NISSAN LMP1...were they right?

[freedman]

entropy said:

Nissan deserves a bit of credit of doing something different when motorsport has become stale and fits into a box eg. wings, grouds effect and ever tightening rules.

I've been impressed by DW. It can run with P2 cars without fixed wings. The problem its so unique that it doesn't fit into a box ie. is it a P2 car, P1? have its own class?

Do you think Porsche or Audi could build something half the weight of the current cars with a technical twist and be fast?

Of course they could, but they actually want to win by building the best cars they can within the confines of the known regulations

[Scuffers]

freedman said:

entropy said:

Nissan deserves a bit of credit of doing something different when motorsport has become stale and fits into a box eg. wings, grouds effect and ever tightening rules.

I've been impressed by DW. It can run with P2 cars without fixed wings. The problem its so unique that it doesn't fit into a box ie. is it a P2 car, P1? have its own class?

Do you think Porsche or Audi could build something half the weight of the current cars with a technical twist and be fast?

Of course they could, but they actually want to win by building the best cars they can within the confines of the known regulations

this ^^^^^

the classes are well defined and supported, going off and doing your own thing is being chicken.

[Quartz Ninja]

entropy said:

Nissan deserves a bit of credit of doing something different when motorsport has become stale and fits into a box eg. wings, grouds effect and ever tightening rules.

I've been impressed by DW. It can run with P2 cars without fixed wings. The problem its so unique that it doesn't fit into a box ie. is it a P2 car, P1? have its own class?

I agree that, in general, regulations in motorsport are too restrictive and designers have no real freedom to explore ideas. It’d certainly be nice if they brought back Cam-Am where the regulations were just 2 seats, enclosed wheels and compliance with safety standards and that’s it!

I guess, in a sense, the ‘Garage 56’ is the closest thing to it today. (Maybe the unlimited class of Pikes Peak would allow almost anything, but it’s too much of a niche event (IMHO) to have a manufacturer to throw serious resources behind it. I guess the added caveat that Garage 56 has, is that the car produced must have some (perceived) eco-friendliness to it (fuel-efficiency, hybrid tech, purely electric etc).

However, if all Garage 56 can inspire is the DeltaWing (and ZEOD)… then count me worried! I’ve not been impressed with the DW, as it’s been around a few seasons and (I think) it’s best result has been a 5th place(?). They seem to keep changing its class, but it’s got nowhere near a race victory. Unless there’s a major rule fudge to its favour, I can’t see it competing because of its extremely narrow front-track which goes against all common-sense in designing something that’s required to go through corners (especially esses) quickly…

I do find it bizarre that the LM GTR has generated goodwill in places; if Nissan decided to make the next road-going GT-R a predominately front-wheel drive car (with 4WD only kicking in via KERS) I could imagine the vast majority of petrol-heads exploding with rage!

I think I’d have more respect if Nissan just attempted something very difficult. Why not build an all-electric prototype, with some kind of battery unit that can be taken out/swapped with a new one pretty quickly? If that could last 24 hours at a good pace, I’d be impressed.

[Scuffers]

Quartz Ninja said:

If Nissan decided to make the next road-going GT-R a predominately front-wheel drive car (with 4WD only kicking in via KERS) I could imagine the vast majority of petrol-heads exploding with rage!

If they are stupid enough to try this, their reward will be zero sales.

You cannot marketer your way out of a stupid design.

No serious sports/performance car is fwd biased.

[Mutley]

Scuffers said:

No serious sports/performance car is fwd biased.

They said similar when the cars went mid-engined. It takes lateral thinking to try something new.

Personally, I believe the Nissan GTR-LM can work, and while the design/test process in public goes against the grain (and an incorrect process IMO) they were never going to be on the pace this year. They have stepped too far early on, but that doesn't it's a concept that cannot work, or work well. When they get the 4wd working properly, and have the extra power out of the corners, I can see it being a challenger in time.

Different does not mean Wrong

[Scuffers]

Mutley said:

Scuffers said:

No serious sports/performance car is fwd biased.

They said similar when the cars went mid-engined. It takes lateral thinking to try something new.

Personally, I believe the Nissan GTR-LM can work, and while the design/test process in public goes against the grain (and an incorrect process IMO) they were never going to be on the pace this year. They have stepped too far early on, but that doesn't it's a concept that cannot work, or work well. When they get the 4wd working properly, and have the extra power out of the corners, I can see it being a challenger in time.

Different does not mean Wrong

who exactly said that and when?

first mid-engined F1 car was the Cooper T51



nobody laughed at it when Jack Brabham took the championship with it.

[MissChief]

Scuffers said:

who exactly said that and when?

first mid-engined F1 car was the Cooper T51



nobody laughed at it when Jack Brabham took the championship with it.

But everybody did when it first came out?

[Scuffers]

MissChief said:

But everybody did when it first came out?

1959, Monaco - First GP of the year, Qualified 1st & 2nd (Moss/Brabham), won the race (Brabham)

from wiki:

Wiki said:

The T51 had already won the Glover Trophy at Goodwood and the Silverstone International Trophy before it made its first World Championship appearance in the 1959 Monaco Grand Prix, with no less than eight examples entered.

[RobGT81]

Mutley said:

They said similar when the cars went mid-engined. It takes lateral thinking to try something new.

Nissan haven't gone about it with lateral thinking or clever engineering though. The brief was "don't build me an Audi or a P1 copy" Bold but they haven't put the thought, resources and development into coming up with a better solution. Immediately they are on the back foot because they can't use the best solution to the current regulations so they tried to PR their way out of it.

[Mutley]

RobGT81 said:

Mutley said:

They said similar when the cars went mid-engined. It takes lateral thinking to try something new.

Nissan haven't gone about it with lateral thinking or clever engineering though. The brief was "don't build me an Audi or a P1 copy" Bold but they haven't put the thought, resources and development into coming up with a better solution. Immediately they are on the back foot because they can't use the best solution to the current regulations so they tried to PR their way out of it.

So don't build an Audi copy. how would you build from scratch then? and not copy the current cars?

Perhaps they have tried to "PR their way", but perhaps, and it's a radical thought, what they say is actually true!

[350Matt]

Still too early to say, the car has barely been tested , setup properly or every been running with the hyrbid power it was designed for

hopefully Nissan won't lose their bottle and cease to race it again this year

not denying that they've some serious work to do though to get a new hybrid system in place

[SAGTAFF]

Well they certainly provided entertainment - stood at Arnarge you could see just how out of balance and under powered the cars were.

Going into the corner they were locking up, wheels lifting, missing the apex (by yards) and then accelerating out they were holding up the GT cars - they were that slow. Hats off to the drivers for lasting as long as they did as the cars seemed a nightmare to drive.

Nissan were marketing the innovation but innovation is only good if things move forward.

The cars looked a long long way off being competitive that you cannot see how they will bridge the gap. Standing at Arnarge, the concept just looked seriously flawed - we were laughing at them they were that bad. My money is on the project being canned after a few more races.

[MissChief]

Considering the limitations they had to run with, being 300+HP down on the other cars in their class I thought they did ok. Also considering that, they were only 7kph down on top speed on Mulsanne, if they can get the Hybrid working properly and get the rear drive working they can and could be very fast. I agree though, a year too early.

[Scuffers]

MissChief said:

Considering the limitations they had to run with, being 300+HP down on the other cars in their class I thought they did ok

that's a massive over-simplification of losing the hybrid component.

300Hp does not come from nowhere...

[DMN]

I found Nissans PR campaign very annoying. Often I've wished they'd spent that much time and effort on the car, that way it might have been a bit faster...

However I do believe that if they get the Hybrid working, then we will see that the concept works. Right now their two main problems are speed exiting corners and braking power. The Hybrid will give them temp 4x4 power to get out of the corners, and the kers system will also make the brakes more efficient. Untill it happens we won't see if it will make them winners, but it should improve their performance.

[PeXy]

Scuffers said:

MissChief said:

Considering the limitations they had to run with, being 300+HP down on the other cars in their class I thought they did ok

that's a massive over-simplification of losing the hybrid component.

300Hp does not come from nowhere...

I read quotes of the car having 1200hp and being FWD, so does that mean it was 900 hp which is still a lot! read a leaflet at Le mans from Porche saying there four cylinder is 500hp and mg-u and mg-k another 400hp...

refernce of 1250hp
http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/the-nissan-gt-r-lm-n...

this one waffles on about the potential for 1600hp

http://nissanlmp1.com/tech-spec/tech-innovation/

[Scuffers]

More marketing waffle...

Reading that, are they running to 2mj or 8mj regs?

And 1,100hp from 8mj ?

If that were true, that's for a whopping 9.6 seconds.

[Ahonen]

PeXy said:

read a leaflet at Le mans from Porche saying there four cylinder is 500hp and mg-u and mg-k another 400hp...

There's some fairly convincing evidence that the Porsche has around 1350bhp with full electrical power. Only for short periods, of course, but that's pretty stunning. And the person who told me should certainly know, let's say.

[Scuffers]

the 500Hp is the limit of fuel flow (much like F1, actual figure depends on what level of hybrid they are running).

Yes, I am sure the theoretical power of the hybrid can be huge, however, in actual racing conditions, it's unlikely.

[MissChief]

The 8MJ class is really limited by how much energy they can generate and on some tracks they can't regenerate all the energy they can output in one lap. That's why the Porsches were so fast in qualifying but the Audi's were able to match them in the race.