Discussion
hornet said:
Being airlifted. Hoping for positive news.
Really don't know how I feel about ovals any more. I'm all for exciting racing, but it increasingly feels like it's on a constant knife edge and I'm increasingly struggling to enjoy watching it. Things seem to be on the cusp of disaster all the time, and it makes me feel deeply uneasy.
ETA - also, people moaning about the race finishing under yellow. Really? Of all the concerns you could have at the moment, that's the one you're choosing to voice?
this incident could've occurred on a road or street course, or in another open cockpit series such as f1Really don't know how I feel about ovals any more. I'm all for exciting racing, but it increasingly feels like it's on a constant knife edge and I'm increasingly struggling to enjoy watching it. Things seem to be on the cusp of disaster all the time, and it makes me feel deeply uneasy.
ETA - also, people moaning about the race finishing under yellow. Really? Of all the concerns you could have at the moment, that's the one you're choosing to voice?
Edited by hornet on Sunday 23 August 23:18
acf8181 said:
this incident could've occurred on a road or street course, or in another open cockpit series such as f1
It's less this specific incident and more what seems to have been a shift in attitude of late. The oval races just seem more on edge than before, but it's being passed off as exciting racing rather than a concern. The worry is it'll end up like NASCAR, where "The Big One" is almost a brand image. People are b
hing and moaning on Twitter that the race finished under yellows for crying out loud, as though their entertainment is somehow more important than Justin Wilson's health at that point in time. The metric for a quality race shouldn't be how many massive crashes or near misses we had, or how many bone headed moves people pull, but that's what it's starting to feel like. Genuinely sad to see Wilson caught up in a nasty incident. I was one of the many shareholders that coughed up to get him in to F1, and basically he's never really got the car under him he deserved. He gets a fistful of races this year, gets a podium a couple of weeks ago, and now this. I mean what are the chances?
I'm taking the tyre smoke before he hit the wall as some faint hope he was able to lump the anchors on, but I'm fearing the worst
I'm taking the tyre smoke before he hit the wall as some faint hope he was able to lump the anchors on, but I'm fearing the worst
Fingers crossed he's not seriously injured
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khXcB3cPynU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khXcB3cPynU
Edited by MartG on Monday 24th August 00:47
It was a very crazy race, but ovals are always on the edge of disaster, it's how the drivers behave that is the defining factor. It does seem in this day & age, with modern safety advances and the intensity of modern competition that drivers are pushing the envelope perhaps to a higher degree than in the past. Just look at how the F3 racers have been racing of late, or GP2 - the clamour to be sucessful just a rung or two below the F1 ladder quite often breeds insane and very dangerous driving, trying to find the nth degree of advantage and performance.
Speed Badger said:
It was a very crazy race, but ovals are always on the edge of disaster, it's how the drivers behave that is the defining factor. It does seem in this day & age, with modern safety advances and the intensity of modern competition that drivers are pushing the envelope perhaps to a higher degree than in the past. Just look at how the F3 racers have been racing of late, or GP2 - the clamour to be sucessful just a rung or two below the F1 ladder quite often breeds insane and very dangerous driving, trying to find the nth degree of advantage and performance.
But aren't the margins between crazy manoeuvre, and inspired driving incredibly fine? See Max Verstappens pass round the outside at Spa (Round Blanchimont?). DC raved about the overtake, as "nobody overtakes on the outside there", but a few more inches to the right, and it would have been a classic rookie error.
The issue with ovals to me seems to be that no matter where you crash, the debris always gets sprayed over the track, as there is nowhere else for it to go. Ovals I guess also make evasive action more dangerous, as it is easier to lose control?
Speed Badger said:
It was a very crazy race, but ovals are always on the edge of disaster, it's how the drivers behave that is the defining factor.
The thing that worries me is that it increasingly feels like "crazy race" and "big oval" are becoming default settings. Given the intensity of Indycar competition of late, should they really be visiting tracks that both allow the extreme behaviour and exacerbate the severity of the outcomes? Wilson's crash is a horrible example of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but Karam was the eighth or ninth car in the wall at that point in the race, which I think should raise questions as to the suitability of the venue. Even if you discount driver safety concerns, I can't see how such a high attrition rate can be good for a series that's struggled financially for so long? Not sure I'd view the races as quite so exciting if I was paying the repair bills.hornet said:
The thing that worries me is that it increasingly feels like "crazy race" and "big oval" are becoming default settings. Given the intensity of Indycar competition of late, should they really be visiting tracks that both allow the extreme behaviour and exacerbate the severity of the outcomes? Wilson's crash is a horrible example of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but Karam was the eighth or ninth car in the wall at that point in the race, which I think should raise questions as to the suitability of the venue. Even if you discount driver safety concerns, I can't see how such a high attrition rate can be good for a series that's struggled financially for so long? Not sure I'd view the races as quite so exciting if I was paying the repair bills.
Good point. There's been some stick aimed at Karem online and I don't get it, pure misfortune. However, I've noticed over the years that the driving standards in the series would be welcome only at a BTCC race.hornet said:
The thing that worries me is that it increasingly feels like "crazy race" and "big oval" are becoming default settings. Given the intensity of Indycar competition of late, should they really be visiting tracks that both allow the extreme behaviour and exacerbate the severity of the outcomes? Wilson's crash is a horrible example of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but Karam was the eighth or ninth car in the wall at that point in the race, which I think should raise questions as to the suitability of the venue. Even if you discount driver safety concerns, I can't see how such a high attrition rate can be good for a series that's struggled financially for so long? Not sure I'd view the races as quite so exciting if I was paying the repair bills.
That's true, we do seem to have had a few mad ovals this year with many cars abreast, inches from a Las Vegas 2011. However I would say that at Pocono last year there was only one caution period all race long due to Graham Rahal spinning, but then continuing. Nobody crashed at all in the race.
hornet said:
It's less this specific incident and more what seems to have been a shift in attitude of late. The oval races just seem more on edge than before, but it's being passed off as exciting racing rather than a concern. The worry is it'll end up like NASCAR, where "The Big One" is almost a brand image.
Not sure I would agree with that.It was worse in the Dallara spec/IRL era and NASCAR style pack racing, in a pack 2/3 wide. Fontana this year had that style of racing and a car went airbourne - previous races the cars could stretch and previous races at Pocono were on the side of snoozefests.
For sure this year's superspeedway aero kit have been controversial. I prefer the style of racing where you have sling shots rather than lap after lap wheel to wheel where the driver is just hanging on.
Excitement and danger is a rather fine line. What F1 wouldn't give to go back to Monza and sling shot like the old days as Indycar does at Indy and Pocono.
entropy said:
For sure this year's superspeedway aero kit have been controversial. I prefer the style of racing where you have sling shots rather than lap after lap wheel to wheel where the driver is just hanging on.
Excitement and danger is a rather fine line. What F1 wouldn't give to go back to Monza and sling shot like the old days as Indycar does at Indy and Pocono.
I think it comes down to where you think excitement ends and tempting fate begins. I love side by side racing when it's a move being performed, but when the nature of the whole race is just lap after lap side by side, it's just asking for bad things to happen IMO. The attitude shift, at least as I perceive it, is the normalisation of the "always side by side" racing as the product.Excitement and danger is a rather fine line. What F1 wouldn't give to go back to Monza and sling shot like the old days as Indycar does at Indy and Pocono.
hornet said:
I think it comes down to where you think excitement ends and tempting fate begins. I love side by side racing when it's a move being performed, but when the nature of the whole race is just lap after lap side by side, it's just asking for bad things to happen IMO. The attitude shift, at least as I perceive it, is the normalisation of the "always side by side" racing as the product.
I wouldn't say its a shift or normalization of attitudes. Indycar is stuck in a rut. Apart from Memorial Day and perhaps people who go to Iowa hardly anyone watches Indycars regardless of how good the show is and the bottom line is that sport is entertainment. FourWheelDrift said:
I missed the end, very nice tribute to Justin before the race, British national anthem played everyone stood up.
Yes, very movingFourWheelDrift said:
Then some x-factor reject destroyed the US anthem and normality was resumed.
Ah, the benefits of recording and being able to fast forward 
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