VLN crash at Nurburgring, at least one spectator killed :(

VLN crash at Nurburgring, at least one spectator killed :(

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Discussion

Dyl

1,248 posts

209 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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This crash came to mind when talking about inadequate catch fencing or people on the wrong side of it. There were a lot of lucky photographers and marshals that day!

Although it frustrated massively, it's when I see accidents like this and the GT-R at Nurburgring that I understand why the Mulsanne Straight is kept away from spectators these days.

soad

32,829 posts

175 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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Alex Langheck said:
Isn't Flugplatz the corner, named after the old airstrip - and not the jump?
Could well be.

Literally translated, Flugplatz means "Flying place"?

shaunsmith

1,226 posts

216 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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I stood at that exact place last year sourcing all the viewing points around the track in between TF/DN. I thought at the time I wouldn't stand here on the Flugplatz bend facing the large crest. To see the area from a spectator perspective with the elevation, terrain etc blew me away compared to being on track. It sent me cold seeing what happened on Saturday with the very unfortunate consequences. I'm truly saddened for the family's loss.

Simply backing off slightly there by the racers knowing some cars suffer with severe lift off especially the Nissan by the looks of previous photo's & footage. The Nissan driver and Nissan must surely be aware of previous lift off issues at that section in the Nissan GTR's.

With the Nissan now impounded, the in car footage etc would confirm if it lifted at all on each completed lap, if it did common sense should of prevailed to slightly back off the speed momentarily.

I have done over a thousand laps of the Ring, certain area's require extra caution and that is one of them over that crest especially. I'm no racer but have a lot of experience on the Ring for over 10 years. What I keep thinking about is the young driver who won a PlayStation competition to end up racing in such a beast as a race GTR. What experience has he had on the Ring? then to competitively race on it keeps coming to mind. If it were an 'experienced' Ring racer perhaps caution there would of prevailed. Hope I'm wrong.

I hope racing continues at the Ring. It has become a huge part of my life but some of the viewing areas need addressing without doubt Flugplatz especially.

Truly saddened, my condolences go to the family.

DS240

4,637 posts

217 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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Dyl said:
This crash came to mind when talking about inadequate catch fencing or people on the wrong side of it. There were a lot of lucky photographers and marshals that day!

Although it frustrated massively, it's when I see accidents like this and the GT-R at Nurburgring that I understand why the Mulsanne Straight is kept away from spectators these days.
Indeed, there were very lucky marshals and photographers that day. If that car had gone over the armco it would have been horrific.

However, that was also an unsual accident in terms of the path a car took towards that barrier. The spectators i think would have been okay, they are raised up and also had the fencing.

But the marshals and photographers have the closer access with full knowledge they are in a higher risk area.

Re. the ring incident.
I guess they need to suspend things and assess what happended. It was a unusual incident and not helped if reports of the spectators sat in front of the fencing is correct. Not really sure what the answer would be to prevent it happening again.

RB Will

9,662 posts

239 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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Munter said:
Also has anybody seen safety fencing do it's job.
it did a pretty good job here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-9bhZUlavc

If I remember correctly this was the first race weekend after the fence and concrete wall had been installed too!

Munter

31,319 posts

240 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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RB Will said:
Munter said:
Also has anybody seen safety fencing do it's job.
it did a pretty good job here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-9bhZUlavc

If I remember correctly this was the first race weekend after the fence and concrete wall had been installed too!
Good call, also the McNish video above the fence catches some of the debris that would have hit the crowd, and now I've thought about it a bit longer Dario Franchitti was stopped by some during his last accident/race. So it has done it's job. But my memory needs work!

zebedee

4,589 posts

277 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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designndrive62 said:
DanielSan said:
Seems an over reaction to be honest. How many times do GT cars race there and nothing happens? Banning them for once freak incident is ridiculous.
Agreed. This is a horrible accident, but surely an examination of the circuit should happen before types of cars are banned. Surely they should look at increasing run/off or enforcing no spectating zones in dangerous areas, or even reprofiling bumps/corners if required, rather than leaving everything as is and banning the running of certain cars.
Unless flat bottoms are new to GT3 this year? Probably not the way to go really. RIP to the spectator and stay strong Jann, doesn't look like he did anything wrong at all.

sad61t

1,100 posts

209 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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Munter said:
Makes me wonder if we should allow movable aero. Where if the front wheels become unloaded, a wing pops up/something else and forces them down again.

It can't be quite as simple as the nascar "roof flaps" for when they end up going backwards.

Also has anybody seen safety fencing do it's job. I only ask because the 2 times I remember it featuring was Thruxton where a 911 just about vaulted it on a BTCC weekend (Kelvin Birt?), and now this. It's already in the way visually for the spectator, so could it be twice the height?
The Nascar flaps are purely aero - if the car is travelling backwards, air gets under the panels and lifts them creating drag. If the car is going backwards things have gone really obviously wrong. No load on the front tyres is much harder to discern and would need an active monitor to deploy a spoiler against the airflow or reduce power to the back wheels in a very short time (before the flip becomes irretrievable). Any subtle aero shift could be relied upon by the team, until it fails one lap and the driver, used to driving within the active envelope, has to cope with a suddenly non-active car; I think this is the main reason why active aero is discouraged.

One way would be to include footage of the section during scrutineering - if there's obvious lift, or zero-load on the available telemetry, then the car would fail scrutineering and require adjustments to be made. It's likely this route that the organisers and DMSB are considering but they know far more about the cars than I do and may have other, far better, ideas.

huffysteve

78 posts

206 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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Munter said:
Also has anybody seen safety fencing do it's job.
I'm sure a z4 gt3 was stopped by a fence here a few years ago ?

zebedee

4,589 posts

277 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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shaunsmith said:
...What I keep thinking about is the young driver who won a PlayStation competition to end up racing in such a beast as a race GTR. What experience has he had on the Ring? then to competitively race on it keeps coming to mind. If it were an 'experienced' Ring racer perhaps caution there would of prevailed. Hope I'm wrong...
From his GT Academy profile:

"Once Mardenborough completed the Drivers Development Program, he took to the track as a pro. He impressed Nissan’s race team right away, finishing Third In Class at the 24 Hours of Dubai. Then, armed with a Nissan Nismo GT-R GT3 racecar, he competed in the 2012 Blancpain Endurance Series and 2012 British GT Championships. While driving in the latter, he took pole position at the famed Nürburgring racetrack and ultimately finished Third Place, driving with his GT Academy teammate Alex Buncombe. They later won the race at Brands Hatch and placed Third at Snetterton."

He is of course driving an LMP1 this season, as well as GP3 again. He is more talented than a lot of racers to be fair.

jamespink

1,218 posts

203 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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This is a tragedy for the killed or wounded spectators and their families but why is everyone surprised when a flat bottom car takes off cresting a brow? As soon as this type of car gets the start of a cushion of air under it, the rest is inevitable. The created cushion of air, even at moderate speeds, is enough to lift hundreds of tons (see Ekranoplan videos on Youtube) let alone a sub 1000 Kg racer. Take any flat bottom structure (racing hydrofoil is another example) and watch what happens when the front lifts outside very modest angles - Bluebird is another. Its an "all or nothing" design that needs automated wings to control (Thrust 2 for example). It all happens too quickly for manual control.

airbusA346

779 posts

152 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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shaunsmith said:
What experience has he had on the Ring?
This was his first VLN race as far as I am aware.

ERIKM400

115 posts

131 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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Munter said:
Also has anybody seen safety fencing do it's job?
I have seen it hold back a 5 tonnes FIA Race Truck travelling at 160km/h.

huffysteve

78 posts

206 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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Well I think the fence stops it.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZejhAsKlj5w

Munter

31,319 posts

240 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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Ok ok...it works. Just my experience/memory needed updating. smile

zebedee

4,589 posts

277 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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airbusA346 said:
This was his first VLN race as far as I am aware.
got pole brit gt, but of course that wouldn't be nordschleife

Edited by zebedee on Monday 30th March 15:58


Seems like it was his first time there in a race car:
http://www.nissan.com.au/Discover/News/2015/March/...


Edited by zebedee on Monday 30th March 16:03

andylaurence

438 posts

210 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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RB Will said:
it did a pretty good job here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-9bhZUlavc

If I remember correctly this was the first race weekend after the fence and concrete wall had been installed too!
The same fence saved a pit lane full of people from my wheel when it exited stage left a few years back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2uFWVrWC4o

eastlmark

1,654 posts

206 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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wasn't the Ring deemed unsafe for racing many years ago? They seemed to have gone back to proper racing there almost by Stealth, introducing faster classes to the N24/VLN etc (as someone else pointed out, it was originally caged road cars and club racers IIRC ). Not checked but I am guessing that the faster GT cars are now faster than the Group C cars that raced at the time it was closed as unsafe. (Yes I know the ultimate lap record was a Group C car)

spadriver

1,488 posts

170 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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It was F1 that was stopped just after Nikki Lauders horrific accident.Simply ban the undertrays.Little bit of lift, freakish gust of wind is enough to lift any car.
Deepest sympathy to the race fans family, and a very speedy and complete recovery to the injured.
Flugplatz is one of those historic sections-cars get airborn and have done for many years.Fangio in a 250F, that took some doing!.

Dr S

4,995 posts

225 months

Monday 30th March 2015
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airbusA346 said:
shaunsmith said:
What experience has he had on the Ring?
This was his first VLN race as far as I am aware.
He must have had Ring experience. The new two tier Ring licence requires a defined minimum amount of Ring race experience in order to be allowed into cars with the power-to-weight ratio of the GTR