Road cars faster than race cars. Is this wrong?
Discussion
corozin said:
To put the differential into perspective, the Bell/Stuck 962 back in 1986 was pounding around Le Mans in around 3m24s whilst the current cars, on a track which now has the Dunlop Esses, and two chicanes on the Mulsanne, were comfortably under 3m20s and qualified under 3m17s.
Amazing though Mr Koenigsegg's creation is, I doubt that it would be any faster than a GTE Pro car at La Sarthe. Road cars just don't have the low weight, downforce or tyres to make up the difference
John,Amazing though Mr Koenigsegg's creation is, I doubt that it would be any faster than a GTE Pro car at La Sarthe. Road cars just don't have the low weight, downforce or tyres to make up the difference
I'm no afficianado on GT cars so I hope LM GTE is the same class as your quoted GTE Pro cars.
Re your weight quote previously.
LM GTE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LM_GTE
Zonda R nearly 200kg less.
The later versions of the R had further improved power and aero.
If I have your race car classification correct then surely those 200kg have 'some' positive effect.
Put the same race tyres and the same gearing and similarly experienced drivers.
Are we getting in any way close?
Forget Koenigsegg, we're not talking about cars that don't go round corners too well!
Phil
heebeegeetee said:
coppice said:
Exactly - and neither the squillion quid P1 nor 918 (or the daft Ferrari with the silly name ) would see which way an F3 car went either.
And if they compared a hypercar with a top race car - an F1 car, for instance, the result would be even more embarrassing. Coppice,
I worked at H R Owen back in the days of the Tuscan and early 360's.
After an incident on the Westway in the wet in a Diablo driven by one of the company's drivers you'd have your toy delivered by trailer also.
In fact after that incident it became company policy that only the Lamborghini tech could driver customer cars. All would be collected and delivered by an enclosed trailer.
Phil
I worked at H R Owen back in the days of the Tuscan and early 360's.
After an incident on the Westway in the wet in a Diablo driven by one of the company's drivers you'd have your toy delivered by trailer also.
In fact after that incident it became company policy that only the Lamborghini tech could driver customer cars. All would be collected and delivered by an enclosed trailer.
Phil
coppice said:
It would be but I don't think it's the best example as F1 cars are so bloody expensive. Stick with the sort of racer many people could afford instead of an Elise or a Caterham and the sort of speed you can buy for that is staggering value compared to a P1 budget . You can't drive a Dallara to the shops of course but when I read the tests of some oligarch's plaything I do smile when I read that the daft thing was delivered in a bloody trailer!
Too right...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq_WbFBwBrE
Transmitter Man said:
John,
I'm no afficianado on GT cars so I hope LM GTE is the same class as your quoted GTE Pro cars.
Re your weight quote previously.
LM GTE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LM_GTE
Zonda R nearly 200kg less.
The later versions of the R had further improved power and aero.
If I have your race car classification correct then surely those 200kg have 'some' positive effect.
Put the same race tyres and the same gearing and similarly experienced drivers.
Are we getting in any way close?
Forget Koenigsegg, we're not talking about cars that don't go round corners too well!
Phil
Zonda R is not a road car for starters, quite apart from it would struggle to come last in gte class.I'm no afficianado on GT cars so I hope LM GTE is the same class as your quoted GTE Pro cars.
Re your weight quote previously.
LM GTE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LM_GTE
Zonda R nearly 200kg less.
The later versions of the R had further improved power and aero.
If I have your race car classification correct then surely those 200kg have 'some' positive effect.
Put the same race tyres and the same gearing and similarly experienced drivers.
Are we getting in any way close?
Forget Koenigsegg, we're not talking about cars that don't go round corners too well!
Phil
Transmitter Man said:
Coppice,
I worked at H R Owen back in the days of the Tuscan and early 360's.
After an incident on the Westway in the wet in a Diablo driven by one of the company's drivers you'd have your toy delivered by trailer also.
In fact after that incident it became company policy that only the Lamborghini tech could driver customer cars. All would be collected and delivered by an enclosed trailer.
Phil
I worked at H R Owen back in the days of the Tuscan and early 360's.
After an incident on the Westway in the wet in a Diablo driven by one of the company's drivers you'd have your toy delivered by trailer also.
In fact after that incident it became company policy that only the Lamborghini tech could driver customer cars. All would be collected and delivered by an enclosed trailer.
Phil
I don't think that would happen with the current generation of supercars with so much electronic safety netting but I fully understand why the Diablo crashed; once watched a race for Diablos at Donington in the wet . Granted, the drivers were mainly fat European bankers and Eurotrash but the attrition rate was high was the daft things would keep lumbering off into the scenery.
The point I was making is that there is a massive irony in things like 918s being delivered in a trailer; here's a car developed and tested in heat and cold , snow and desert but some poor sod in a Transit van up from Porsche(or whoever- Pagani and the rest ) to Blyton or wherever so some hack from Evo can recycle the same old cliches - 'razor sharp turn in' , 'roll on acceleration (wtf), rifle bolt gear shift and 'spinning up the wheels' (Up?? )
The problem with the stuff like the Pagani R (Ferrari FXX ) is that it affects race car attitude without actually lowering itself to race against anything except itself . The last..ahem..hypercar actually to walk the walk as opposed to exhaling vast amounts of hot air was the McLaren F1 of course. Veyron got kids up to 11 excited but if anybody had been daft enough to take part in a race in one I suspect its humiliation would have been enormous .
exactly, and can we please not forget it's still got nowhere near Bellof's ring time of 30+ years ago (with only some ~630Hp on tap).
since then, tyres have moved on massively, as have engines and engine management, chassis design, aero, etc etc.. the list is endless.
(if you ever get the chance to drive a 956 or 962, the turbo lag is eppic, to the point you have to hit the accelerator on the way into corners (sometimes whilst your still braking), so that the turbo's spooled up for the exit.)
since then, tyres have moved on massively, as have engines and engine management, chassis design, aero, etc etc.. the list is endless.
(if you ever get the chance to drive a 956 or 962, the turbo lag is eppic, to the point you have to hit the accelerator on the way into corners (sometimes whilst your still braking), so that the turbo's spooled up for the exit.)
coppice said:
The problem with the stuff like the Pagani R (Ferrari FXX ) is that it affects race car attitude without actually lowering itself to race against anything except itself . The last..ahem..hypercar actually to walk the walk as opposed to exhaling vast amounts of hot air was the McLaren F1 of course. Veyron got kids up to 11 excited but if anybody had been daft enough to take part in a race in one I suspect its humiliation would have been enormous .
OK, I am genuinely interested in learning something here because the only track I've raced on is a kart track and that was against company colleagues!What aspects of the F1 are we talking about exactly?
Phil
Scuffers said:
exactly, and can we please not forget it's still got nowhere near Bellof's ring time of 30+ years ago (with only some ~630Hp on tap).
since then, tyres have moved on massively, as have engines and engine management, chassis design, aero, etc etc.. the list is endless.
(if you ever get the chance to drive a 956 or 962, the turbo lag is eppic, to the point you have to hit the accelerator on the way into corners (sometimes whilst your still braking), so that the turbo's spooled up for the exit.)
Simon,since then, tyres have moved on massively, as have engines and engine management, chassis design, aero, etc etc.. the list is endless.
(if you ever get the chance to drive a 956 or 962, the turbo lag is eppic, to the point you have to hit the accelerator on the way into corners (sometimes whilst your still braking), so that the turbo's spooled up for the exit.)
Can you come back to me on my weight comment above.
Did I get the car class correct or are we talking about something completely different.
Also, let's change the Zonda R for the 760RS, which as described is basically an R, without the slicks but with a tax disc.
Phil
Transmitter Man said:
Simon,
Can you come back to me on my weight comment above.
Did I get the car class correct or are we talking about something completely different.
Also, let's change the Zonda R for the 760RS, which as described is basically an R, without the slicks but with a tax disc.
Phil
If it has not added any weight getting road legal, its still what? 1,100kgs.Can you come back to me on my weight comment above.
Did I get the car class correct or are we talking about something completely different.
Also, let's change the Zonda R for the 760RS, which as described is basically an R, without the slicks but with a tax disc.
Phil
As for how fast, until somebody puts one on a real track with some times who knows?
If we are talking lap time then if you go from the top gear lap times where they have put a f1 car around a aston gt3 car around and a zonda r.
F1 car 59s
aston 1.08
zonda 1.08
So the zonda is equal to a really dated gt car of about 6-8 years old considering the new gt cars are quicker than that the statement that it would finish last is correct.
Race cars and road cars do not compete and can never will
F1 car 59s
aston 1.08
zonda 1.08
So the zonda is equal to a really dated gt car of about 6-8 years old considering the new gt cars are quicker than that the statement that it would finish last is correct.
Race cars and road cars do not compete and can never will
MG CHRIS said:
If we are talking lap time then if you go from the top gear lap times where they have put a f1 car around a aston gt3 car around and a zonda r.
F1 car 59s
aston 1.08
zonda 1.08
So the zonda is equal to a really dated gt car of about 6-8 years old considering the new gt cars are quicker than that the statement that it would finish last is correct.
Race cars and road cars do not compete and can never will
Please don't equate top gear times to reality.F1 car 59s
aston 1.08
zonda 1.08
So the zonda is equal to a really dated gt car of about 6-8 years old considering the new gt cars are quicker than that the statement that it would finish last is correct.
Race cars and road cars do not compete and can never will
Transmitter Man said:
OK, I am genuinely interested in learning something here because the only track I've raced on is a kart track and that was against company colleagues!
What aspects of the F1 are we talking about exactly?
Phil
Not too sure what you need but here goes;although designed as a road car the F1 had many characteristics of a racing car , as was proved when it won Le Mans and did so well in GT racing . This wasn't surprising really as its designer, Gordon Murray, had designed racing cars since he was a teenager and obviously had worked for McLaren , and Brabham before , in designing Grand Prix winning machinery . Critically , Colin Chapman was his inspiration and his 'add lightness' mantra informed everything Murray did , including the F1 , which weighed about 1150kg(600kg less than a Veyron ) which was critical to its success. Add in one of the best normally aspirated engines ever made and you had a winner.What aspects of the F1 are we talking about exactly?
Phil
But to see for yourself the point I am trying to make go to a hill climb and watch how yawningly slow (and crappy sounding ) something like a F458 or 911 is compared to a custom built single seater. There is no comparison- where the F458 will struggle to hit 90 a Gould hillclimb car will be pulling 145 plus- even a little Jedi (tiny single seater with a bike engine) will utterly humiliate the Ferrari in a straight line and round corners ....well... the prancing horse will look a bit of nag !
The problem with this is that one rarely sees road cars and race cars competing together. Thus the difference in speed, especially in the corners, is difficult to see/believe.
Road cars look and sound fast when being booted through a tunnel near Heathrow on YouTube. They also look quick when competing against their peers on a road car track day.
Here's a good example for you. On my very first race, a complete novice with only a few track days and tests under my belt, I was lapping Anglesey a second quicker than Jason Plato was managing in a Mercedes C63 AMG Black.
My car: an 18 year old well used 1800cc n/a BMW Compact on Toyo 888s. It was putting out 150bhp. Open diff. Mildly tweeked suspension, decent race brakes and pads. It had a quarter of the power of the Merc. A quarter.
This wasn't a one off lap either, I did it consistently for two 1.5 hour stints. I wasn't even the fastest in the car out of my team mates.
There is zero comparison between road and race cars even taking the driver into account.
Road cars look and sound fast when being booted through a tunnel near Heathrow on YouTube. They also look quick when competing against their peers on a road car track day.
Here's a good example for you. On my very first race, a complete novice with only a few track days and tests under my belt, I was lapping Anglesey a second quicker than Jason Plato was managing in a Mercedes C63 AMG Black.
My car: an 18 year old well used 1800cc n/a BMW Compact on Toyo 888s. It was putting out 150bhp. Open diff. Mildly tweeked suspension, decent race brakes and pads. It had a quarter of the power of the Merc. A quarter.
This wasn't a one off lap either, I did it consistently for two 1.5 hour stints. I wasn't even the fastest in the car out of my team mates.
There is zero comparison between road and race cars even taking the driver into account.
That's why I mentioned hill-climbs; at my local , Harewood ,the speed trap on the top straight is almost as revealing as the stopwatch . It's fascinating to see that a quick Seven - or a well prepped and highly modified 205- will humiliate things like F430s and GTRs. Honestly, if more people actually attended or participated in live motor sport these debates would happen far less frequently - what looks quick on Top Gear or in EVO invariably looks (and sounds) very tame compared to machinery designed or at least modified for track use.
Timely
I've just entered my very first hillclimb on July 4th at Harewood.
I will be one of the mugs slogging around at the back, not least as I'll be in Cat 1F in my historic rally Porsche.
A few people I know compete in 1C in a variety of stuff - 944 S2, Fiat Coupe Turbo etc.
Class average benchmark seems to be about 71 ish secs so hope I'm not too much down on that. We'll see though, I could be awful at it!
I've just entered my very first hillclimb on July 4th at Harewood.
I will be one of the mugs slogging around at the back, not least as I'll be in Cat 1F in my historic rally Porsche.
A few people I know compete in 1C in a variety of stuff - 944 S2, Fiat Coupe Turbo etc.
Class average benchmark seems to be about 71 ish secs so hope I'm not too much down on that. We'll see though, I could be awful at it!
benjj said:
The problem with this is that one rarely sees road cars and race cars competing together. Thus the difference in speed, especially in the corners, is difficult to see/believe.
Road cars look and sound fast when being booted through a tunnel near Heathrow on YouTube. They also look quick when competing against their peers on a road car track day.
Here's a good example for you. On my very first race, a complete novice with only a few track days and tests under my belt, I was lapping Anglesey a second quicker than Jason Plato was managing in a Mercedes C63 AMG Black.
My car: an 18 year old well used 1800cc n/a BMW Compact on Toyo 888s. It was putting out 150bhp. Open diff. Mildly tweeked suspension, decent race brakes and pads. It had a quarter of the power of the Merc. A quarter.
This wasn't a one off lap either, I did it consistently for two 1.5 hour stints. I wasn't even the fastest in the car out of my team mates.
There is zero comparison between road and race cars even taking the driver into account.
There really isn't any comparison.Road cars look and sound fast when being booted through a tunnel near Heathrow on YouTube. They also look quick when competing against their peers on a road car track day.
Here's a good example for you. On my very first race, a complete novice with only a few track days and tests under my belt, I was lapping Anglesey a second quicker than Jason Plato was managing in a Mercedes C63 AMG Black.
My car: an 18 year old well used 1800cc n/a BMW Compact on Toyo 888s. It was putting out 150bhp. Open diff. Mildly tweeked suspension, decent race brakes and pads. It had a quarter of the power of the Merc. A quarter.
This wasn't a one off lap either, I did it consistently for two 1.5 hour stints. I wasn't even the fastest in the car out of my team mates.
There is zero comparison between road and race cars even taking the driver into account.
Case in point this last endurance race at Le Mans it was quite an eye opener(particularly from the onboard footage) how much faster the LMP1 cars were than the race prepared 458's, Aston's, 911's and Corvettes in the "production car" GTE class. The LMP1's were flying past 911 GT3s and 458's being driven flat out as if they were standing still.
Fastest qualifying lap time from stripped out, big winged, slick tyred, production car(likely very much faster than it's on the road cousin): 3m54.9s
Fastest qualifying lap time for purpose built racing car (Porsche 919): 3m16.9s
28 seconds per lap faster...
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