BTCC Snetterton.
Discussion
Driving standards in BTCC will always be a two edged sword .
The majority of the paying public love to see incidents and it makes for dramatic TV .
I was a Driving Standards Observer and Judge of Fact before I gave up marshalling, the constant battle of dealing with people with more money than talent and organisations that put TV viewing figures before regulations and safety was one of the reasons that I gave it up .
Circuit motorsport is a non contact sport .A pity no one has told Btcc.
The majority of the paying public love to see incidents and it makes for dramatic TV .
I was a Driving Standards Observer and Judge of Fact before I gave up marshalling, the constant battle of dealing with people with more money than talent and organisations that put TV viewing figures before regulations and safety was one of the reasons that I gave it up .
Circuit motorsport is a non contact sport .A pity no one has told Btcc.
The Wookie said:
emicen said:
Same goes for Dan Welch. Talking about people need to think about when to lift out when he's got just about the most distinguished career of pushing his car in to downright stupid positions on track and getting blootered as a consequence.
Bang on. I get run off the track on the outside and then penalised because the last contact was off the track. He's like one of those dick heads in the dash cam threads who accelerate towards cars that have pulled out in front of them or close up gaps then have an accident. By the letter of the law they might have been in the right but completely self inflicted.Someone had to be punished and the penalty I got was in proportion to the outcome, not the actual incident itself. In fact even the stewards agreed, they halved the fine and removed the grid drop on appeal, although I still feel it was massively harsh
The commentator's words of 'Jackson runs wide and is collected by Dan Welch' certainly summed it up for me, Welch went into you.
SunsetZed said:
not really sure what the stewards expected you to do.
The stewards will have had a lot of information at their disposal including accounts from all involved and footage from various perspectives.Their findings are far more relevant than anything we can speculate here and they exonerated Welch.
SunsetZed said:
It was hard to see from the TV footage due to the amount of dust but it certainly looked to me like all you were wide (couldn't see why) and simply trying to rejoin the track in the normal manner so I was surprised about the penalty, not really sure what the stewards expected you to do.
The commentator's words of 'Jackson runs wide and is collected by Dan Welch' certainly summed it up for me, Welch went into you.
If you watch the Rear view mirror from andy jordans R2 onboard. It seems as if Welch punts off the wookie and then all hell breaks loose.The commentator's words of 'Jackson runs wide and is collected by Dan Welch' certainly summed it up for me, Welch went into you.
Willhire89 said:
The stewards will have had a lot of information at their disposal including accounts from all involved and footage from various perspectives.
Their findings are far more relevant than anything we can speculate here and they exonerated Welch.
Doesn't mean they get it right. AMD appealed and halved the fine.Their findings are far more relevant than anything we can speculate here and they exonerated Welch.
I was watching on a screen with my own eyes and I see Jackson running wide and then Welch collects him.
If Welch lifted like he suggests other should do, he wouldn't be facing a reshell.
Again if you look at the incident earlier in the year between Welch and Simpson it was another 'non fault' incident that could have been avoided if Welch had shown a bit more awareness.
RoadRunner220 said:
swooshiain said:
That was the scariest accident I've seen in the BTCC in a long time.
Yep, after watching it live I actually feared that we might not actually get a replay because of what could have happened. Thankfully everyone's fine.I also think it's a minor miracle there wasn't further "action" as well - during race three (once it did restart) there was some debris (bodywork) on the racing line between Palmer and Agostini that got very run-over and splintered... I was very much expecting puncture related incidents into/around Agostini. Thankfully it didn't happen.
I was at Snetterton for the first time in three years. A few observations:
1. the cars seems a little quieter over previous years?
2. I was at Murrays grandstand instead of the bombhole over previous years, however all classes seemed to be struggling to overtake. Is the performance gap really that narrow or is it the track?
3. Carnage. Much as I love a bit of hearty racing, I was getting quite bored of the cars being recovered/races re-started during the day.
It did seem very well attended and access at the place is really very good. Kids and family enjoyed it, even though we were all s
tting ourselves as the ambulance went off to recover the cameraman.
1. the cars seems a little quieter over previous years?
2. I was at Murrays grandstand instead of the bombhole over previous years, however all classes seemed to be struggling to overtake. Is the performance gap really that narrow or is it the track?
3. Carnage. Much as I love a bit of hearty racing, I was getting quite bored of the cars being recovered/races re-started during the day.
It did seem very well attended and access at the place is really very good. Kids and family enjoyed it, even though we were all s
tting ourselves as the ambulance went off to recover the cameraman.The Wookie said:
It's ok, I can understand why people support them, they've got the mealy mouthed victim act down almost as well as the father and son country bumpkin racer act.
The Wookie said:
The worst thing about it is just how manipulative and two faced it is. All the track tours, all the patronising online, it's all ultimately for their own benefit, either to give themselves 'poor old us' credibility or actually using these situations to beg cash from people. They don't care about the fans, they don't even respect them, it is completely 100% an act.
In all my years at BTCC, I have never hear such unprofessionalism from a "driver".Moaning and b
hing is all par for the course, but this is bringing it up to a new level.One question, after the BTCC stewards and officials studied the extensive footage, witness statements, et al, who was fined and penalised for this incident?
Ollie Jackson or Dan Welch?
And remember the consequences (and the bloody expense!) for the other drivers caught up in this debacle.
Sebring440 said:
In all my years at BTCC, I have never hear such unprofessionalism from a "driver".
Moaning and bhing is all par for the course, but this is bringing it up to a new level.
One question, after the BTCC stewards and officials studied the extensive footage, witness statements, et al, who was fined and penalised for this incident?
Ollie Jackson or Dan Welch?
And remember the consequences (and the bloody expense!) for the other drivers caught up in this debacle.
I'm missing something , who are you? Your profile doesn't say, what are you hiding?Moaning and b
hing is all par for the course, but this is bringing it up to a new level.One question, after the BTCC stewards and officials studied the extensive footage, witness statements, et al, who was fined and penalised for this incident?
Ollie Jackson or Dan Welch?
And remember the consequences (and the bloody expense!) for the other drivers caught up in this debacle.
Sebring440 said:
In all my years at BTCC, I have never hear such unprofessionalism from a "driver".
Moaning and bhing is all par for the course, but this is bringing it up to a new level.
One question, after the BTCC stewards and officials studied the extensive footage, witness statements, et al, who was fined and penalised for this incident?
Ollie Jackson or Dan Welch?
And remember the consequences (and the bloody expense!) for the other drivers caught up in this debacle.
Unprofessional? I pay my bills, my team pays their mechanics and suppliers, that's professional. If a car I'm driving gets wrecked, I pay for it, that's professional. On the day I am unable to start a race weekend without the ability to fulfil those requirements then I will stop racing, that's professional. Ask anyone in the paddock out of the two of us who they think is the unprofessional one.Moaning and b
hing is all par for the course, but this is bringing it up to a new level.One question, after the BTCC stewards and officials studied the extensive footage, witness statements, et al, who was fined and penalised for this incident?
Ollie Jackson or Dan Welch?
And remember the consequences (and the bloody expense!) for the other drivers caught up in this debacle.
I'm also not the one moaning, I'm the one defending my reputation, if that comes across as b
hing then it's only because I'm sick of no one sticking their head above the parapet to tell people what they are actually like. I sat there and watched all that footage multiple times too you know, and I disagree with the judgement, at worst from my point of view it was a racing incident, either way it was unnecessary and any expense totally self inflicted.
As for the expense for the other drivers, I have a lot of sympathy and I massively regret that others have had expense from something that was nothing to do with them but unfortunately that is motorsport, I've been on the receiving end of it far more times than I've been the source of it
Edited by The Wookie on Tuesday 2nd August 07:20
The Wookie said:
I sat there and watched all that footage multiple times too you know, and I disagree with the judgement, at worst from my point of view it was a racing incident, either way it was unnecessary and any expense totally self inflicted.
I'm guessing that it depends on the Series / Circuit but when the stewards make the judgement in a an incident like this does it tend to be informative, i.e. you did this wrong which caused this when actually you should have done that or is it as simple as we think it was your fault, we're fining you X and giving you X number of points on your licence?Janesy B said:
Welch already has someone offering him another Proton shell.
I'm pretty certain this - https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/68851/pr... - is not Dan's race car but another shell built at the start of the season.As shocking as it the driving was this weekend, the thing which I really hate is the petty name calling on the grid, I respected Andrew Jordan when he was winning, as soon as he struggles a bit, he's slagging people off on live TV calling them idiots then talking about respect from other drivers! THIS is what lets the series down.
Also Mark Howard properly moaning in the pit lane while Hunter's car was still on the barrier and nobody knew if the cameraman was even alive! I get that disappointment and frustration makes people hot headed but if I was a sponsor, he'd have just lost my backing. There's no need to behave like a child in any sport, stay professional and you earn the respect.
The one bonus of 'poor driving standards' is that it meant that I was glued to the coverage rather than having it on while doing something else!
Robmarriott said:
Janesy B said:
Welch already has someone offering him another Proton shell.
I'm pretty certain this - https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/68851/pr... - is not Dan's race car but another shell built at the start of the season.As shocking as it the driving was this weekend, the thing which I really hate is the petty name calling on the grid, I respected Andrew Jordan when he was winning, as soon as he struggles a bit, he's slagging people off on live TV calling them idiots then talking about respect from other drivers! THIS is what lets the series down.
Also Mark Howard properly moaning in the pit lane while Hunter's car was still on the barrier and nobody knew if the cameraman was even alive! I get that disappointment and frustration makes people hot headed but if I was a sponsor, he'd have just lost my backing. There's no need to behave like a child in any sport, stay professional and you earn the respect.
The one bonus of 'poor driving standards' is that it meant that I was glued to the coverage rather than having it on while doing something else!
Lets have drivers naming and shaming the idiots.
It's crap driving and billies at the back of the grid which is letting the series down.
Thankfully the cameraman is OK - but an injury or worse, at the weekend may have woken up Mr Gow and others charged with running this Stock Car series to address the horrendous issues it has.
I don't disagree about there being some questionable drivers on the grid, who just happen to have money but there are procedures in place for complaining, crying about it live on TV looking like a spoilt kid isn't in the rule book!
By all means, complain about bad driving, just use the right channels.
If you really feel you have to, complain on TV but if you call someone an idiot then in the next breath, utter the word 'respect', there's only one person who looks like an idiot.
In club level racing, you HAVE TO go to the clerk of the course, you can't slag someone off on TV because it's not covered, if you disrespect someone in other forms of sport in a public setting, you get a fine or a ban for bringing the sport into disrepute.
By all means, complain about bad driving, just use the right channels.
If you really feel you have to, complain on TV but if you call someone an idiot then in the next breath, utter the word 'respect', there's only one person who looks like an idiot.
In club level racing, you HAVE TO go to the clerk of the course, you can't slag someone off on TV because it's not covered, if you disrespect someone in other forms of sport in a public setting, you get a fine or a ban for bringing the sport into disrepute.
Sebring440 said:
In all my years at BTCC, I have never hear such unprofessionalism from a "driver".
Moaning and bhing is all par for the course, but this is bringing it up to a new level.
One question, after the BTCC stewards and officials studied the extensive footage, witness statements, et al, who was fined and penalised for this incident?
Ollie Jackson or Dan Welch?
And remember the consequences (and the bloody expense!) for the other drivers caught up in this debacle.
How about how Welch treated Wilmot then?Moaning and b
hing is all par for the course, but this is bringing it up to a new level.One question, after the BTCC stewards and officials studied the extensive footage, witness statements, et al, who was fined and penalised for this incident?
Ollie Jackson or Dan Welch?
And remember the consequences (and the bloody expense!) for the other drivers caught up in this debacle.
There's another vid on youtube which clearly shows Welch pushing Ollie off because he failed to see him on the outside throughout the whole corner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8pMQyF4rAc&t=...
Ian Harrison is calling for a tougher licence threshold for BTCC debutants: http://www.touringcartimes.com/2016/08/02/triple-e...
Away from this controversy, the top ten in the points table is astonishingly close. 50 points covering the top ten, with 63 up for grabs at every round..... It is interesting to see Turkington now 5th in the table behind the two jct600-BMWs and Hondas. A great comeback after a terrible start to the season.
Away from this controversy, the top ten in the points table is astonishingly close. 50 points covering the top ten, with 63 up for grabs at every round..... It is interesting to see Turkington now 5th in the table behind the two jct600-BMWs and Hondas. A great comeback after a terrible start to the season.
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