possible the chances of the tragic incident you refer to happening. But sadly whilst the events still run there could be a risk, it is however not as large as you might think and the incidents are extremely rare. Consider that there are probably 50 to 100 Road Rallies run every year and have they have been doing for Fifty years or more, how often have you heard of an incident?.... I'm only aware of this one plus one other in the past decade.
What irked me a bit about your post was the inference that Old Bangers deliberately designed to be noisy were being irresponsibly driven. That really isn't the case, the Cars do tend to be old, basically because modern Cars tend not to be suitable, we can't run Turbos (actally we can now from this year, but that's still not happening), Traction control, ABS, low profile Tyres, Air Bags, Weight... are all things which go against what you need to compete on the Type of Roads we use, bearing in mind on most events use off road sections which are often very very rough. Obviously nobody is going to fork out 15 to 20k on something like a Fiesta ST, then another 3 to 4 to make it usable, when you can buy a 205 GTi, and prepare it for a fraction of the cost and it would be every bit as competitive. That is not to say some people don't spend a lot of Money on Cars, just look at the spec of some of Mk2 Escorts being used.
Noise from the Cars is a problem, all Cars have to pass a noise test which is becoming stricter as years go by, it is currently well under that required by law, nobody deliberately makes their car sound noisier than it needs to be, but that said a 2.1 Pinto running on Split 48 Carbs is never going to be peaceful!. The main issue though is the fact that the cars are constantly running at high revs, either pulling away from Give ways (it's mandatory to STOP at all give ways), time controls, passage checks or slow corners. Long periods of high speed sustained running in anything higher than 3rd are quite rare especially in Wales. Tyre noise (most Cars run Forest Pattern Knobblies) is an issue as is braking noise, lock-ups, Handbraking (not on the public road of course!) etc all contribute. I've heard enough events to know how far the sound travels.
The comment that there are plenty of Forest Tracks to use is missing the point, generally speaking we can't use them, the Forestry commission limit there use and it's the Stage Rally boys that get the priority (rightly so). We don't want them too much anyway, this is Road Rally, it's as much about finding the route and following it as it is about driving fast, that element is totally missing from a Stage Rally and would be if we stayed in the Forests. There is also the small matter of costs, Forest Miles cost big time and Road Rallying is entry level Motorsport cost wise, typically between £50.00 to £100.00 to enter, this is a tenth of the cost of Stage Rallies even now and a fraction of what it would cost to enter a future closed Road Stage Rally.
My worries regarding this deregulation bill have been amply demonstrated by your post, you are obviously a 'Car' person as you have some nice kit and come on a Forum like this. But you along with 90% of others on here don't understand the difference between a closed road stage rally and a road rally, so what chance has the general public. What I fear will happen is that the public tolerance and good will which we rely on to run our events will simply evaporate once the public gains the impression we can close the road, but choose not to. Plus of course if an area is used for a closed Road Stage Rally, the chances of us getting to use those same roads later in the year will be practically nill. Added to that the MSA who currently are the only organisation allowed to sanction open road motor sport in the UK could very easily decide that it's too much trouble to steer a balance between allowing open road and promoting closed road events. I fear the former will be sacrificed as a sop to the councils to push through the latter. So in effect we will loose a hundred or so affordable Motor sport events and gain a half a dozen (at the most!) very expensive and exclusive events which in turn will have displaced other Forest type events. Is this a good thing?
+1That is a much more balanced post than your previous one so on that basis I will explain what I meant.
The event you are referring to was a Road Rally, run on open public Roads at night, the Legislation is nothing to do with this type of event it is meant to pave the way for the possibility of closing the roads and lifting the Traffic laws for Motorsport. This would enable Special Stage Rallies on stretches of public Road in the same way as is common in Ireland the Isle of Man and parts of Scotland and the Borders.
A Road Rally generally speaking would not be 'directly' affected by this as there is no requirement to close the road and the competitors are still bound by the Traffic Laws. The reason they run on quiet lanes at night is to avoid as much as possible the chances of the tragic incident you refer to happening. But sadly whilst the events still run there could be a risk, it is however not as large as you might think and the incidents are extremely rare. Consider that there are probably 50 to 100 Road Rallies run every year and have they have been doing for Fifty years or more, how often have you heard of an incident?.... I'm only aware of this one plus one other in the past decade.
What irked me a bit about your post was the inference that Old Bangers deliberately designed to be noisy were being irresponsibly driven. That really isn't the case, the Cars do tend to be old, basically because modern Cars tend not to be suitable, we can't run Turbos (actally we can now from this year, but that's still not happening), Traction control, ABS, low profile Tyres, Air Bags, Weight... are all things which go against what you need to compete on the Type of Roads we use, bearing in mind on most events use off road sections which are often very very rough. Obviously nobody is going to fork out 15 to 20k on something like a Fiesta ST, then another 3 to 4 to make it usable, when you can buy a 205 GTi, and prepare it for a fraction of the cost and it would be every bit as competitive. That is not to say some people don't spend a lot of Money on Cars, just look at the spec of some of Mk2 Escorts being used.
Noise from the Cars is a problem, all Cars have to pass a noise test which is becoming stricter as years go by, it is currently well under that required by law, nobody deliberately makes their car sound noisier than it needs to be, but that said a 2.1 Pinto running on Split 48 Carbs is never going to be peaceful!. The main issue though is the fact that the cars are constantly running at high revs, either pulling away from Give ways (it's mandatory to STOP at all give ways), time controls, passage checks or slow corners. Long periods of high speed sustained running in anything higher than 3rd are quite rare especially in Wales. Tyre noise (most Cars run Forest Pattern Knobblies) is an issue as is braking noise, lock-ups, Handbraking (not on the public road of course!) etc all contribute. I've heard enough events to know how far the sound travels.
The comment that there are plenty of Forest Tracks to use is missing the point, generally speaking we can't use them, the Forestry commission limit there use and it's the Stage Rally boys that get the priority (rightly so). We don't want them too much anyway, this is Road Rally, it's as much about finding the route and following it as it is about driving fast, that element is totally missing from a Stage Rally and would be if we stayed in the Forests. There is also the small matter of costs, Forest Miles cost big time and Road Rallying is entry level Motorsport cost wise, typically between £50.00 to £100.00 to enter, this is a tenth of the cost of Stage Rallies even now and a fraction of what it would cost to enter a future closed Road Stage Rally.
My worries regarding this deregulation bill have been amply demonstrated by your post, you are obviously a 'Car' person as you have some nice kit and come on a Forum like this. But you along with 90% of others on here don't understand the difference between a closed road stage rally and a road rally, so what chance has the general public. What I fear will happen is that the public tolerance and good will which we rely on to run our events will simply evaporate once the public gains the impression we can close the road, but choose not to. Plus of course if an area is used for a closed Road Stage Rally, the chances of us getting to use those same roads later in the year will be practically nill. Added to that the MSA who currently are the only organisation allowed to sanction open road motor sport in the UK could very easily decide that it's too much trouble to steer a balance between allowing open road and promoting closed road events. I fear the former will be sacrificed as a sop to the councils to push through the latter. So in effect we will loose a hundred or so affordable Motor sport events and gain a half a dozen (at the most!) very expensive and exclusive events which in turn will have displaced other Forest type events. Is this a good thing?
as a competitor / marshal / organiser I think this will become fact!
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