heel and toe in rallying??
Discussion
So long as you have no “blipper” on the down changes, YES, you can Heel & Toe on a sequential.
On my Mk 2 Escort I have recently sold, it had a Sadev 6 sp sequential box [ very impressive bit of kit ] it was recommended to heel & Toe coming down through the box. I did this all the time and as said before, the stopping was improved with good stability.
So, to say you can’t on a sequential is not strictly true, as ever, it depends on the equipment.
On my Mk 2 Escort I have recently sold, it had a Sadev 6 sp sequential box [ very impressive bit of kit ] it was recommended to heel & Toe coming down through the box. I did this all the time and as said before, the stopping was improved with good stability.
So, to say you can’t on a sequential is not strictly true, as ever, it depends on the equipment.
Perhaps he's used to FWD rally cars with sequential boxes. You don't bother even using the clutch on downshifts in an FWD circuit car, even without a blipper as it's more important to get your braking modulation right. The only time I would heel and toe in a touring car is if it's particularly slippery in a braking zone and the downshifts are triggering a lockup.
Many people left foot brake as a result although as long as you are capable of using your left foot to trim the car with the brakes mid corner on the power then there's no disadvantage in using your right foot for stopping.
In a rear drive car though unless it's a paddleshift system with a blipper then I'd always expect to use the clutch, in which case heel and toe will always be a benefit to stability and braking traction.
Many people left foot brake as a result although as long as you are capable of using your left foot to trim the car with the brakes mid corner on the power then there's no disadvantage in using your right foot for stopping.
In a rear drive car though unless it's a paddleshift system with a blipper then I'd always expect to use the clutch, in which case heel and toe will always be a benefit to stability and braking traction.
Hi - interesting topic.
H&T has been something I was taught to do from before I had my driving licence, by my father. I feel it is great fun and a way of challenging yourself when driving every day without necessarily needing to go fast.
If you have a fierce paddle clutch on your road car, down shifts without good rev matching are nasty and unsmooth for all involved and as said, create torque shift and risk upsetting balance of the car (rwd, fwd, all included). If during slowing for a bend, junction or roundabout, you have to press brake, lift off brake, press throttle to rev match, press brake again, it is all very messy and not very professional. H&T allows all that at the same time in one seamless move.
As per some of the replies I also heard from circuit racers (including an ex McLaren F1 test driver) that H&T gives too many opportunities for mistakes unless you are very good at it. Example being, as brake fade kicks in, you require to push the brake pedal further and many drivers cannot adapt and end up over revving on down shifts as they push the throttle deeper than normal. I mentioned Walter Rohl and he raised an eyebrow and said, yes, but that is Walter Rohl, hardly the average driver..
As said, I just enjoy the experience and the challenge and the fact I can feel a challenge at any speed cruising around cities and roundabouts and so on, not just going as fast as possible.
Re Pedals being in the right location: We used to adjust throttle cable length, throttle pedal stop position and also bend the throttle pedals closer to the brake on the older non flybywire cars to make them the ideal height for H&T.
I sold my E92 M3 with it's DCT box as I realised the only fun was flat out due to not having a clutch pedal to play with including H&T. Long live the clutch pedal.
Regards,
Steven RW
H&T has been something I was taught to do from before I had my driving licence, by my father. I feel it is great fun and a way of challenging yourself when driving every day without necessarily needing to go fast.
If you have a fierce paddle clutch on your road car, down shifts without good rev matching are nasty and unsmooth for all involved and as said, create torque shift and risk upsetting balance of the car (rwd, fwd, all included). If during slowing for a bend, junction or roundabout, you have to press brake, lift off brake, press throttle to rev match, press brake again, it is all very messy and not very professional. H&T allows all that at the same time in one seamless move.
As per some of the replies I also heard from circuit racers (including an ex McLaren F1 test driver) that H&T gives too many opportunities for mistakes unless you are very good at it. Example being, as brake fade kicks in, you require to push the brake pedal further and many drivers cannot adapt and end up over revving on down shifts as they push the throttle deeper than normal. I mentioned Walter Rohl and he raised an eyebrow and said, yes, but that is Walter Rohl, hardly the average driver..
As said, I just enjoy the experience and the challenge and the fact I can feel a challenge at any speed cruising around cities and roundabouts and so on, not just going as fast as possible.
Re Pedals being in the right location: We used to adjust throttle cable length, throttle pedal stop position and also bend the throttle pedals closer to the brake on the older non flybywire cars to make them the ideal height for H&T.
I sold my E92 M3 with it's DCT box as I realised the only fun was flat out due to not having a clutch pedal to play with including H&T. Long live the clutch pedal.
Regards,
Steven RW
cptsideways said:
Sequential gearboxes overide any requirement to heel n toe as you simply can't
I've run a few racecars with sequential boxes where h&t was essential. On a few cars we fitted little devices to the gearlevers, which were also fitted by Porsche on some of their racecars, which prodded the throttle pedal when you pushed the gearlever forwards to go down the box. The drivers loved them because it allowed them to focus fully on braking without having to blip.It's an interesting question. My viewpoint would be based on the following thought. If heel and toe was not required at all, then paddleshift gearboxes would not have programmable downshift throttle blips. A downshift throttle blipper is doing the h&t bit for you by matching the revs for the next gear down and giving you a smooth downshift, which minimises the torque change and reduces the risk of locking the rear wheels.
I know that the blip is also required to help disengage the dogs from the higher gear, of course, but it isn't the only reason - I've looked at plenty of data from Porsche 996 and 997 Cup cars over the years from drivers who didn't h&t and it's interesting to compare the driver's comments about 'instability under braking' with the sudden drop in rear wheel speed after each downshift...
Ahonen said:
I know that the blip is also required to help disengage the dogs from the higher gear, of course, but it isn't the only reason - I've looked at plenty of data from Porsche 996 and 997 Cup cars over the years from drivers who didn't h&t and it's interesting to compare the driver's comments about 'instability under braking' with the sudden drop in rear wheel speed after each downshift...
Interesting you should mention the Porsche Cup Cars, the 997 Cup I used to race liked masses of revs on the downshifts for stability, such that you were always banging the limiter on H&T and on a knife edge of buzzing the engine. Not sure why, I didn't know enough at the time to question it, but it did work.The Wookie said:
Ahonen said:
I know that the blip is also required to help disengage the dogs from the higher gear, of course, but it isn't the only reason - I've looked at plenty of data from Porsche 996 and 997 Cup cars over the years from drivers who didn't h&t and it's interesting to compare the driver's comments about 'instability under braking' with the sudden drop in rear wheel speed after each downshift...
Interesting you should mention the Porsche Cup Cars, the 997 Cup I used to race liked masses of revs on the downshifts for stability, such that you were always banging the limiter on H&T and on a knife edge of buzzing the engine. Not sure why, I didn't know enough at the time to question it, but it did work.Even the GT2 997 RSRs enjoyed a damn good blip, despite much wider tyres and much less camber than a Cup car.
Ahonen said:
cptsideways said:
Sequential gearboxes overide any requirement to heel n toe as you simply can't
I've run a few racecars with sequential boxes where h&t was essential. On a few cars we fitted little devices to the gearlevers, which were also fitted by Porsche on some of their racecars, which prodded the throttle pedal when you pushed the gearlever forwards to go down the box. The drivers loved them because it allowed them to focus fully on braking without having to blip.Same in ff1600. You 'can' drop a gear without H&T, but the risk of the dogs not engaging when you are expecting a bit of engine braking makes it hit and miss.
I suggest this is worth a read, William Hewland, who has made a few gearboxes should know what he is talking about. Of course, I suspect he has not instructed at a rally school though......
http://www.hewland.com/svga/advice.html
I suggest this is worth a read, William Hewland, who has made a few gearboxes should know what he is talking about. Of course, I suspect he has not instructed at a rally school though......
http://www.hewland.com/svga/advice.html
It is instructive to watch the difference between those who do and those who don't in FF1600 , especially at close quarters such as the hairpin at Cadwell. The sound of clashing gears and squeaks from the rear tyres make me wince from those who can't , and if its wet the instability it creates can have dire consequences . That said , a very successful FF1600 driver I knew insisted it was faster without .
I do it all the time , principally because I enjoy it .
I do it all the time , principally because I enjoy it .
It is crushingly depressing listening to very rich men driving stuff like F2, old WSPC cars and even F1 cars without heel and toeing, I am sure Hewland make a fortune out of this awful driving.
But I guess money talks.
I was lucky enough to see the very end of F1 with proper boxes and you could genuinely hear Senna, Prost and the like changing properly, I was always fascinated by those like Cheever who went 6,4,2 and other who went 6,5,4,3,2. Matching it must take some time!
Rallying even harder, and also there were drives like Auriol who never ever left foot braked yet were still mega achievers
But I guess money talks.
I was lucky enough to see the very end of F1 with proper boxes and you could genuinely hear Senna, Prost and the like changing properly, I was always fascinated by those like Cheever who went 6,4,2 and other who went 6,5,4,3,2. Matching it must take some time!
Rallying even harder, and also there were drives like Auriol who never ever left foot braked yet were still mega achievers
If you want to torture yourself, watch and listen to the young and not very rich Alex Rossi trying to heel and toe a Lotus 49 at CoTA .
Some drivers in period were brutal on downchanges - Jarier was a particular offender - but the likes of Stewart and (especially ) Lauda's gearchanging was silky smooth and so bloody fast.
Some drivers in period were brutal on downchanges - Jarier was a particular offender - but the likes of Stewart and (especially ) Lauda's gearchanging was silky smooth and so bloody fast.
I am aware of some drivers who hell and toed in rallying, I know Bertie Fisher and Billy Coleman certainly did as there is footage of them obviously doing so over the years.
But as there are fewer in car cameras back then and usually they were dubbed with poor sounds that did not match the footage it is not easy to catch.
I would say to do it on gravel in rallying is probably pretty hard and far tougher than in other disciplines, and indeed in some cases locking the wheels is a benefit upon downchanging and braking.
I wince at some of the historic drivers you see, I commented on a bloke a few years ago at Monaco doing it, and the poor bugger got so wound up about the comments they were deleted, I mean the car was lovely but you could hear the gearbox breaking and the car complaining, so awfully was it being driven.
Compare that to Martini at the Minardi day or Pirro in events over the years and the joy of hearing someone who can do this properly is music to the ears.
Goodwood is possibly the worst place sadly.
But as there are fewer in car cameras back then and usually they were dubbed with poor sounds that did not match the footage it is not easy to catch.
I would say to do it on gravel in rallying is probably pretty hard and far tougher than in other disciplines, and indeed in some cases locking the wheels is a benefit upon downchanging and braking.
I wince at some of the historic drivers you see, I commented on a bloke a few years ago at Monaco doing it, and the poor bugger got so wound up about the comments they were deleted, I mean the car was lovely but you could hear the gearbox breaking and the car complaining, so awfully was it being driven.
Compare that to Martini at the Minardi day or Pirro in events over the years and the joy of hearing someone who can do this properly is music to the ears.
Goodwood is possibly the worst place sadly.
LukeBrown66 said:
I would say to do it on gravel in rallying is probably pretty hard and far tougher than in other disciplines, and indeed in some cases locking the wheels is a benefit upon downchanging and braking.
No harder to do on gravel than tarmac IMO, and probably more forgiving if you don't get it quite right as the car is generally sliding already (at least to some degree) - less likely to cause a sudden unexpected destabilisation the way a bad downshift can in a Rwd car braking hard on tarmac.Sometimes the wheel locking effect from deliberately not rev-matching (I think drifters call it shift-lock) can be helpful to flick a car into a corner, I use that technique at times during gravel road driving (even works quite well in the Hilux believe it or not!
). I just dabble rather than competing properly though, others may have more knowledge of whether that technique is still useful at fully committed rally pace.
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