Discussion
Just the seen the highlights on Eurosport.
I know that to finish first you first have to finish but my god you wouldn't wish that on your worst enemy. Those poor, poor buggers at Toyota. Like a lot of people on this board I suspect, I have the pleasure of knowing a mechanic who has worked at Le Mans and he was fortunate to have worked on a winning car. This was some time ago but even then the effort over the months leading up to the event and during it, damn near killed him.
His car won the race, so there was a massive reward. But to have it taken away from you like that, right in front of finish line, Jesus. I cannot even begin to imagine the pain.
Well done to Porsche and Ford but my heart goes out to the Toyota guys.
I know that to finish first you first have to finish but my god you wouldn't wish that on your worst enemy. Those poor, poor buggers at Toyota. Like a lot of people on this board I suspect, I have the pleasure of knowing a mechanic who has worked at Le Mans and he was fortunate to have worked on a winning car. This was some time ago but even then the effort over the months leading up to the event and during it, damn near killed him.
His car won the race, so there was a massive reward. But to have it taken away from you like that, right in front of finish line, Jesus. I cannot even begin to imagine the pain.
Well done to Porsche and Ford but my heart goes out to the Toyota guys.
p1stonhead said:
Toyota 5 not even classified because they didn't do the cool down lap! 
That is the definition of bulls
t.
Nothing to do with a cool down lapThat is the definition of bulls
t. Edited by p1stonhead on Sunday 19th June 14:26
Your final racing lap(to take the flag) has to be completed in under 6 minutes. The Toyota took almost 12
giveitfish said:
What does everyone think of Chip Ganassi protesting against the Risi Ferrari for ignoring the bogus call to fix position lights in the last 15 mins of the race?
ACO have given Risi a 50 sec penalty - but also found a 50 sec penalty down the back of the sofa to give Ford for a yellow flag infringement.
Result unchanged but sours my view of Ford especially taken alongside blatant sandbagging and the fact they needed an exemption to enter in the first place as they've not delivered any road cars yet.
You have summed Ganassi up reallyACO have given Risi a 50 sec penalty - but also found a 50 sec penalty down the back of the sofa to give Ford for a yellow flag infringement.
Result unchanged but sours my view of Ford especially taken alongside blatant sandbagging and the fact they needed an exemption to enter in the first place as they've not delivered any road cars yet.
Edited by giveitfish on Sunday 19th June 21:08
Car isnt actually eligible to race, and on;y running after dispensation from rivals, then they find; 4 seconds a lap since the test and the ACO dont sort out BOP propery leaving Porsche, Corvette and Aston out of the running from the start
As for protesting about the leader lights, pathetic and classless doesnt do it justice
Quite how the organisers managed to miss the Ford speeding in the slow zone during the race is also worthy of comment
freedman said:
p1stonhead said:
Toyota 5 not even classified because they didn't do the cool down lap!
That is the definition of bullst.
Nothing to do with a cool down lapThat is the definition of bulls
t. Edited by p1stonhead on Sunday 19th June 14:26
Your final racing lap(to take the flag) has to be completed in under 6 minutes. The Toyota took almost 12
RichB said:
I've not revisited the full details of this call but why was it bogus?
Listening to RLM plenty of other teams had similar issues (which confer no performance advantage - they're position indicator lights for the benefit of spectators on site) for extended periods with no penalty, so to penalise Risi and lose them a podium in the last 15 mins is bang out of order.p1stonhead said:
DanielSan said:
Ford have made a mockery of the GTE rules imo with the GT. They've basically designed a prototype and put it into production.... It may just be legal by the letter of the law, but it's far from the spirit.
How far away is it from the road version which you can buy?The ACO got ntobed with Ford in this respect. I feel sorry for corvette. Could have been a great battle of US sportscars, but ford sold the ACO the dream of ford v ferari 50 years on
williamp said:
p1stonhead said:
DanielSan said:
Ford have made a mockery of the GTE rules imo with the GT. They've basically designed a prototype and put it into production.... It may just be legal by the letter of the law, but it's far from the spirit.
How far away is it from the road version which you can buy?The ACO got ntobed with Ford in this respect. I feel sorry for corvette. Could have been a great battle of US sportscars, but ford sold the ACO the dream of ford v ferari 50 years on
And you can buy them can't you? Not me but some people even on here have orders in I seem to remember.
They mentioned on RML that the other GT Manufacturers agreed to let Ford race the GT, even though there weren't any road versions available for purchase. So, they've agreed to let them race, in the spirit of Le Mans...and its come back to sting them.
However, the BoP farce is on the ACO; they must surely have known Ford weren't going to show their full hand. And still they were lenient with them.
I think its left quite a few people with a bitter taste in their mouth.
However, the BoP farce is on the ACO; they must surely have known Ford weren't going to show their full hand. And still they were lenient with them.
I think its left quite a few people with a bitter taste in their mouth.
I watched most of the highlights on Quest, and the Toyota DNF is by far and away the first thing I'll recall over Ford bagging a class win. That they've hoodwinked their way to it makes it all the more forgettable.
I've had DNF's in racing and it's by far and away the most horrible feeling I've encountered in racing. I cannot begin to comprehend how that team feel right now.
I've had DNF's in racing and it's by far and away the most horrible feeling I've encountered in racing. I cannot begin to comprehend how that team feel right now.
BaronVonVaderham said:
Not really, it makes us think they're a bunch of s.
Maybe right now it does, but in 20/30/40 yrs time the results will still say that Ford won the GTE pro class at LM2016.s.FWIW I don't have an issue with the protest, race control called them in to fix it, the team refused to come in, if the race was still running they would have been summoned before RC to explain themselves and probably given a stop and hold.
Both teams were sandbagging, both teams have built very, very quick cars, and it was an awesome race across all the classes.
Roll on 2017
ash73 said:
What did Ford do that's upsetting everyone?
Ford built a car that was at the very limit of the rules, and in one respect broke them (i.e. they haven't yet got a road going version on sale), that said all the other manufactures allowed them to race under a waiver so they really only have themselves to blame.Then, they (and Ferrari also tbf) sand bagged pretty badly at test day leading to a balance of performance break (i.e. the ACO made the car faster) against the other competitors, before somehow finding in the region of 4-5 seconds come qualifying. The ACO then brought their performance down again before the race.
Finally, Ford / Chip Ganassi racing (with about 30 mins to go) altered race control to the fact that the 2nd placed Ferrari had an incorrectly functioning number board (against race rules) which required a stop and go / stop and fix pit stop. This would have dropped the Ferrari to 3rd (or possibly worse) leading to a Ford 1-2 or even 1-2-3.
Basically Ford came in, spent a shed load of cash on a new car & subsequent marketing, rode the rules to the nth degree, and pissed of half the garages.
However, they did win, and they beat Ferrari again 50 years after the original GT40 did a similar job under not so dissimilar circumstances.
All car manufacturers enter Le Mans for promotional reasons, and given that the class performance is controlled by BoP (Balance of Performance) restrictions to equal the field, it shouldn't really matter what car is entered.
However, there's unease about how Ford have gone about "winning Le Mans" 50 years after their famous 1960's effort.
First off, this is a class win, not overall. Still a great achievement, but not on the same par as in the 60's.
They've produced a race car that will have a very limited number of road going versions, and they haven't been built yet. Should that matter? Well probably, because we've been here before in several forms of the sport where homologation specials become the excuse to have a dominant race car. Their competitors adhere to the GT "spirit" more completely. Does the class want to be filled with one off "specials" that are more akin to McLaren P1's, La Ferrari's or Porsche 918's? Maybe that's OK, but it's a step change that will probably make entering the class far more expensive and difficult.
But with BoP this shouldn't matter right? In theory yes, but BoP is a very inexact science and likely to hack more people off than satisfy them. Add to which it would appear that Ford had been rather blatantly sandbagging in the year's previous WEC rounds and Le Mans practice, one has to question how much they were respecting the purpose behind BoP.
The protest against the Risi Ferrari position lights has added to the sense of distaste, as it seems very mercenary and shows the marketing exercise for what it really is - trying to create a 1-2-3 finish rather than being satisfied with simply beating the Ferrari into second place. However, there are protests flying back and forwards between several of the teams, so perhaps they felt bounced into making the protest to protect their win. Nonetheless is has left a sour taste.
The one remaining unanswered protest, apparently made by a number of competitors is that the Fords broke a 7% rule that attempts to keep the performance of each class distinct from each other. Basically the Ford was too close to the LMP2 field in a straight line. This goes to the heart of the matter, as Endurance racing / Sports Car racing is doing rather well at the moment, arguably far better than anything single seaters can produce. However that success is predicated on large fields, relatively easy entry criteria, availability of cars and cost. If the Ford GT is heralding a new era of either homologation specials or silhouette racing cars, this may be put in jeopardy.
Finally, there is a feeling that the authorities have bent rather too far backwards in accommodating the behemoth that is Ford to be certain of their participation.
However, there's unease about how Ford have gone about "winning Le Mans" 50 years after their famous 1960's effort.
First off, this is a class win, not overall. Still a great achievement, but not on the same par as in the 60's.
They've produced a race car that will have a very limited number of road going versions, and they haven't been built yet. Should that matter? Well probably, because we've been here before in several forms of the sport where homologation specials become the excuse to have a dominant race car. Their competitors adhere to the GT "spirit" more completely. Does the class want to be filled with one off "specials" that are more akin to McLaren P1's, La Ferrari's or Porsche 918's? Maybe that's OK, but it's a step change that will probably make entering the class far more expensive and difficult.
But with BoP this shouldn't matter right? In theory yes, but BoP is a very inexact science and likely to hack more people off than satisfy them. Add to which it would appear that Ford had been rather blatantly sandbagging in the year's previous WEC rounds and Le Mans practice, one has to question how much they were respecting the purpose behind BoP.
The protest against the Risi Ferrari position lights has added to the sense of distaste, as it seems very mercenary and shows the marketing exercise for what it really is - trying to create a 1-2-3 finish rather than being satisfied with simply beating the Ferrari into second place. However, there are protests flying back and forwards between several of the teams, so perhaps they felt bounced into making the protest to protect their win. Nonetheless is has left a sour taste.
The one remaining unanswered protest, apparently made by a number of competitors is that the Fords broke a 7% rule that attempts to keep the performance of each class distinct from each other. Basically the Ford was too close to the LMP2 field in a straight line. This goes to the heart of the matter, as Endurance racing / Sports Car racing is doing rather well at the moment, arguably far better than anything single seaters can produce. However that success is predicated on large fields, relatively easy entry criteria, availability of cars and cost. If the Ford GT is heralding a new era of either homologation specials or silhouette racing cars, this may be put in jeopardy.
Finally, there is a feeling that the authorities have bent rather too far backwards in accommodating the behemoth that is Ford to be certain of their participation.
Edited by Leithen on Monday 20th June 10:50
Leithen said:
All car manufacturers enter Le Mans for promotional reasons, and given that the class performance is controlled by BoP (Balance of Performance) restrictions to equal the field, it shouldn't really matter what car is entered.
However, there's unease about how Ford have gone about "winning Le Mans" 50 years after their famous 1960's effort.
First off, this is a class win, not overall. Still a great achievement, but not on the same par as in the 60's.
They've produced a race car that will have a very limited number of road going versions, and they haven't been built yet. Should that matter? Well probably, because we've been here before in several forms of the sport where homologation specials become the excuse to have a dominant race car. Their competitors adhere to the GT "spirit" more completely. Does the class want to be filled with one off "specials" that are more akin to McLaren P1's, La Ferrari's or Porsche 918's? Maybe that's OK, but it's a step change that will probably make entering the class far more expensive and difficult.
But with BoP this shouldn't matter right? In theory yes, but BoP is a very inexact science and likely to hack more people off than satisfy them. Add to which it would appear that Ford had been rather blatantly sandbagging in the year's previous WEC rounds and Le Mans practice, one has to question how much they were respecting the purpose behind BoP.
The protest against the Risi Ferrari position lights has added to the sense of distaste, as it seems very mercenary and shows the marketing exercise for what it really is - trying to create a 1-2-3 finish rather than being satisfied with simply beating the Ferrari into second place. However, there are protests flying back and forwards between several of the teams, so perhaps they felt bounced into making the protest to protect their win. Nonetheless is has left a sour taste.
The one remaining unanswered protest, apparently made by a number of competitors is that the Fords broke a 7% rule that attempts to keep the performance of each class distinct from each other. Basically the Ford was too close to the LMP2 field in a straight line. This goes to the heart of the matter, as Endurance racing / Sports Car racing is doing rather well at the moment, arguably far better than anything single seaters can produce. However that success is predicated on large fields, relatively easy entry criteria, availability of cars and cost. If the Ford GT is heralding a new era of either homologation specials or silhouette racing cars, this may be put in jeopardy.
Finally, there is a feeling that the authorities have bent rather too far backwards in accommodating the behemoth that is Ford to be certain of their participation.
Very good post. However, there's unease about how Ford have gone about "winning Le Mans" 50 years after their famous 1960's effort.
First off, this is a class win, not overall. Still a great achievement, but not on the same par as in the 60's.
They've produced a race car that will have a very limited number of road going versions, and they haven't been built yet. Should that matter? Well probably, because we've been here before in several forms of the sport where homologation specials become the excuse to have a dominant race car. Their competitors adhere to the GT "spirit" more completely. Does the class want to be filled with one off "specials" that are more akin to McLaren P1's, La Ferrari's or Porsche 918's? Maybe that's OK, but it's a step change that will probably make entering the class far more expensive and difficult.
But with BoP this shouldn't matter right? In theory yes, but BoP is a very inexact science and likely to hack more people off than satisfy them. Add to which it would appear that Ford had been rather blatantly sandbagging in the year's previous WEC rounds and Le Mans practice, one has to question how much they were respecting the purpose behind BoP.
The protest against the Risi Ferrari position lights has added to the sense of distaste, as it seems very mercenary and shows the marketing exercise for what it really is - trying to create a 1-2-3 finish rather than being satisfied with simply beating the Ferrari into second place. However, there are protests flying back and forwards between several of the teams, so perhaps they felt bounced into making the protest to protect their win. Nonetheless is has left a sour taste.
The one remaining unanswered protest, apparently made by a number of competitors is that the Fords broke a 7% rule that attempts to keep the performance of each class distinct from each other. Basically the Ford was too close to the LMP2 field in a straight line. This goes to the heart of the matter, as Endurance racing / Sports Car racing is doing rather well at the moment, arguably far better than anything single seaters can produce. However that success is predicated on large fields, relatively easy entry criteria, availability of cars and cost. If the Ford GT is heralding a new era of either homologation specials or silhouette racing cars, this may be put in jeopardy.
Finally, there is a feeling that the authorities have bent rather too far backwards in accommodating the behemoth that is Ford to be certain of their participation.
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