BTCC Driving standards
Discussion
Seems to me that there are two totally different issues going on here.
1. Front runners nudging each other to pass, not causing major incidents and doing it within certain boundaries even if they are outside what would be considered Ok in any UK club meeting.
2. Tail enders with deep pockets or something to prove (or both) regularly refusing to give an inch even when they absolutely should or simply running out of talent and causing severe damage to other competitors.
No1 is a bad influence but it's also what makes BTCC exciting for the huge audiences it attracts, nobody wants to watch cars just going round behind each other with no way of getting past because they are all so evenly matched. How far they go is effectively self-regulating and they don't go crazy with it because they can't afford DNFs or penalties because they are all contending for podiums and points.
No2 is the result of money (or celebrity) buying seats and should lead to regular exclusions.
1. Front runners nudging each other to pass, not causing major incidents and doing it within certain boundaries even if they are outside what would be considered Ok in any UK club meeting.
2. Tail enders with deep pockets or something to prove (or both) regularly refusing to give an inch even when they absolutely should or simply running out of talent and causing severe damage to other competitors.
No1 is a bad influence but it's also what makes BTCC exciting for the huge audiences it attracts, nobody wants to watch cars just going round behind each other with no way of getting past because they are all so evenly matched. How far they go is effectively self-regulating and they don't go crazy with it because they can't afford DNFs or penalties because they are all contending for podiums and points.
No2 is the result of money (or celebrity) buying seats and should lead to regular exclusions.
Steve H said:
Seems to me that there are two totally different issues going on here.
1. Front runners nudging each other to pass, not causing major incidents and doing it within certain boundaries even if they are outside what would be considered Ok in any UK club meeting.
2. Tail enders with deep pockets or something to prove (or both) regularly refusing to give an inch even when they absolutely should or simply running out of talent and causing severe damage to other competitors.
No1 is a bad influence but it's also what makes BTCC exciting for the huge audiences it attracts, nobody wants to watch cars just going round behind each other with no way of getting past because they are all so evenly matched. How far they go is effectively self-regulating and they don't go crazy with it because they can't afford DNFs or penalties because they are all contending for podiums and points.
No2 is the result of money (or celebrity) buying seats and should lead to regular exclusions.
This. Those at the front know how hard they can lean on one another and get away with it. Those at the back don't know and lack experience, and sadly that means that some of those at the front end get caught up in their shenanigans.1. Front runners nudging each other to pass, not causing major incidents and doing it within certain boundaries even if they are outside what would be considered Ok in any UK club meeting.
2. Tail enders with deep pockets or something to prove (or both) regularly refusing to give an inch even when they absolutely should or simply running out of talent and causing severe damage to other competitors.
No1 is a bad influence but it's also what makes BTCC exciting for the huge audiences it attracts, nobody wants to watch cars just going round behind each other with no way of getting past because they are all so evenly matched. How far they go is effectively self-regulating and they don't go crazy with it because they can't afford DNFs or penalties because they are all contending for podiums and points.
No2 is the result of money (or celebrity) buying seats and should lead to regular exclusions.
It did seem a trifle ott at the weekend, it was painful to see the lengths they had to go to just to get the Proton onto a trailer.
Does the BTCC run to different regs to the standard MSA regs, someone recently suggested to me that they did in order to allow for more contact and leaving the circuit, which as others have suggested is what a big part of the audience wants to see.
My concern is that the standards of driving then filter down into club level motorsport where there's plenty of enthusiasts running cars which they cannot afford to have big accidents in.
Earlier in the year I recall watching a video a driver had uploaded showing an overtake at Donington, it involved diving up the inside hitting the car in front then forcing them into a spin. If I'd been driving I think I'd done my best to make sure the video evidence was never seen by anyone, not upload it to you tube
My concern is that the standards of driving then filter down into club level motorsport where there's plenty of enthusiasts running cars which they cannot afford to have big accidents in.
Earlier in the year I recall watching a video a driver had uploaded showing an overtake at Donington, it involved diving up the inside hitting the car in front then forcing them into a spin. If I'd been driving I think I'd done my best to make sure the video evidence was never seen by anyone, not upload it to you tube
Edited by andye30m3 on Wednesday 3rd August 14:06
andye30m3 said:
Does the BTCC run to different regs to the standard MSA regs, someone recently suggested to me that they did in order to allow for more contact and leaving the circuit, which as others have suggested is what a big part of the audience wants to see.
Correct. This is the extract from the MSA Blue Book judicial section (Regs 1.1.5 and 1.1.6 are driving standards and flags respectively).2.2.Variation to Judicial Procedures. By sanction of the MSC the Regulations for the British Touring Car
Championship are permitted to vary the judicial procedures in respect only of driving offences contrary to General Regulation 1.1.5 or 1.1.6 in order that:
(a) Penalties not referred to in the these Regulations may be imposed.
and/or
(b) The structure of Appeals and consequential procedures permitted by the applicable Regulations for the Championship may be varied from that contained in these Regulations.
2.2.1.
In the above event the current British Touring Car Championship Regulations will replace the part or parts of these Regulations that have been varied.
Steve H said:
Seems to me that there are two totally different issues going on here.
1. Front runners nudging each other to pass, not causing major incidents and doing it within certain boundaries even if they are outside what would be considered Ok in any UK club meeting.
2. Tail enders with deep pockets or something to prove (or both) regularly refusing to give an inch even when they absolutely should or simply running out of talent and causing severe damage to other competitors.
No1 is a bad influence but it's also what makes BTCC exciting for the huge audiences it attracts, nobody wants to watch cars just going round behind each other with no way of getting past because they are all so evenly matched. How far they go is effectively self-regulating and they don't go crazy with it because they can't afford DNFs or penalties because they are all contending for podiums and points.
No2 is the result of money (or celebrity) buying seats and should lead to regular exclusions.
This perfectly sums up my thoughts on the matter as well. There's a lot of bumping and bashing at the front, and it rarely results in someone having a big off. Too many people at the back with deep pockets and machinery they're not really able to drive properly.1. Front runners nudging each other to pass, not causing major incidents and doing it within certain boundaries even if they are outside what would be considered Ok in any UK club meeting.
2. Tail enders with deep pockets or something to prove (or both) regularly refusing to give an inch even when they absolutely should or simply running out of talent and causing severe damage to other competitors.
No1 is a bad influence but it's also what makes BTCC exciting for the huge audiences it attracts, nobody wants to watch cars just going round behind each other with no way of getting past because they are all so evenly matched. How far they go is effectively self-regulating and they don't go crazy with it because they can't afford DNFs or penalties because they are all contending for podiums and points.
No2 is the result of money (or celebrity) buying seats and should lead to regular exclusions.
This is very easy to fix, follow the Aussie v8 rules regarding contact. All the drivers moaned at first when pushing to pass, running people off down straights and off corners was banned and they actually follow the rules up with suitable punishments. Now they rarely have idiot moves, the racing is fantastic with plenty of passes in every race.
I think the short sprint races we now have encourages the contact as well, two longer races each weekend would encourage better drivers who understand the race isn't lost after the first lap. Love the touring cars but it's lost it's way in the past 4-5 years.
I think the short sprint races we now have encourages the contact as well, two longer races each weekend would encourage better drivers who understand the race isn't lost after the first lap. Love the touring cars but it's lost it's way in the past 4-5 years.
The quality of racing at the front of BTCC is superb. Yes, there are nudges, but that's part of the game in any touring car series from DTM to Nascar.
The Turkington/Shedden battle was brilliant. Collard (who has been a little hot-headed in the past) has had some brilliant racecraft this year. I like the fact that to be in championship contention, the drivers have to balance risk and opportunity. It's no surprise that in the last couple of years the final round shoot out has been between the most experienced drivers. It's one of the most difficult championships in the world to win, and success requires a lot of nous.....
There are plenty of drivers who have the pace to win. It's briliant that relatively young teams and drivers such as Morgan and Ingram have become winners. But even they have realised that stringing together a full year campaign requires more than just bursts of pace. Drivers such as Aiden Moffat and Warren Scott are investing in coaching (Tom Onslow-Cole and Alain Menu) to help them get to the highest level.
When I look furthe down the field at some of the drivers involved in regular off-track excursions, I do wonder that if they devoted just 10% of their budget to driver coaching , they may save 50% on repair costs.
The Turkington/Shedden battle was brilliant. Collard (who has been a little hot-headed in the past) has had some brilliant racecraft this year. I like the fact that to be in championship contention, the drivers have to balance risk and opportunity. It's no surprise that in the last couple of years the final round shoot out has been between the most experienced drivers. It's one of the most difficult championships in the world to win, and success requires a lot of nous.....
There are plenty of drivers who have the pace to win. It's briliant that relatively young teams and drivers such as Morgan and Ingram have become winners. But even they have realised that stringing together a full year campaign requires more than just bursts of pace. Drivers such as Aiden Moffat and Warren Scott are investing in coaching (Tom Onslow-Cole and Alain Menu) to help them get to the highest level.
When I look furthe down the field at some of the drivers involved in regular off-track excursions, I do wonder that if they devoted just 10% of their budget to driver coaching , they may save 50% on repair costs.
Steve H said:
Seems to me that there are two totally different issues going on here.
1. Front runners nudging each other to pass, not causing major incidents and doing it within certain boundaries even if they are outside what would be considered Ok in any UK club meeting.
2. Tail enders with deep pockets or something to prove (or both) regularly refusing to give an inch even when they absolutely should or simply running out of talent and causing severe damage to other competitors.
No1 is a bad influence but it's also what makes BTCC exciting for the huge audiences it attracts, nobody wants to watch cars just going round behind each other with no way of getting past because they are all so evenly matched. How far they go is effectively self-regulating and they don't go crazy with it because they can't afford DNFs or penalties because they are all contending for podiums and points.
No2 is the result of money (or celebrity) buying seats and should lead to regular exclusions.
What a great post and agree 100%. Personally I like No.1 and it's what I've grown up knowing BTCC to be. IMO if you want to watch racing with zero contact, then there is F1 and it's support classes, or even the endurance races where there is too much at stake.1. Front runners nudging each other to pass, not causing major incidents and doing it within certain boundaries even if they are outside what would be considered Ok in any UK club meeting.
2. Tail enders with deep pockets or something to prove (or both) regularly refusing to give an inch even when they absolutely should or simply running out of talent and causing severe damage to other competitors.
No1 is a bad influence but it's also what makes BTCC exciting for the huge audiences it attracts, nobody wants to watch cars just going round behind each other with no way of getting past because they are all so evenly matched. How far they go is effectively self-regulating and they don't go crazy with it because they can't afford DNFs or penalties because they are all contending for podiums and points.
No2 is the result of money (or celebrity) buying seats and should lead to regular exclusions.
If you like watching carnage, there is always Ginetta Juniors and the Porsche series!
df76 said:
andye30m3 said:
Does the BTCC run to different regs to the standard MSA regs, someone recently suggested to me that they did in order to allow for more contact and leaving the circuit, which as others have suggested is what a big part of the audience wants to see.
Correct. This is the extract from the MSA Blue Book judicial section (Regs 1.1.5 and 1.1.6 are driving standards and flags respectively).2.2.Variation to Judicial Procedures. By sanction of the MSC the Regulations for the British Touring Car
Championship are permitted to vary the judicial procedures in respect only of driving offences contrary to General Regulation 1.1.5 or 1.1.6 in order that:
(a) Penalties not referred to in the these Regulations may be imposed.
and/or
(b) The structure of Appeals and consequential procedures permitted by the applicable Regulations for the Championship may be varied from that contained in these Regulations.
2.2.1.
In the above event the current British Touring Car Championship Regulations will replace the part or parts of these Regulations that have been varied.
Blue Book said:
1.1.5. Driving in a manner incompatible with general safety, and/or departing from the standard of a reasonably competent driver.
1.1.6. Any contravention of Flag or Light Signals (Q.5).
The blue book does not provision for the strike rule the BTCC has in place, where 3 strikes sends you to the back of the grid even though the strikes are not actual endorsements.1.1.6. Any contravention of Flag or Light Signals (Q.5).
The blue book also does not specifically stipulate time penalties for working on the car on the grid outside permitted durations, like the 30s penalty someone was awarded at Snetterton for having the car on jacks on the grid beyond when this is allowed.
The section you have quoted really does not state they have any more freedom to engage in argybargy than a club racer, it just says they can are allowed to implement penalties outside the standard ones.
Interesting debate.
Whilst this is motorsport, it's also a business, and a business needs customers (us!), and they may be thinking the customer is right, in that we want wheel-to-wheel racing (unlike the now very anodyne F1), with some nudging thrown in for good measure. The customer is always right may be high in their thinking.
On a slightly seperate note; I note that it's rarely the manufacturer that is shown on the grid listings on tv, it's the driver and sponsor. And then when on track, it's not easy less for the trained eye to spot what the cars are, not helped by the disguising effect of so many sponsor stickers. Is this masking of the manufacturer deliberate?
Whilst this is motorsport, it's also a business, and a business needs customers (us!), and they may be thinking the customer is right, in that we want wheel-to-wheel racing (unlike the now very anodyne F1), with some nudging thrown in for good measure. The customer is always right may be high in their thinking.
On a slightly seperate note; I note that it's rarely the manufacturer that is shown on the grid listings on tv, it's the driver and sponsor. And then when on track, it's not easy less for the trained eye to spot what the cars are, not helped by the disguising effect of so many sponsor stickers. Is this masking of the manufacturer deliberate?
rog007 said:
On a slightly seperate note; I note that it's rarely the manufacturer that is shown on the grid listings on tv, it's the driver and sponsor. And then when on track, it's not easy less for the trained eye to spot what the cars are, not helped by the disguising effect of so many sponsor stickers. Is this masking of the manufacturer deliberate?
They're not going to mention the manufacturer in the team name unless they are a partner. The vast majority of teams have bought/built their cars with no manufacturer involvement so the title space is reserved for the people writing the big cheque for title sponsor status.Prime example, VW played no part in the CC's involvement, so last year it was Team BMR. Now they have managed to get Subaru involved it's Silverline Subaru BMR Racing.
Really? Reg 6.5.1a of this year's regs state the manufacturer's fee is £8,750+VAT - that's not that much to a manufacturer, considering the driver's reg fee.
https://barc.blob.core.windows.net/barcnet/2016-ch...
https://barc.blob.core.windows.net/barcnet/2016-ch...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/125647...
Rules amended following Snetterton's incidents.
Rules amended following Snetterton's incidents.
emicen said:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/125647...
Rules amended following Snetterton's incidents.
Brings the BTCC regs more into line with general MSA regs, although it depends on how it's applied of course.Rules amended following Snetterton's incidents.
df76 said:
emicen said:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/125647...
Rules amended following Snetterton's incidents.
Brings the BTCC regs more into line with general MSA regs, although it depends on how it's applied of course.Rules amended following Snetterton's incidents.
Didn't they mention that one driver (Collard I think it might have been) got penalised for running on to the grass to avoid a collision? Either that or I misheard it (it was during the clean up so I wasn't paying full attention in all honesty) but if that's the case then you are going to get these kind of incidents as the drivers are hell bent on staying on the track.
Mind you as has been said the quality of the back of grid drivers could do with some brushing up. It's clear that they see the start as a way of gaining places quickly (from their somewhat lacklustre qualifying round) with the mid-pack drivers sticking out as many appendages as they need to stop those at the back of the pack from getting past. Unfortunately they also don't seem to see backing off and aiming for another opportunity further down the track as an option (lack of experience/deep pockets combined with short races seems to only exacerbate the situation).
Knockhill should be interesting to see if the same sort of thing occurs as that is a fairly tight narrow circuit with few natural overtaking places (mainly all in the first and last bends) and some fairly sizeable sausage kerbs (it'll be interesting to see who gets the most air after hopping over them).
Mind you as has been said the quality of the back of grid drivers could do with some brushing up. It's clear that they see the start as a way of gaining places quickly (from their somewhat lacklustre qualifying round) with the mid-pack drivers sticking out as many appendages as they need to stop those at the back of the pack from getting past. Unfortunately they also don't seem to see backing off and aiming for another opportunity further down the track as an option (lack of experience/deep pockets combined with short races seems to only exacerbate the situation).
Knockhill should be interesting to see if the same sort of thing occurs as that is a fairly tight narrow circuit with few natural overtaking places (mainly all in the first and last bends) and some fairly sizeable sausage kerbs (it'll be interesting to see who gets the most air after hopping over them).
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