Open letter from the MSA - Spectator safety in stage rallies
Discussion
I received this in my inbox an hour ago. Not yet seen the pictures from MN. But being an active Marshal on all levels of rallying events I think I can guess the type of behaviour he's talkig about. People seem to have forgotten that it was also spectator tragedies that saw the end of the 'glory days of rallying'. And if things keep up history is going to repeat itself.
Motorsports Association
Colnbrook, Thursday 19 February 2015
An open letter from the MSA Chief Executive regarding spectator safety on UK stage rallies
This weekend marks the second anniversary of the tragic death of a spectator on the Snowman Rally, and of course on the Jim Clark Rally in 2014 three more spectators lost their lives in equally tragic circumstances.
As a result the Scottish Government, following an emergency debate in the Scottish Parliament, commissioned a major review of safety on stage rallies. This Scottish Government Motorsport Event Safety Review published its final report in January, and the MSA has since gone on record confirming its commitment to the implementation of the report’s recommendations, not only in Scotland but throughout the UK.
Clearly, there is going to be a period of transition while everyone concerned works as hard as possible to introduce the recommended changes. In the interim, I need to remind all spectators of the fact that they are ultimately responsible for their own personal safety.
I say this because despite these well-publicised tragedies, and despite the sport being well aware of the changes being brought about by the Scottish Review, I am astonished and dismayed that an irresponsible minority – and I stress minority – of spectators continue to display a wanton disregard for their own personal well-being.
This was brought home to me when viewing YouTube clips of last weekend’s Wyedean Forest Rally, and also from the truly shocking photograph from the same rally in yesterday’s Motorsport News (18 February, page 34) of a ‘spectator’ lying flat on the ground on the edge of the forest track, apparently taking a photograph extremely close to a competing vehicle.
This behaviour not only shows a complete disregard for personal safety but in addition places other spectators, officials and competing crews in danger. It also undermines the considerable efforts of the dedicated rally organisers, officials and marshals, who do all they can to ensure that events run as safely as possible.
The MSA is currently working on a daily basis with all other stakeholders in rallying, particularly the Forestry Commission, and I can confirm from discussions within the last few days that unless these few idiotic spectators concerned change their attitude immediately and behave responsibly, there will be no future for stage rallying in the UK. I am not talking about next year, or the year after; I am talking about right now. Even in the meantime, this sort of behaviour will mean that stages are cancelled and rallies disrupted or even stopped.
Please, for the sake of rallying in the UK, can all spectators take full responsibility not only for ensuring their own personal safety but also the future of the sport we all love.
Yours in motor sport,
Rob Jones
CHIEF EXECUTIVE
Motorsports Association
Colnbrook, Thursday 19 February 2015
An open letter from the MSA Chief Executive regarding spectator safety on UK stage rallies
This weekend marks the second anniversary of the tragic death of a spectator on the Snowman Rally, and of course on the Jim Clark Rally in 2014 three more spectators lost their lives in equally tragic circumstances.
As a result the Scottish Government, following an emergency debate in the Scottish Parliament, commissioned a major review of safety on stage rallies. This Scottish Government Motorsport Event Safety Review published its final report in January, and the MSA has since gone on record confirming its commitment to the implementation of the report’s recommendations, not only in Scotland but throughout the UK.
Clearly, there is going to be a period of transition while everyone concerned works as hard as possible to introduce the recommended changes. In the interim, I need to remind all spectators of the fact that they are ultimately responsible for their own personal safety.
I say this because despite these well-publicised tragedies, and despite the sport being well aware of the changes being brought about by the Scottish Review, I am astonished and dismayed that an irresponsible minority – and I stress minority – of spectators continue to display a wanton disregard for their own personal well-being.
This was brought home to me when viewing YouTube clips of last weekend’s Wyedean Forest Rally, and also from the truly shocking photograph from the same rally in yesterday’s Motorsport News (18 February, page 34) of a ‘spectator’ lying flat on the ground on the edge of the forest track, apparently taking a photograph extremely close to a competing vehicle.
This behaviour not only shows a complete disregard for personal safety but in addition places other spectators, officials and competing crews in danger. It also undermines the considerable efforts of the dedicated rally organisers, officials and marshals, who do all they can to ensure that events run as safely as possible.
The MSA is currently working on a daily basis with all other stakeholders in rallying, particularly the Forestry Commission, and I can confirm from discussions within the last few days that unless these few idiotic spectators concerned change their attitude immediately and behave responsibly, there will be no future for stage rallying in the UK. I am not talking about next year, or the year after; I am talking about right now. Even in the meantime, this sort of behaviour will mean that stages are cancelled and rallies disrupted or even stopped.
Please, for the sake of rallying in the UK, can all spectators take full responsibility not only for ensuring their own personal safety but also the future of the sport we all love.
Yours in motor sport,
Rob Jones
CHIEF EXECUTIVE
Forgot to ad the pdf link should anyone want it
https://www.msauk.org/assets/stagerallysafetylette...
https://www.msauk.org/assets/stagerallysafetylette...
Support this, or else. I believe this is a very real threat to the future of the sport in the UK. Some of the video/ photos are simply staggering. I really believe we'll likely see the return of the dreaded 'sheep pen'.
However, the cynic in me sees this as an ideal way for the Forestry Commission to drop Rallying, and blame 'spectator idiocy'. The Dukeries will no longer run in June because of 'leisure activities'. Yorkshire only allow a number of events in the year, and none in the summer months. The Malcolm Wilson Rally can only use the Whinlatter stages in early morning presumably because of mountain biking. All ridiculous 'excuses'. A 1 day event really throws a spanner in their works?
However, the cynic in me sees this as an ideal way for the Forestry Commission to drop Rallying, and blame 'spectator idiocy'. The Dukeries will no longer run in June because of 'leisure activities'. Yorkshire only allow a number of events in the year, and none in the summer months. The Malcolm Wilson Rally can only use the Whinlatter stages in early morning presumably because of mountain biking. All ridiculous 'excuses'. A 1 day event really throws a spanner in their works?
I don't think this is directly linked to the forestry commission, this is fall out from the JCR issue.
That said I was on an event last weekend where the FC pulled the permit part way through and pretty much wrecked the rally. I believe this was again related to worries over safety, even though it was a strictly non spectator event.
This situation could ruin rallying at all levels.
Please circulate it far and wide.
That said I was on an event last weekend where the FC pulled the permit part way through and pretty much wrecked the rally. I believe this was again related to worries over safety, even though it was a strictly non spectator event.
This situation could ruin rallying at all levels.
Please circulate it far and wide.
king stupid. Yep, it's not just moronic photographers though, you get the airheads who sit and stand on the outside of corners every time, you seem them everywhere, or they stand in front of a banking on an escape route - who's going to get up the muddy banking faster, you scrambling for grip, or that 1.5 tonnes of steel that's already doing 70mph?
I really don't know what they have between their ears, but I suspect you could do warp 9 through it.
I really don't know what they have between their ears, but I suspect you could do warp 9 through it.
TBH, it's just a reflection of modern times, where apparently, personal responsibility has taken a back seat to, well, everything else.
And, without being there, it's quite difficult to actually identify how "risky" lying in that particular position is, all we can say is that it is more risky than standing in that particular position, as it would take longer to move out of the way. I suspect, that looking at the lay of the land, with a tightish RH bend just up the track, vehicles will be accelerating out of that bend at relatively low speed, and loss of control is unlikely.
The issue is where you draw the line. If you don't want to be injured or killed spectating on a rally, don't go. That is the ONLY way to avoid the risk completely. IMO, if you do go, assuming someone hasn't forced you to go at gun point, you then are responsible for your own safety.
And, without being there, it's quite difficult to actually identify how "risky" lying in that particular position is, all we can say is that it is more risky than standing in that particular position, as it would take longer to move out of the way. I suspect, that looking at the lay of the land, with a tightish RH bend just up the track, vehicles will be accelerating out of that bend at relatively low speed, and loss of control is unlikely.
The issue is where you draw the line. If you don't want to be injured or killed spectating on a rally, don't go. That is the ONLY way to avoid the risk completely. IMO, if you do go, assuming someone hasn't forced you to go at gun point, you then are responsible for your own safety.
Max_Torque said:
TBH, it's just a reflection of modern times, where apparently, personal responsibility has taken a back seat to, well, everything else.
And, without being there, it's quite difficult to actually identify how "risky" lying in that particular position is, all we can say is that it is more risky than standing in that particular position, as it would take longer to move out of the way. I suspect, that looking at the lay of the land, with a tightish RH bend just up the track, vehicles will be accelerating out of that bend at relatively low speed, and loss of control is unlikely.
The issue is where you draw the line. If you don't want to be injured or killed spectating on a rally, don't go. That is the ONLY way to avoid the risk completely. IMO, if you do go, assuming someone hasn't forced you to go at gun point, you then are responsible for your own safety.
Unfortunately, the legal profession don't see any money in your argument...And, without being there, it's quite difficult to actually identify how "risky" lying in that particular position is, all we can say is that it is more risky than standing in that particular position, as it would take longer to move out of the way. I suspect, that looking at the lay of the land, with a tightish RH bend just up the track, vehicles will be accelerating out of that bend at relatively low speed, and loss of control is unlikely.
The issue is where you draw the line. If you don't want to be injured or killed spectating on a rally, don't go. That is the ONLY way to avoid the risk completely. IMO, if you do go, assuming someone hasn't forced you to go at gun point, you then are responsible for your own safety.
Nothing new and to be honest it is better than it used to be! I would say that in the UK there is a minority that will stand anywhere to get the best view and moan if they get hit. However looking back to many foreign Rallies at least we don't have corridors of spectators opening up like a wave in front of the cars anymore.
Max_Torque said:
TBH, it's just a reflection of modern times, where apparently, personal responsibility has taken a back seat to, well, everything else.
And, without being there, it's quite difficult to actually identify how "risky" lying in that particular position is, all we can say is that it is more risky than standing in that particular position, as it would take longer to move out of the way. I suspect, that looking at the lay of the land, with a tightish RH bend just up the track, vehicles will be accelerating out of that bend at relatively low speed, and loss of control is unlikely.
The issue is where you draw the line. If you don't want to be injured or killed spectating on a rally, don't go. That is the ONLY way to avoid the risk completely. IMO, if you do go, assuming someone hasn't forced you to go at gun point, you then are responsible for your own safety.
You've not seen the current crop of 4wd rally cars accelerating on gravel these days I'd assume? or some of the top 2wd for that fact.And, without being there, it's quite difficult to actually identify how "risky" lying in that particular position is, all we can say is that it is more risky than standing in that particular position, as it would take longer to move out of the way. I suspect, that looking at the lay of the land, with a tightish RH bend just up the track, vehicles will be accelerating out of that bend at relatively low speed, and loss of control is unlikely.
The issue is where you draw the line. If you don't want to be injured or killed spectating on a rally, don't go. That is the ONLY way to avoid the risk completely. IMO, if you do go, assuming someone hasn't forced you to go at gun point, you then are responsible for your own safety.
Its not that easy to tell what type of corner it is just before, but regardless of any of those factors, lying in the grass on the side of a rally stage is just down right moronic.
As an active marshal I deal with this type of moronic behaviour most weekends. and more often than not its not the casual spectators at blame but the regulars, comments like "I've been doing this a lot longer than you sonny, I know what to do" are regular.
Sadly, marshal numbers are at rock bottom for most events run these days so its just not possible to have a stage fully manned in all locations. and the current mood is, as long as they are out of my sight they are not my problem exists. Spectators seem to forget that they are still responsible for their own safety in the forests, or over military ranges. Its not uncommon for an event to be delayed on Epynt due to moronic parking blocking access to the emergency vehicles to a stage, or to have our rescue and recovery team deal with an incident involving a spectator car leaving the road or striking a sheep.
Spectators also fail to realise that delays to a stage caused by spectator issues are out of the organisers and marshals control, but that doesn't stop them from having a go, as "they've paid to watch this" unlike the marshals, who are there 3 hrs before the cars & spectators, but never mind that these people have paid so they have a right to have a go
I once saw a yellow clad 'media' person laid prone on the kerb on the outside of a 90 right in the middle of Duns town centre. in the full view of the whole crowd.
How to influence people!!!, I know who the safety officer was that year too and he didn't do anything despite being present.
the Sport doesn't help itself sometimes.
How to influence people!!!, I know who the safety officer was that year too and he didn't do anything despite being present.
the Sport doesn't help itself sometimes.
velocemitch said:
I once saw a yellow clad 'media' person laid prone on the kerb on the outside of a 90 right in the middle of Duns town centre. in the full view of the whole crowd.
How to influence people!!!, I know who the safety officer was that year too and he didn't do anything despite being present.
the Sport doesn't help itself sometimes.
the handling of media can be tricky, for events like Wales Rally, they sign on at the start of an event/stage as us marshals do, and do so with the understanding that they will abide by the rules of the stage commander/media marshals and WRC media observers, and remain in safe locations at all times, just like the marshals.How to influence people!!!, I know who the safety officer was that year too and he didn't do anything despite being present.
the Sport doesn't help itself sometimes.
The difficulty then being that they know they are allowed to go pretty much anywhere they want, but if a marshal deems their location to be to risky they can ask them to move, failure to do so is then the following procedure - Get their tabbard/pass media number - radio it through to the Stage Commander - then watch the individual answer his/her phone (if they get signal) to be informed by Rally HQ that their media accreditation has been revoked with immediate effect and they are to surrender their tabbard and pass to the nearest marshal/radio car.
I've dealt with one on WRGB 2-3 years ago and despite politely asking him to get out of the head-tyre level ditch he was currently camped in he blatantly refused, I asked his media number and he refused to provide it, I asked again and radio'd to my section commander who told me to flag down the next passing officials car, I did this and who should be sat in the back, but none other than Michele Mouton, a quick chat with her and he quickly left my location to bother someone else I imagined.
The other difficulty with media is that the spectators fancying themselves as photographers then move to the media's location thinking he knows where to get the best shot from, causing him to take up a different location that probably isn't as safe.
On most national rounds officials and media teams know each other well so there's a bit more leniency towards where they are stood, safe or not quite as.
Most marshals are fine but I do encounter the odd officious little idiot when I marshalled myself - one reason I gave up doing it. Spectators do behave idiotically , I think usually because they simply cannot conceive of a car coming off and not being able to avoid it rather than deliberate risk taking. I am one of the 'been doing it for years ' demographic and because (or despite)of that the first rule for me is to be on top of a nice high bank(not a log pile .. ) and /or get behind a tree and a substantial one at that. I was watching a rally yesterday ,in fact, and the thing that really pissed me off was the bad behaviour of a minority of spectators . Effing and blinding loudly with young kids about , snapping off branches to get a better view , lots of litter (some of which I collected and took home) and avoiding the parking charge(£10 a car )by churning up verges and making the road near impassable in places.
Many corners are now taped off, often wrongly as the assumption is made that cars always go off by either going straight on or going off on the outside. This despite the fact that many tankslappers end up going off on the inside.
It is a difficult balance between spectator safety and liberty to enjoy the sport. All an organiser can do is take reasonable care to minimise risk but the watching public needs to do its bit to learn how to behave. Not just on the stage but driving to and from it- I still shudder at the appalling behaviour of many on the RAC in the Pickering area in the 80s and early 90s. Gates taken down , fences broken , insane driving in villages etc. It is all very well moaning about the Forestry Commission and other interests but we need to tidy up our act too.
Many corners are now taped off, often wrongly as the assumption is made that cars always go off by either going straight on or going off on the outside. This despite the fact that many tankslappers end up going off on the inside.
It is a difficult balance between spectator safety and liberty to enjoy the sport. All an organiser can do is take reasonable care to minimise risk but the watching public needs to do its bit to learn how to behave. Not just on the stage but driving to and from it- I still shudder at the appalling behaviour of many on the RAC in the Pickering area in the 80s and early 90s. Gates taken down , fences broken , insane driving in villages etc. It is all very well moaning about the Forestry Commission and other interests but we need to tidy up our act too.
Have to feel for organisers. Most put decent speccy info on their websites; ask people to respect the local village by driving carefully and courteously, not to park on verges, etc
And what happens?? Exactly... All to avoid paying £5/10 to park.
One would hope this is a wake up call for the idiotic minority, but I doubt they care.
And what happens?? Exactly... All to avoid paying £5/10 to park.
One would hope this is a wake up call for the idiotic minority, but I doubt they care.
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