VLN crash at Nurburgring, at least one spectator killed :(
Discussion
shaunsmith said:
zebedee said:
airbusA346 said:
This was his first VLN race as far as I am aware.
got pole brit gt, but of course that wouldn't be nordschleifeEdited by zebedee on Monday 30th March 15:58
Seems like it was his first time there in a race car:
http://www.nissan.com.au/Discover/News/2015/March/...
Edited by zebedee on Monday 30th March 16:03
To summarise, to be selected for an event like this in such a car with near no experience (8 laps in a hatchback) with his mate another virtual warrior, seemingly no adequate training with Nissan on the Ring which isn't a normal track compared to any other is criminal especially with the now tragic circumstances.
pigeonskirt said:
Calling him a "virtual warrior" is a little unfair IMO. His background though obviously different doesn't make him any less talented. Besides, I doubt any racing driver could have saved that. A tragic accident for everyone involved.
People get hung up on the whole "gamer" thing. All the game is used for is a way to select a few thousand people who understand a few simple concepts about racing.You could take the top few thousand people out of a crowd at a race meeting based on a questionnaire and it'd do basically the same job. It's essentially just a numbers game.
But since then he's had what, 4 years of top flight motorsport. Run in LMP2 at Le Mans twice, managing a podium once. He's not playing at it on the weekends as a gentleman racer, it's his job. Nissan are not paying him out of loyalty by now, it's because they think he's got it. And Red Bull didn't sign him up for no reason either.
None of that gives him experience on the 'ring. But he's definitely not a "virtual warrior".
Lewis Hamilton often raced online with his brother and as for pros on games there are many, iRacing actually has an online list - http://www.iracing.com/testimonials/
And of course many professional racing teams use simulators.
And of course many professional racing teams use simulators.
shaunsmith said:
he drivers statement on that link just sums up what I hoped wasn't the case.
To summarise, to be selected for an event like this in such a car with near no experience (8 laps in a hatchback) with his mate another virtual warrior, seemingly no adequate training with Nissan on the Ring which isn't a normal track compared to any other is criminal especially with the now tragic circumstances.
There could be a case here for commercial manslaughter involving Nissan and even perhaps Sony's involvement at the inception.
I can't imagine the poor family what they are going through at this time and probably indefinitely is absolutely terrible.
You absolute, insensitive, aTo summarise, to be selected for an event like this in such a car with near no experience (8 laps in a hatchback) with his mate another virtual warrior, seemingly no adequate training with Nissan on the Ring which isn't a normal track compared to any other is criminal especially with the now tragic circumstances.
There could be a case here for commercial manslaughter involving Nissan and even perhaps Sony's involvement at the inception.
I can't imagine the poor family what they are going through at this time and probably indefinitely is absolutely terrible.
hole. Jann has proved himself to be the real deal, with a win in GP3 and being so competitive at Le Mans 24 hour, also not your average race, that he got to do the start of it. He didn't put a foot wrong and has really made a name for himself.
Just because other parents have enough money to take their kids racing, doesn't mean that alternative routes into motorsport should be dismissed. As I mentioned earlier in this topic, I have reached the UK finals of the GT Academy twice and I even worked for the team as a mechanic that Jann was racing for that day. I find your words incredibly offensive to everyone from Nissan, Sony, Polyphony and everyone else in the racing community who has sung Jann's praises as being every bit as worthy being a racing driver at his level. I could name these companies if you so wish!
The Nurburgring is a special circuit, but so are places like La Sarthe, Bathurst and Spa...all races where the GT Academy graduates have exceeded expectations.
Your attitude is an embarrassment for PistonHeads and everyone else who is a motorsport enthusiast.
Munter said:
People get hung up on the whole "gamer" thing. All the game is used for is a way to select a few thousand people who understand a few simple concepts about racing.
You could take the top few thousand people out of a crowd at a race meeting based on a questionnaire and it'd do basically the same job. It's essentially just a numbers game.
But since then he's had what, 4 years of top flight motorsport. Run in LMP2 at Le Mans twice, managing a podium once. He's not playing at it on the weekends as a gentleman racer, it's his job. Nissan are not paying him out of loyalty by now, it's because they think he's got it. And Red Bull didn't sign him up for no reason either.
None of that gives him experience on the 'ring. But he's definitely not a "virtual warrior".
Could have happened to any driver with that car/environment/location. Having said, the more experienced 'Ring meisters may not have been going so quickly. All speculation - car design, aero, & location but ultimately the driver determines the speed.You could take the top few thousand people out of a crowd at a race meeting based on a questionnaire and it'd do basically the same job. It's essentially just a numbers game.
But since then he's had what, 4 years of top flight motorsport. Run in LMP2 at Le Mans twice, managing a podium once. He's not playing at it on the weekends as a gentleman racer, it's his job. Nissan are not paying him out of loyalty by now, it's because they think he's got it. And Red Bull didn't sign him up for no reason either.
None of that gives him experience on the 'ring. But he's definitely not a "virtual warrior".
FourWheelDrift said:
And of course many professional racing teams use simulators.
Good point!Munter said:
People get hung up on the whole "gamer" thing. All the game is used for is a way to select a few thousand people who understand a few simple concepts about racing.
You could take the top few thousand people out of a crowd at a race meeting based on a questionnaire and it'd do basically the same job. It's essentially just a numbers game.
But since then he's had what, 4 years of top flight motorsport. Run in LMP2 at Le Mans twice, managing a podium once. He's not playing at it on the weekends as a gentleman racer, it's his job. Nissan are not paying him out of loyalty by now, it's because they think he's got it. And Red Bull didn't sign him up for no reason either.
None of that gives him experience on the 'ring. But he's definitely not a "virtual warrior".
He's a talented racer, no doubt about it. Just a shame others are suggesting his roots in computer gaming are part of the blame for this tragedy. They are wrong, and as another poster previously pointed out, insensitive.You could take the top few thousand people out of a crowd at a race meeting based on a questionnaire and it'd do basically the same job. It's essentially just a numbers game.
But since then he's had what, 4 years of top flight motorsport. Run in LMP2 at Le Mans twice, managing a podium once. He's not playing at it on the weekends as a gentleman racer, it's his job. Nissan are not paying him out of loyalty by now, it's because they think he's got it. And Red Bull didn't sign him up for no reason either.
None of that gives him experience on the 'ring. But he's definitely not a "virtual warrior".
SpeedMattersNot said:
...
Just because other parents have enough money to take their kids racing, doesn't mean that alternative routes into motorsport should be dismissed.
...
Just for the record, playing car racing games is obviously not one of those 'alternative routes into motorsport', I assume we all agree on that ?Just because other parents have enough money to take their kids racing, doesn't mean that alternative routes into motorsport should be dismissed.
...
shaunsmith said:
he drivers statement on that link just sums up what I hoped wasn't the case.
To summarise, to be selected for an event like this in such a car with near no experience (8 laps in a hatchback) with his mate another virtual warrior, seemingly no adequate training with Nissan on the Ring which isn't a normal track compared to any other is criminal especially with the now tragic circumstances.
There could be a case here for commercial manslaughter involving Nissan and even perhaps Sony's involvement at the inception.
I can't imagine the poor family what they are going through at this time and probably indefinitely is absolutely terrible.
You are wrong, and a plonker.To summarise, to be selected for an event like this in such a car with near no experience (8 laps in a hatchback) with his mate another virtual warrior, seemingly no adequate training with Nissan on the Ring which isn't a normal track compared to any other is criminal especially with the now tragic circumstances.
There could be a case here for commercial manslaughter involving Nissan and even perhaps Sony's involvement at the inception.
I can't imagine the poor family what they are going through at this time and probably indefinitely is absolutely terrible.
You're wrong, because
1) This has never happened before. If it was foreseeable, they wouldn't have allowed spectators to sit there. How was Jann meant to anticipate something happening which has never happened to a GT3 car ever before? Hindsight is 20/20, that isn't useful in determining what people could reasonably have been expected to have done at the time.
2) Usually in accidents when the driver is to blame, they don't ban the whole class of racing car from that circuit. Their response shows that those in charge understand that this isn't a driver issue, but a car/track compatibility one.
You're a plonker, because you're blaming someone for causing the death of a child, without having provided any reason for thinking that they did anything different to what every other driver was doing every lap, or that anyone could have anticipated this tragedy.
horst 2b said:
Just for the record, playing car racing games is obviously not one of those 'alternative routes into motorsport', I assume we all agree on that ?
It's a route that got Jann into motorsport and it's not conventional, so by definition it is an alternative route into motorsport.The GT Academy programme was devised partly for marketing ("It could be you!", and "Look how realistic we are!") and partly to find an actual racing driver. There is no way that Jann would have been in that car if he hadn't shown some serious prowess behind the wheel as well as behind the PS wheel. Yes, there are shortcomings in simulations (not feeling forces etc) but they are beyond legitimate learning tools in this day and age. It's not like Hotline Miami any more.
horst 2b said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
...
Just because other parents have enough money to take their kids racing, doesn't mean that alternative routes into motorsport should be dismissed.
...
Just for the record, playing car racing games is obviously not one of those 'alternative routes into motorsport', I assume we all agree on that ?Just because other parents have enough money to take their kids racing, doesn't mean that alternative routes into motorsport should be dismissed.
...
It's not just Gran Turismo either, iRacing competiton winners can win seasons driving in Skip Barber and an MX5 championship.
Even Universities eliminate some of their driver hopefuls in formula student by working with simulator companies.
Deal with it.
horst 2b said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
...
Just because other parents have enough money to take their kids racing, doesn't mean that alternative routes into motorsport should be dismissed.
...
Just for the record, playing car racing games is obviously not one of those 'alternative routes into motorsport', I assume we all agree on that ?Just because other parents have enough money to take their kids racing, doesn't mean that alternative routes into motorsport should be dismissed.
...
Name me one genuinely talented modern day driver who's got there without massive financial backing?
Calling Jan a 'virtual warrior' is completely unjust.
Its like calling 99% of the other drivers 'spoilt rich kids' as thats the only other way most other drivers get into grids like this. Theres very few drivers out there who have come through the ranks with very little money behind them.
Hes an excellent driver, putting most other 'more experienced' drivers to shame in almost every series he's raced in. The guy has talent, he's just been spotted in a very unorthodox way.
Anyway, this is car design error more so than driver error surely? Cars like these shouldn't be able to get this much lift over the crest of the hill. Theres many famous pictures of drivers getting air at the ring in past years, but to my knowledge none have ever ended up flying.
Its like calling 99% of the other drivers 'spoilt rich kids' as thats the only other way most other drivers get into grids like this. Theres very few drivers out there who have come through the ranks with very little money behind them.
Hes an excellent driver, putting most other 'more experienced' drivers to shame in almost every series he's raced in. The guy has talent, he's just been spotted in a very unorthodox way.
Anyway, this is car design error more so than driver error surely? Cars like these shouldn't be able to get this much lift over the crest of the hill. Theres many famous pictures of drivers getting air at the ring in past years, but to my knowledge none have ever ended up flying.
wst said:
t's a route that got Jann into motorsport and it's not conventional, so by definition it is an alternative route into motorsport.
The GT Academy programme was devised partly for marketing ("It could be you!", and "Look how realistic we are!") and partly to find an actual racing driver. There is no way that Jann would have been in that car if he hadn't shown some serious prowess behind the wheel as well as behind the PS wheel. Yes, there are shortcomings in simulations (not feeling forces etc) but they are beyond legitimate learning tools in this day and age. It's not like Hotline Miami any more.
Its not like its the first car Jann has ever drove either, he's raced LMP2, F3, GP3, has driven an LMP1 car, as well a range of GT cars. A race winner in F3, GP3 and GT as well as a 3rd place in class at Le Mans. This guys talent and experience shouldn't really be called into question. Its just a very unfortunate accident.The GT Academy programme was devised partly for marketing ("It could be you!", and "Look how realistic we are!") and partly to find an actual racing driver. There is no way that Jann would have been in that car if he hadn't shown some serious prowess behind the wheel as well as behind the PS wheel. Yes, there are shortcomings in simulations (not feeling forces etc) but they are beyond legitimate learning tools in this day and age. It's not like Hotline Miami any more.
Watch this video at 5:12 (pause it on 5:15 exactly) for a very graphic display of the kind of attitude a car can take going over fluplatz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvrG2Q3GTLc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvrG2Q3GTLc
FourWheelDrift said:
And of course many professional racing teams use simulators.
I think people here seem to forget that most, if not all, the top Racing/F1 teams use simulators with their drivers these days. No it doesn't give them the environmental effects of wind and such, but as near as possible it is accurate to real driving. Just look at the comparison videos for the upcoming game Project Cars.Sebastien Loeb admitted to learning the Le Mans track on the playstation on his flight over and finished 2nd O/A in 2006
Quite frankly, and in my honest opinion, saying that Jann is just a gamer and not a real racing driver like those who've come up from amateur series/karting is b
ks. mattshiz said:
Its not like its the first car Jann has ever drove either, he's raced LMP2, F3, GP3, has driven an LMP1 car, as well a range of GT cars. A race winner in F3, GP3 and GT as well as a 3rd place in class at Le Mans. This guys talent and experience shouldn't really be called into question. Its just a very unfortunate accident.
This.It may be his first race at the ring in the GT3 car, but he surely would have had a good few laps in practice/qualifying to get to know parts of the course, and there's nothing to say that on each lap he's completed the car never got air at flugplatz except for this one lap. We know nothing of the circumstances so far, I'm sure they are studying his incar and data to determine. But in all likelihood it could just be that he was gaining confidence with each passing lap, and so increasing speed, until this fateful one. We don't even know if wind played a factor in making the car go beyond the point of control.
Labelling him an amateur and just a games/warrior is both insulting and insensitive. He's probably got more experience than quite a few of the other pay drivers on that grid, obviously they didn't have any incidents as they didn't have the urge/ability to push like Jann.
Edit to ad - - -
Specators will go where they please, and are not always aware of the dangers where they are. On a rally stage the first thing I notice is spectators sitting stage side, and I ask them how quickly they can move should a car leave the stage. the same applies to any racing series.
Unless you are sitting next to a big tree/in a grandstand or high above the track then you're just a sitting target. no ifs no buts imho.
Edited by RyanTank on Tuesday 31st March 10:05
Edited by RyanTank on Tuesday 31st March 10:06
Reardy Mister said:
Watch this video at 5:12 (pause it on 5:15 exactly) for a very graphic display of the kind of attitude a car can take going over fluplatz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvrG2Q3GTLc
And at 6:24 Note where the spectators arehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvrG2Q3GTLc
Reading through the thread there seem to be some inaccuracies.
One is of a child being the victim.Being reported over here the victim was a Dutch guy.
Dont blame the driver-he was a passenger.
There are several photos of various GTRs taking air at various points around here, not just Flugplatz.The tendency was noted by Nissan a few years back.
Sure, people should not be allowed to be in front of barriers the practice is very common, possibly a marshaling issue? They are quick enough to start blowing whistles in the uk.
There has been quite some bad feeling regarding the criteria for obtaining a Nordschleif permit, as it clearly states that proof of participation in at least one VLN is required.This is because of the Rings unique layout/narrowness.
Not sure how else one would be deemed as eligible for a Permit.
One is of a child being the victim.Being reported over here the victim was a Dutch guy.
Dont blame the driver-he was a passenger.
There are several photos of various GTRs taking air at various points around here, not just Flugplatz.The tendency was noted by Nissan a few years back.
Sure, people should not be allowed to be in front of barriers the practice is very common, possibly a marshaling issue? They are quick enough to start blowing whistles in the uk.
There has been quite some bad feeling regarding the criteria for obtaining a Nordschleif permit, as it clearly states that proof of participation in at least one VLN is required.This is because of the Rings unique layout/narrowness.
Not sure how else one would be deemed as eligible for a Permit.
Obviously lets try and keep this as much about the life lost - so firstly R.I.P to the kid who died.
Secondly - I was gutted was I read it was Jann.
However, I don't see what he has done wrong? I don't think anyone would be lifting/backing off in case the car took off? Its just not wired in to a racers brain.
Do any of the other pro's lift in advance in a GT3 car - do we have any data to prove that?
Its a freak accident, from a drivers perspective - not sure if its such a freak accident from a car design, flat bottomed cars etc...
Secondly - I was gutted was I read it was Jann.
However, I don't see what he has done wrong? I don't think anyone would be lifting/backing off in case the car took off? Its just not wired in to a racers brain.
Do any of the other pro's lift in advance in a GT3 car - do we have any data to prove that?
Its a freak accident, from a drivers perspective - not sure if its such a freak accident from a car design, flat bottomed cars etc...
the wind was picking up that day in the afternoon (not sure what time the crash was) looking at the weather records, gusts to 30mph, they were in a sw direction so presumably a gust could have taken around 25mph of downforce off the car (assuming that is how these things work). So from one lap to another presumably the car could have reacted very differently
the wind was picking up that day in the afternoon (not sure what time the crash was) looking at the weather records, gusts to 30mph, they were in a sw direction so presumably a gust could have taken around 25mph of downforce off the car (assuming that is how these things work). So from one lap to another presumably the car could have reacted very differently
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