Discussion
Alex Langheck said:
There's too many threads for similar/ same events.
Yup, one was set up to cove all Rally disciplines, yet one gets set up for almost every WRC event. barely hits 3 pages on some events.Could it be people just cant be bothered to post updates and that to threads anymore as apps/instant access to the results/timing is just one click away now?
ash73 said:
When I'm doing sim racing if I see a car striken like that I push it round the track 
Just imagine the unforgettable legend Porsche would have created if they did that.
Although they didn't quite go that far, they did bring the #2 car in for a pit stop near the end of the race that it didn't need, in order to allow the two Toyotas to take the finish together and get the glitzy marketing photos that go with that.Just imagine the unforgettable legend Porsche would have created if they did that.
p1stonhead said:
Ah yes makes sense now. I thought they made it all the way round again though but it just took 12 minutes or something?
Perhaps I misheard. Anyway the new 6 minute rule means they wouldn't have gotten there in time anyway.
That sounds like a challenge in itself, which would be good fun to have a go at.Perhaps I misheard. Anyway the new 6 minute rule means they wouldn't have gotten there in time anyway.
Pick up a handful of "normal" hire cars, e.g. Focus, Golf, Mondeo, and see how difficult it is to achieve a 6 minute or less lap.
Even if the top speeds were barely above 100mph, the braking into Arnage could be "interesting", and it'd be a giggle to try and scrape the lettering off of the sidewalls through the Porsche Curves.
Output Flange said:
Although they didn't quite go that far, they did bring the #2 car in for a pit stop near the end of the race that it didn't need, in order to allow the two Toyotas to take the finish together and get the glitzy marketing photos that go with that.
Did they?How did the 919 pitting or not have any impact on Toyota being able to get a photo op?
mat205125 said:
p1stonhead said:
Ah yes makes sense now. I thought they made it all the way round again though but it just took 12 minutes or something?
Perhaps I misheard. Anyway the new 6 minute rule means they wouldn't have gotten there in time anyway.
That sounds like a challenge in itself, which would be good fun to have a go at.Perhaps I misheard. Anyway the new 6 minute rule means they wouldn't have gotten there in time anyway.
Pick up a handful of "normal" hire cars, e.g. Focus, Golf, Mondeo, and see how difficult it is to achieve a 6 minute or less lap.
Even if the top speeds were barely above 100mph, the braking into Arnage could be "interesting", and it'd be a giggle to try and scrape the lettering off of the sidewalls through the Porsche Curves.
Leithen said:
All car manufacturers enter Le Mans for promotional reasons, and given that the class performance is controlled by BoP (Balance of Performance) restrictions to equal the field, it shouldn't really matter what car is entered.
However, there's unease about how Ford have gone about "winning Le Mans" 50 years after their famous 1960's effort.
First off, this is a class win, not overall. Still a great achievement, but not on the same par as in the 60's.
They've produced a race car that will have a very limited number of road going versions, and they haven't been built yet. Should that matter? Well probably, because we've been here before in several forms of the sport where homologation specials become the excuse to have a dominant race car. Their competitors adhere to the GT "spirit" more completely. Does the class want to be filled with one off "specials" that are more akin to McLaren P1's, La Ferrari's or Porsche 918's? Maybe that's OK, but it's a step change that will probably make entering the class far more expensive and difficult.
But with BoP this shouldn't matter right? In theory yes, but BoP is a very inexact science and likely to hack more people off than satisfy them. Add to which it would appear that Ford had been rather blatantly sandbagging in the year's previous WEC rounds and Le Mans practice, one has to question how much they were respecting the purpose behind BoP.
The protest against the Risi Ferrari position lights has added to the sense of distaste, as it seems very mercenary and shows the marketing exercise for what it really is - trying to create a 1-2-3 finish rather than being satisfied with simply beating the Ferrari into second place. However, there are protests flying back and forwards between several of the teams, so perhaps they felt bounced into making the protest to protect their win. Nonetheless is has left a sour taste.
The one remaining unanswered protest, apparently made by a number of competitors is that the Fords broke a 7% rule that attempts to keep the performance of each class distinct from each other. Basically the Ford was too close to the LMP2 field in a straight line. This goes to the heart of the matter, as Endurance racing / Sports Car racing is doing rather well at the moment, arguably far better than anything single seaters can produce. However that success is predicated on large fields, relatively easy entry criteria, availability of cars and cost. If the Ford GT is heralding a new era of either homologation specials or silhouette racing cars, this may be put in jeopardy.
Finally, there is a feeling that the authorities have bent rather too far backwards in accommodating the behemoth that is Ford to be certain of their participation.
There is a further footnote to this. Not only is the road car not yet available (though there is at least a configurator on the web site to play with and a prototype road car was shown on a parade lap before the race along with other Ford GTs and GT40s), but Ford have also indicated that they are not prepared to supply any other teams with the racing version of the car - it is a bespoke factory car unavailable to customers. It is of course the only manufacturer in GTE that has this position - even Corvette Racing (who aren't enthusiastic to produce customer cars) provide the cars for Labre, meanwhile all of the other GTE cars are available to buy from Porsche, Aston Martin and Ferrari for any suitably credible entrants. This situation further fuels the contention that the Ford entry is somewhat contrary to the spirit of the current incarnation of the GTE classes.However, there's unease about how Ford have gone about "winning Le Mans" 50 years after their famous 1960's effort.
First off, this is a class win, not overall. Still a great achievement, but not on the same par as in the 60's.
They've produced a race car that will have a very limited number of road going versions, and they haven't been built yet. Should that matter? Well probably, because we've been here before in several forms of the sport where homologation specials become the excuse to have a dominant race car. Their competitors adhere to the GT "spirit" more completely. Does the class want to be filled with one off "specials" that are more akin to McLaren P1's, La Ferrari's or Porsche 918's? Maybe that's OK, but it's a step change that will probably make entering the class far more expensive and difficult.
But with BoP this shouldn't matter right? In theory yes, but BoP is a very inexact science and likely to hack more people off than satisfy them. Add to which it would appear that Ford had been rather blatantly sandbagging in the year's previous WEC rounds and Le Mans practice, one has to question how much they were respecting the purpose behind BoP.
The protest against the Risi Ferrari position lights has added to the sense of distaste, as it seems very mercenary and shows the marketing exercise for what it really is - trying to create a 1-2-3 finish rather than being satisfied with simply beating the Ferrari into second place. However, there are protests flying back and forwards between several of the teams, so perhaps they felt bounced into making the protest to protect their win. Nonetheless is has left a sour taste.
The one remaining unanswered protest, apparently made by a number of competitors is that the Fords broke a 7% rule that attempts to keep the performance of each class distinct from each other. Basically the Ford was too close to the LMP2 field in a straight line. This goes to the heart of the matter, as Endurance racing / Sports Car racing is doing rather well at the moment, arguably far better than anything single seaters can produce. However that success is predicated on large fields, relatively easy entry criteria, availability of cars and cost. If the Ford GT is heralding a new era of either homologation specials or silhouette racing cars, this may be put in jeopardy.
Finally, there is a feeling that the authorities have bent rather too far backwards in accommodating the behemoth that is Ford to be certain of their participation.
RichB said:
I think people have just got pissed off with the endless bickering and sniping that goes on generally in Pistonheads.
Doesn't seem to have stopped the New Top Gear thread... 170+ pages of whining and bickering. Amazing that so much energy can be put into that as opposed to enjoying a fantastic event such as the 24h...DiscoColin said:
There is a further footnote to this. Not only is the road car not yet available (though there is at least a configurator on the web site to play with and a prototype road car was shown on a parade lap before the race along with other Ford GTs and GT40s), but Ford have also indicated that they are not prepared to supply any other teams with the racing version of the car - it is a bespoke factory car unavailable to customers. It is of course the only manufacturer in GTE that has this position - even Corvette Racing (who aren't enthusiastic to produce customer cars) provide the cars for Labre, meanwhile all of the other GTE cars are available to buy from Porsche, Aston Martin and Ferrari for any suitably credible entrants. This situation further fuels the contention that the Ford entry is somewhat contrary to the spirit of the current incarnation of the GTE classes.
I'd go further and say that it entirely corrupts the spirit of the GTE classes.Articles like this, that appear to be pure regurgitated PR spin, leave one feeling somewhat disconsolate and more than a touch angry.
Edsell Ford II said:
To do this 50 years later, exactly the way we did it in 1966, is a remarkable achievement
No Edsell, it was nothing like your 1966 victory. That took three years of hard graft to win the thing outright in a car which was arguably a Lola, not a Ford..This time you came 18th, 20th, 21st and 40th. You finished 44 laps behind the winners.
You probably have a good idea why your company weren't prepared to challenge Toyota and Volkswagen for top honours in the LMP1 class and genuinely repeat the success of 1966. I would suggest it's because you know that Ford lacks the knowledge, skill and balls to do so.
But hey, great opportunity for a bit of PR spin even if the presence of the Ford GT on your product pages is laughably incongruous.
Rant over and apologies for the mean spirit. The only way for them to regain any credibility in my mind is to produce several thousand road going Ford GT's and several hundred racing versions.
monamimate said:
RichB said:
I think people have just got pissed off with the endless bickering and sniping that goes on generally in Pistonheads.
Doesn't seem to have stopped the New Top Gear thread... 170+ pages of whining and bickering. Amazing that so much energy can be put into that as opposed to enjoying a fantastic event such as the 24h...
Proves the point, people on here love an argument. I've not looked at that thread 'cos I'v not watched the program. Re the Ford GTs, anyone know how long they are committed for?
Wouldn't surprise me if it was a 1 year only (hence no customer racing cars) to allow the massive adverting campaign (false at that) as surely their power would be turned down more next year. It would be really bad for the series as they unfairly p!ssed over all the other manufacturers / teams who are committed long term.
Wouldn't surprise me if it was a 1 year only (hence no customer racing cars) to allow the massive adverting campaign (false at that) as surely their power would be turned down more next year. It would be really bad for the series as they unfairly p!ssed over all the other manufacturers / teams who are committed long term.
With regard to the Ford/Ferrari rumblings...
After the second World War and the running of the Le Mans 24hr race again, the ACO introduced the concept of 'Prototype' cars in order to encourage manufacturers to take part. There was a requirement still for a certain number of produced vehicles, and all of course still had to abide by the set rules - working lights/indicators, windscreen wipers for closed-cockpit cars, even luggage space (albeit a small suitcase-sized space), etc.
This formula led to the Jaguar C-Type/D-Type, Aston Martin DB3 of the 1950's, and the legendary Ferraris of the 1960's. All prototypes, but all still ostensibly prototypes of road-going cars. When Ford were left standing at the altar by Enzo, they looked for something to hit back with - and saw an early Eric Broadley-designed Lola powered by a Ford V8, which had taken part in the 1963 Le Mans 24hr.
This formed the basis of what would become, of course, the GT40. Broadley and Ford soon parted company - because Broadley wanted to design an out-and-out race car, but Ford wanted a road-going car to complement the GT40 (the Mk.III, eventually). Broadley thought the design and idea was compromised by this, so went off and subsequently put together the beauty that was the Lola T70.
The original GT40 entered the Le Mans 24hr therefore as a prototype (the Mk.III still being some way off), but in design and concept the idea was always there that this would be a customer-available road car - and it shows in the final execution.
Fast-forward just a little to 1968/1969, and there is already the sign that things are going to change. The GT40 won in 1968 against the Porsche 907/908's - cars that bore little or no resemblance to road-going cars. In 1969 the GT40 won again, by a little over 100 metres, from another Porsche 908. Jackie Oliver, one of the winning drivers, said that the GT40 was by 1969 only fast enough to win if others broke down - no doubt aimed at the coming pure-racing Porsches.
By 1970 Ford had gone, and Porsche lined up the seminal 917. This was the game-changer, and the Le Mans 'Prototype' category would never be the same again. Porsche themselves bent the rule books to an astonishing degree with the 917 - the FIA lowered the necessary volume for production volume of the cars from 50 to 25 in the assumption that no manufacturer could neither develop so many race cars, nor build and sell them. Porsche duly lined up 25 'completed' cars for inspection, although not all were anywhere near working order. The 917 set the new bench-mark, and no-one now would doubt their classic and legendary status.
On to 2016 - the Prototypes, like the 917, have no resemblance to any road-going car, even if the manufacturers say the technology filters down. The current GTE-class is as close now to the old 'pre-917' idea of Prototypes, which is probably the attraction for Ford/Ferrari. Ford were welcomed by the other manufacturers on the understanding of the development of the road-going GT. The welcome didn't say 'as long as you don't win', of course. Accusations of sandbagging and of closing the gap between GTE and LMP2 classes abound, aimed at Ford, yet Ferrari finished on the same lap, with the first of the remaining contenders hardly a million miles behind.
If the GT heralds a new 'top-tier' of GTE cars, then it is, to me, the equivalent of the 917 - taking the rules and pushing them to the limit. The other manufacturers will follow - such is motor-sports. I can't argue one way or another whether this is a positive thing, but have little doubt that the GTE cars of the next few years are going to be rather thrilling.
Ford GT against the new Aston Martin Vulcan against the next Ferrari and the new 911? Fantastic.
Apologies for the long and rambling post!
After the second World War and the running of the Le Mans 24hr race again, the ACO introduced the concept of 'Prototype' cars in order to encourage manufacturers to take part. There was a requirement still for a certain number of produced vehicles, and all of course still had to abide by the set rules - working lights/indicators, windscreen wipers for closed-cockpit cars, even luggage space (albeit a small suitcase-sized space), etc.
This formula led to the Jaguar C-Type/D-Type, Aston Martin DB3 of the 1950's, and the legendary Ferraris of the 1960's. All prototypes, but all still ostensibly prototypes of road-going cars. When Ford were left standing at the altar by Enzo, they looked for something to hit back with - and saw an early Eric Broadley-designed Lola powered by a Ford V8, which had taken part in the 1963 Le Mans 24hr.
This formed the basis of what would become, of course, the GT40. Broadley and Ford soon parted company - because Broadley wanted to design an out-and-out race car, but Ford wanted a road-going car to complement the GT40 (the Mk.III, eventually). Broadley thought the design and idea was compromised by this, so went off and subsequently put together the beauty that was the Lola T70.
The original GT40 entered the Le Mans 24hr therefore as a prototype (the Mk.III still being some way off), but in design and concept the idea was always there that this would be a customer-available road car - and it shows in the final execution.
Fast-forward just a little to 1968/1969, and there is already the sign that things are going to change. The GT40 won in 1968 against the Porsche 907/908's - cars that bore little or no resemblance to road-going cars. In 1969 the GT40 won again, by a little over 100 metres, from another Porsche 908. Jackie Oliver, one of the winning drivers, said that the GT40 was by 1969 only fast enough to win if others broke down - no doubt aimed at the coming pure-racing Porsches.
By 1970 Ford had gone, and Porsche lined up the seminal 917. This was the game-changer, and the Le Mans 'Prototype' category would never be the same again. Porsche themselves bent the rule books to an astonishing degree with the 917 - the FIA lowered the necessary volume for production volume of the cars from 50 to 25 in the assumption that no manufacturer could neither develop so many race cars, nor build and sell them. Porsche duly lined up 25 'completed' cars for inspection, although not all were anywhere near working order. The 917 set the new bench-mark, and no-one now would doubt their classic and legendary status.
On to 2016 - the Prototypes, like the 917, have no resemblance to any road-going car, even if the manufacturers say the technology filters down. The current GTE-class is as close now to the old 'pre-917' idea of Prototypes, which is probably the attraction for Ford/Ferrari. Ford were welcomed by the other manufacturers on the understanding of the development of the road-going GT. The welcome didn't say 'as long as you don't win', of course. Accusations of sandbagging and of closing the gap between GTE and LMP2 classes abound, aimed at Ford, yet Ferrari finished on the same lap, with the first of the remaining contenders hardly a million miles behind.
If the GT heralds a new 'top-tier' of GTE cars, then it is, to me, the equivalent of the 917 - taking the rules and pushing them to the limit. The other manufacturers will follow - such is motor-sports. I can't argue one way or another whether this is a positive thing, but have little doubt that the GTE cars of the next few years are going to be rather thrilling.
Ford GT against the new Aston Martin Vulcan against the next Ferrari and the new 911? Fantastic.
Apologies for the long and rambling post!
MikeT66 said:
With regard to the Ford/Ferrari rumblings...
......
If the GT heralds a new 'top-tier' of GTE cars, then it is, to me, the equivalent of the 917 - taking the rules and pushing them to the limit. The other manufacturers will follow - such is motor-sports. I can't argue one way or another whether this is a positive thing, but have little doubt that the GTE cars of the next few years are going to be rather thrilling.
Ford GT against the new Aston Martin Vulcan against the next Ferrari and the new 911? Fantastic.
Apologies for the long and rambling post!
Good post!......
If the GT heralds a new 'top-tier' of GTE cars, then it is, to me, the equivalent of the 917 - taking the rules and pushing them to the limit. The other manufacturers will follow - such is motor-sports. I can't argue one way or another whether this is a positive thing, but have little doubt that the GTE cars of the next few years are going to be rather thrilling.
Ford GT against the new Aston Martin Vulcan against the next Ferrari and the new 911? Fantastic.
Apologies for the long and rambling post!
The lower classes have always been perceived to be tilted in favour of one or other party - in the early days, mainly the French!
GT/Sportscar racing is doing very well at the moment, with numerous series across the world with full fields. A combination of sensible regulations and BoP have meant that these classes are accessible and relatively affordable.
Le Mans entries are difficult to come by, but the link to the other events and series is important. If Ford or other manufacturers are seen to cherry pick the WEC events with cars that are not available to buy and race by others it diminishes the whole category of motorsport IMO.
I'd hate to see Ferrari, Aston Martin, Porsche, Chevrolet, Lamborghini produce one off or limited run GT specials purely designed to compete at Le Mans which then led to a two or three tier structure at that level. It might as well be called LMP4 or LMP5.
Much better to try and encourage McLaren, BMW, Mercedes etc to support Le Mans entries with cars more recognisably based upon their established road going model line up.
One shouldn't get worked up about advertising and PR spin. However the chutzpa shown by Ford after their class win equating it to an overall win 50 years ago takes such liberties to a new level.
Leithen said:
One shouldn't get worked up about advertising and PR spin. However the chutzpa shown by Ford after their class win equating it to an overall win 50 years ago takes such liberties to a new level.
Oh, I don't know about that. I think the shouting from Nissan before last year's Le Mans was on a similar plane.Output Flange said:
Leithen said:
One shouldn't get worked up about advertising and PR spin. However the chutzpa shown by Ford after their class win equating it to an overall win 50 years ago takes such liberties to a new level.
Oh, I don't know about that. I think the shouting from Nissan before last year's Le Mans was on a similar plane.
Edited to add - Although, however misguided, Nissan did t least have the balls to have a crack at LMP1.
Edited by Leithen on Wednesday 22 June 10:02
RichB said:
The difference being that in the first part of your post the manufacturers were going for an outright win. At the weekend Ford were aiming for a class win with well accepted rules which according to many they twisted.
Absolutely - which was the (rather rambled) point of the post... that this has been done before, and not just by Porsche. Nissan, too, bent the rules in the 1990's, as even Prototypes had to then have a 'small briefcase-sized luggage space - Nissan put theirs where it was inaccessible! Not breaking rules, of course, just a 'reinterpretation'. It has always, and will always, be a facet of motorsports that this happens. Blown floors, hidden air-restrictors... the list is endless. This epic thread - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... - is full of them. Some are blatant cheating, some are at the edge of the rules, like the GT - it would not have got through rigorous scrutineering otherwise. Not in the spirit of the category? OK, but neither was that wonderful 917 or it's forebears, and we do not disparage those illustrious victories.As for the Class win - why not? Ford (and Ferrari) seem to have no ambition in the LMP1 category due to it's nature - I for one am glad that they both, along with Aston Martin and Corvette, show no interest in this and look towards road-legal road-cars as a starting point instead. I just want McLaren to get involved, too, and dump the rubbish F1 pantomime.
For me, it's all part of the endless fascination with motorsports.
Edited by MikeT66 on Wednesday 22 June 10:51
Dakkon said:
Ferrari are considering LMP1, they have a test mule running, but whether they actually enter a team or not is another thing.
If they don't get a win in F1 this year I can see their management putting more resources into WEC at the expense of the ( in their view ) underperforming F1 teamGassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff