The 2016 Rallying thread (WRC, ERC, RX, etc)

[rb5er]

DelicaL400 said:

rb5er said:

Rallying used to be quite popular when cars were made with homogolation for motorsport.

Now its just a space frame chassis with a hatchback body stuck on top.

Did you type this post in 1985?!

Have a trip to M-Sport and see how they build a Fiesta WRC

The point I'm making is that the cars are now nothing like what is offered by a manufacturer and having not even the same basic awd layout in a road version makes the cars far removed from eachother.

I may indeed be wrong about rally cars using space frame chassis but they are modified so much that they are totally different to the original chassis.

Rally cars are just too different from the road cars these days. Not true of the rwd rally cars and other cars i mentioned earlier. Its killed the sport imo.

[velocemitch]

V

rb5er said:

DelicaL400 said:

rb5er said:

Rallying used to be quite popular when cars were made with homogolation for motorsport.

Now its just a space frame chassis with a hatchback body stuck on top.

Did you type this post in 1985?!

Have a trip to M-Sport and see how they build a Fiesta WRC

The point I'm making is that the cars are now nothing like what is offered by a manufacturer and having not even the same basic awd layout in a road version makes the cars far removed from eachother.

I may indeed be wrong about rally cars using space frame chassis but they are modified so much that they are totally different to the original chassis.

Rally cars are just too different from the road cars these days. Not true of the rwd rally cars and other cars i mentioned earlier. Its killed the sport imo.

But it's not all about WRC, thereis ONE WRC event in the UK, hundreds of other Rallies, a great many of them still using the Cars you did mention.

[DelicaL400]

rb5er said:

Rally cars are just too different from the road cars these days. Not true of the rwd rally cars and other cars i mentioned earlier. Its killed the sport imo.

I don't remember being able to buy a 4WD mid-engined 3.0 V6 Mini Metro road car in 1985 yet rallying got huge crowds back then.

And, as already said, other than a few rich folk who can afford to run WRC/R5 cars on clubman events, rally cars do resemble the road car.

In my opinion the problem is that rallying in the UK hasn't moved with the times either in the cars used or in the promotion of the sport. In addition, the ever-increasing safety demands means that anyone looking to do some motorsport is unlikely to consider rallying due to the all the money you have to pay out before you've even turned a wheel. This affects those already competing too - lifed seats, perfectly good helmets having to be binned, compulsory HANS etc etc.

The new safety requirements for spectators aren't going to help matters either.

[Slippydiff]

Alex Langheck said:

I'd recommend the Absolute Rally podcast interview with Mark James - and his views on the WRC and it's promotion/ or lack of it. Good listening.

An excellent find there Alex. I've been listening to the podcast over the past couple of evenings. Mark James views on the sport mirror what you, I (and several others on here) have thought over the past 10 years or so, that being the Loeb years did the sport no favours, the events are too sanitized (as are most of the characters in it), the 2 and half day format isn't what the sport is about, but more worryingly the promoters have lost their way and the coverage is poor/uninspiring.

I think Mark James assertion that it'll take 3-5 years to turn things around, is probably spot on, but only if the promoters and the FIA make changes NOW, and I don't see that happening if I'm honest.

I genuinely think rallying has seen its glory days, think back to the days of the British Rally Championship when we had the likes of Brookes, Mcrae, Mikkola, Pond, Blomqvist, Vatenen, Toivenen etc competing, I don't see that ever happening again. I serviced for one of the backmarkers on the 1986 Circuit of Ireland, the competitive stage mileage alone was 600 miles back then.

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with the cars themselves, anyone that's witnessed a modern WRC stage side (rather than on TV or a PC) can't help but be impressed with the speed and the sheer level of commitment the top drivers display, yet somehow the coverage manages to make the cars look pedestrian. But as Mark James so perfectly summed up, the modern coverage fails to tell "the story" of the event, the WRC needs to find a modern day Barry Hinchcliffe.

For those that really find the current crop of WRC cars dull, the 2017 cars should address the issue. But I'm not convinced the cars need to be any quicker, as I've said, watched stage side the current cars aren't slow, on the contrary, they're hugely quick, such is the way every aspect of a modern WRC car is optimized, they make footage of the early WRC cars look painfully slow.

I'm doubtful the 2017 cars will appear any quicker on TV, as the cameramen seem to have mastered the art of making the cars look positively slow on most events (except 1000 Lakes perhaps), but when a spectator shoots stuff like this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embed...

one wonders how the cameramen, directors, producers mange to make such a spectacular sport look boring ?

On the face of it the sport appears healthier than ever (if the amount of manufacturers involved were a marker) in reality it needs a massive revamp if all the manufacturers are to stay in the sport long term.

[rb5er]

DelicaL400 said:

I don't remember being able to buy a 4WD mid-engined 3.0 V6 Mini Metro road car in 1985 yet rallying got huge crowds back then.

But what other cars were rallying at the same time? 1 outrageous car like that and several manufacturers with similar cars that could be bought in showrooms.

[rb5er]

velocemitch said:

But it's not all about WRC, thereis ONE WRC event in the UK, hundreds of other Rallies, a great many of them still using the Cars you did mention.

Unfortunately it is all about WRC, just like it is all about F1. People don`t tend to go in for the lower leagues so much.

Rally America is getting quite popular though.

Maybe its just me and everyone I know from my age-group with an enthusiasm for cars and motorsport, (I`m 34) but we all have a love for all the rally cars of the 80`s and 90`s era that were indeed available at main dealerships. Nobody that I personally know watches rally anymore and certainly nobody is looking to buy a fwd polo or fiesta due to something looking like them in WRC. I have a brother of 24 and one at the age of 16 and they all love the same era of rally cars. They are not the Group B monsters which were awesome but the later WRC cars, the closest things to rally cars for the road.

This is obviously not the only reason for WRC decline but I think it is a big one.

[velocemitch]

rb5er said:

DelicaL400 said:

I don't remember being able to buy a 4WD mid-engined 3.0 V6 Mini Metro road car in 1985 yet rallying got huge crowds back then.

But what other cars were rallying at the same time?

Escorts mainly, in the UK anyway.
Do you know what is probably the most commonly seen Rally Car on British Rallies these days...... It's probably still an escort.

It's not about the Cars really, it's about the format and a host of other issues, but largely public indifference and, I don't mean this in the derogatory sense, but ignorance of what it's about, probably brought on by the perception that outside of WRC nothing is going on.

Thought the interview with Craig Thorley at the end of that Podcast was very good, now there's a bloke who's still grounded. An FIA world champion whose not too up himself to still be involved at club level. He was out training his young grandson on 12 cars.

[rb5er]

velocemitch said:

Escorts mainly, in the UK anyway.
Do you know what is probably the most commonly seen Rally Car on British Rallies these days...... It's probably still an escort.

It's not about the Cars really, it's about the format and a host of other issues, but largely public indifference and, I don't mean this in the derogatory sense, but ignorance of what it's about, probably brought on by the perception that outside of WRC nothing is going on.

Exactly, a very popular car where Ford made special versions to celebrate rallying.

I agree its also the fact that nobody really knows about other rally events, its not often televised or advertised and its all usually in a very cold place miles away from anywhere to actually go and view the spectacle. I do believe the cars are a big factor in WRC demise though.

[Alex Langheck]

This is a generalisation, but the sport is poor at promoting itself. The sport is invisible in the UK, we have a WRC round, yet would you know it? Not unless you follow the sport. Is there the will to change this?

[DelicaL400]

rb5er said:

DelicaL400 said:

I don't remember being able to buy a 4WD mid-engined 3.0 V6 Mini Metro road car in 1985 yet rallying got huge crowds back then.

But what other cars were rallying at the same time? 1 outrageous car like that and several manufacturers with similar cars that could be bought in showrooms.

At world level? Pug 205 T16, Ford RS200, Audi quattro sport, Citroen BX 4TC, Lancia Delta S4 etc. None of which you could buy in a showroom. The only "manufacturer" entry from 1985 I can think of that sort of resembled the road car in looks/configuration was the Manta 400. The Group A era saw more normal looking cars but were spectator numbers higher than Group B times? Not in my experience.

[Blayney]

Slippydiff said:

I'm doubtful the 2017 cars will appear any quicker on TV, as the cameramen seem to have mastered the art of making the cars look positively slow on most events (except 1000 Lakes perhaps), but when a spectator shoots stuff like this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embed...

one wonders how the cameramen, directors, producers mange to make such a spectacular sport look boring ?

Couldn't see the sponsors though, could you?...


I haven't been out on a stage for months, I'll have to look to see what's coming up. Break the video camera out and do some more videos. I did something like 5 rallies by the end of march last year and then only 2 for the rest of the year...

[aeropilot]

velocemitch said:

It's not about the Cars really, it's about the format and a host of other issues, but largely public indifference and, I don't mean this in the derogatory sense, but ignorance of what it's about

This.....in spades.

People bang on about Group B being the best, but it was the Group B cars that killed proper rallying. Rallying died at the end of the 1986 season with the introduction of 'office hours' rallying....it's never really been the same since. The FiA didn't need to kill the traditional format of a rally, just kill the silly Group B cars being used, but instead they killed the sport.

[ArnageWRC]

To be fair, after the banning of GroupB, we still had what I'd call 'proper events' - even up until the mid/ late 90's. It was only after then we got the 'cloverleaf' format and the modern 9-5 events. And from 2000 all events ran from Thursday- Sunday; meaning the ending of midweek WRC events, and the Sunday - Weds RAC format.

But I take your point - WRC rallies are no longer EVENTS. 10-14 identikit rallies over 2.5 days and that's it. If you're a kid in Newcastle, York, Kent, etc you've no chance of seeing the top WRC stars in our country - and it's a hell of a trek to get to North Wales. A casual motorsport fan just won't bother.

The sport needs more & better promotion - but it also needs to reach out to more people; which at the moment it seems incapable of doing.

[aeropilot]

ArnageWRC said:

To be fair, after the banning of GroupB, we still had what I'd call 'proper events' - even up until the mid/ late 90's. It was only after then we got the 'cloverleaf' format and the modern 9-5 events. And from 2000 all events ran from Thursday- Sunday; meaning the ending of midweek WRC events, and the Sunday - Weds RAC format.

I'll have to disagree with that.
I was service crew on the RAC Rally in 84, 85 and 86. They were proper rallies, and the subsequent RAC's I was service crew on in 87,88,90 & 92 were very tame in comparison to the pre-86 days.
Granted they were better than as you say, the super-sprint style post-2000 incarnation which is frankly, just pathetic.

[ArnageWRC]

I think the FiA (or was it FISA, at the time) had to be seen to be doing something, and drastic. So the Gp B cars were banned - and the events themselves were 'tamed'. There had been stories of crews taking 'tablets' to keep them awake. So the long hours, with very little rest time, were gone; which I don't really have too much of a problem with.
However, we've gone to the other extreme; short days with massive gaps in the middle of the day when nothing happens.

[aeropilot]

ArnageWRC said:

So the long hours, with very little rest time, were gone; which I don't really have too much of a problem with.

That's what rallying was all about though......I don't know anyone of us that competed back in those days that preferred the newer office hours format, and many I know eventually left the sport as a result.

Rallying was as much about pacing yourself against your competitors and the conditions and knowing when you could attack and when to hold back as with 70+ stages, it was like a big chess game with cars.



Happy days......that will never return.

[Alex Langheck]

Thank goodness we have the WEC; I can imagine the WRC would have turned Le Mans into a 4 hour race, and on the Bugatti circuit. There is a market for Endurance in motorsport - a shame the WRC has turned it's back on it.

[velocemitch]

aeropilot said:

ArnageWRC said:

So the long hours, with very little rest time, were gone; which I don't really have too much of a problem with.

That's what rallying was all about though......I don't know anyone of us that competed back in those days that preferred the newer office hours format, and many I know eventually left the sport as a result.

Rallying was as much about pacing yourself against your competitors and the conditions and knowing when you could attack and when to hold back as with 70+ stages, it was like a big chess game with cars.



Happy days......that will never return.

I think this one of the key issues, rallying as it was took a lot of effort, for all concerned, the crews and teams, obviously, the Press and the spectators. This is incomparable with today's instant gratification requirements.

I don't know if there is an answer, but I do keep coming back to the point that WRC is absolutely not the be and end all of rallying, yet people seem blind to this and won't look past it.

Tell the 60 odd crews that drove old cars from lands end to john o groats last month that endurance is dead in rallying. They will give you a very different opinion.

[Alex Langheck]

Yes, 'Classic car' rallying seems to be doing extremely well. I see the Rally of the Tests has now got backing from the RAC - and will run in November as the RAC Rally of the Tests; the precursor to what became the stage event known as the RAC Rally.

[velocemitch]

Alex Langheck said:

Yes, 'Classic car' rallying seems to be doing extremely well. I see the Rally of the Tests has now got backing from the RAC - and will run in November as the RAC Rally of the Tests; the precursor to what became the stage event known as the RAC Rally.

Indeed, though I expect it will really confuse people as their will be three events that some think of as the RAC, The above mentioned Rally of the Tests (Bournemouth to Chester for 2016) the Roger Albert (if it returns) and WRGB, which many still think of as the RAC. Four if you count the 1000 mile trial which ran with RAC sponsorship too!.

I think it's brilliant that HERO have got the RAC on board, but it won't half confuse the public.

The various formats of Historic Road Rallying ( and Targa for that matter) seem to be the one area where Rallying is getting more and more popular. They are doing something right that's for sure.