RE: Ron Dennis steps down from McLaren
Discussion
Wombat3 said:
At a personal level he must be absolutely gutted to have his business (because really, it isn't anyone else's) taken away from him like this.
It must be very tough for somebody like him, at the age of 70- half of those years spent working at McLaren (generally diligently)- to suddenly not be doing that anymore. I hope he can be quickly repurposed. I'm sure he can perform a service to another team or the sport as a whole. Ron Dennis reinvented McLaren after its doldrum years post Hunt / Fittipaldi.As far as I know none of the people involved in the coup have done anything more than network and write cheques . It may still be the right thing to do for the business and ...retch ..brand values and all that guff but Ron has done infinitely more for motor sport than all his boardroom rivals combined and how sad to end on such a bitter note . Possibly not my number one choice for being stuck in a lift with but a great man regardless.
Slurms said:
Nothing surprising here, he launched the coup which brought him back to the team while Mansour Ojjeh was recovering from major surgery and stabbed Martin Whitmarsh in the back in the process.
Nothing less than Ron deserves after two terrible seasons.
Where is your source for that? Martin is not at all unhappy - he has £10m reasons why.Nothing less than Ron deserves after two terrible seasons.
williamp said:
Ther rot started with their £100m fine for, well being Mclaren. How mnay potential sponsors became wary after this and hooked up with sqeaky clean Ferrari or up-and-coming and in no way dodgy Redbull??
They they graciously let a tiny team, the remains of the disasterous Honda team and sure-fire back markers "Brawn" use their engines, who then went onto win the WDC, then took over as Mercedes factory team and Mclaren had to be a customer of their engines.
Fast forward to accepting a Honda engine (would love to know what the problems really are: political? Honda management?? Dennis???) and struggling to qualify sometimes. The results do not match the budget. Shame. Williams have never really recovered from their domiant position in the 90s, when Renault left
You need to read up on the reasons why Mercedes made their decision. Nothing to do with graciously allowing Brawn to use the engines. And it wasn't the engines that earned Brawn the 2009 championship. You'll also discover the reasons for the problems Honda faced too.They they graciously let a tiny team, the remains of the disasterous Honda team and sure-fire back markers "Brawn" use their engines, who then went onto win the WDC, then took over as Mercedes factory team and Mclaren had to be a customer of their engines.
Fast forward to accepting a Honda engine (would love to know what the problems really are: political? Honda management?? Dennis???) and struggling to qualify sometimes. The results do not match the budget. Shame. Williams have never really recovered from their domiant position in the 90s, when Renault left
chrisgixer said:
I read rumours of an unofficial approach from Apple , rumoured to buy out McLaren. So one might then guess from that, if true, that Ron doesn't want to sell out, and the other two share holders do. Apples interest being autonomous cars.
Might be rubbish, but McLarens fortunes could go either way in this instance. Who can tell? Major sponsor effectively, or, major drain on resources? I can't see Apple share holders tollerating the destruction of a major Marque like McLaren persoanlly.
Maybe it's a fear of the unknown for Ron. Or maybe I'm well off the mark. Lol
Yes, you're way, way, way off the mark lol Might be rubbish, but McLarens fortunes could go either way in this instance. Who can tell? Major sponsor effectively, or, major drain on resources? I can't see Apple share holders tollerating the destruction of a major Marque like McLaren persoanlly.
Maybe it's a fear of the unknown for Ron. Or maybe I'm well off the mark. Lol
Wombat3 said:
If you look at what McLaren was when he started & what it is now (and how so many others fell by the wayside along the way) then this is lunacy IMO. He's Ron Dennis for crying out loud, he's forgotten more about McLaren & F1 than Ojeh or the Bahrainis will ever know. Ojeh has never been involved in the day to day running of it AFAIK.
At a personal level he must be absolutely gutted to have his business (because really, it isn't anyone else's) taken away from him like this.
As to knifing Whitmarsh, yes he did, but Whitmarsh failed absolutely & was, at the end of the day, an employee. McLaren Automotive is going really well & the F1 team is clearly making progress. If this had anything to do with his performance as a manager they would wait till it becomes clear how good next year's car will be.
This has nothing to do with his performance.
But it wasn't just his business anymore, was it?At a personal level he must be absolutely gutted to have his business (because really, it isn't anyone else's) taken away from him like this.
As to knifing Whitmarsh, yes he did, but Whitmarsh failed absolutely & was, at the end of the day, an employee. McLaren Automotive is going really well & the F1 team is clearly making progress. If this had anything to do with his performance as a manager they would wait till it becomes clear how good next year's car will be.
This has nothing to do with his performance.
Edited by Wombat3 on Wednesday 16th November 15:49
According to the OP, he owned 25% of it.
You see this quite often - founder of business gets outside shareholders in to raise capital, but acts as if the businees is still theirs to run as they please.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs in this instance, he was a minority shareholder. If you want full control, don't sell more than 49%, or set up an A/B shareholding struture, where they pay the money but have no rights.
williamp said:
My understanding is that Whitmarsh is very close to Ojjeh, which might be where the fall-out originated from
It pre-dates that, although I know that a number of sources believe that RD took advantage of Ojjeh's double lung transplant to force the sacking through. Joe Saward believes it's Dennis' stance on the F1 circus going to Bahrain and Peter Windsor just says 'it's personal' . FWIW I think Peter is correct, but equally I'm prepared to believe these are all contributory. AW111 said:
Wombat3 said:
If you look at what McLaren was when he started & what it is now (and how so many others fell by the wayside along the way) then this is lunacy IMO. He's Ron Dennis for crying out loud, he's forgotten more about McLaren & F1 than Ojeh or the Bahrainis will ever know. Ojeh has never been involved in the day to day running of it AFAIK.
At a personal level he must be absolutely gutted to have his business (because really, it isn't anyone else's) taken away from him like this.
As to knifing Whitmarsh, yes he did, but Whitmarsh failed absolutely & was, at the end of the day, an employee. McLaren Automotive is going really well & the F1 team is clearly making progress. If this had anything to do with his performance as a manager they would wait till it becomes clear how good next year's car will be.
This has nothing to do with his performance.
But it wasn't just his business anymore, was it?At a personal level he must be absolutely gutted to have his business (because really, it isn't anyone else's) taken away from him like this.
As to knifing Whitmarsh, yes he did, but Whitmarsh failed absolutely & was, at the end of the day, an employee. McLaren Automotive is going really well & the F1 team is clearly making progress. If this had anything to do with his performance as a manager they would wait till it becomes clear how good next year's car will be.
This has nothing to do with his performance.
According to the OP, he owned 25% of it.
You see this quite often - founder of business gets outside shareholders in to raise capital, but acts as if the businees is still theirs to run as they please.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs in this instance, he was a minority shareholder. If you want full control, don't sell more than 49%, or set up an A/B shareholding struture, where they pay the money but have no rights.
rubystone said:
williamp said:
Ther rot started with their £100m fine for, well being Mclaren. How mnay potential sponsors became wary after this and hooked up with sqeaky clean Ferrari or up-and-coming and in no way dodgy Redbull??
They they graciously let a tiny team, the remains of the disasterous Honda team and sure-fire back markers "Brawn" use their engines, who then went onto win the WDC, then took over as Mercedes factory team and Mclaren had to be a customer of their engines.
Fast forward to accepting a Honda engine (would love to know what the problems really are: political? Honda management?? Dennis???) and struggling to qualify sometimes. The results do not match the budget. Shame. Williams have never really recovered from their domiant position in the 90s, when Renault left
You need to read up on the reasons why Mercedes made their decision. Nothing to do with graciously allowing Brawn to use the engines. And it wasn't the engines that earned Brawn the 2009 championship. You'll also discover the reasons for the problems Honda faced too.They they graciously let a tiny team, the remains of the disasterous Honda team and sure-fire back markers "Brawn" use their engines, who then went onto win the WDC, then took over as Mercedes factory team and Mclaren had to be a customer of their engines.
Fast forward to accepting a Honda engine (would love to know what the problems really are: political? Honda management?? Dennis???) and struggling to qualify sometimes. The results do not match the budget. Shame. Williams have never really recovered from their domiant position in the 90s, when Renault left
less of the cryptic stuff, and more links to some genuinely insightful articles would be much appreciated P.S I thought RD's and MO's "issues" stemmed from RD's divorce from his wife of many years ?
williamp said:
This thread shows how much I actually know about the sport I love 
Not necessarily! Perhaps you just don't make your point as positively as some try to do.
Though it was widely reported that Mosley told Ron that Mclaren were fined $10M for what they'd done and $90M for Ron being a
....... The commercial problem for McLaren is that you can't carry on running a business and brand that stands for total perfectionism forever when your F1 performance has been going from bad to worse for nearly a decade.
RD has undoubtedly been the power behind McLaren and has instilled all these perfectionist values about clutter-free desks and unbroken floor tiles and what-have-you in his gigantic Woking ultimate man-cave/palace/evil lair.
Very cool and sexy when you're also winning races. Bit of an embarrassing millstone around the company's neck when for all your megabucks 'perfectionism' you can't build a competitive F1 car year after year....
Hence change required and the only way to make that happen is for RD to go. That's my guess.
RD has undoubtedly been the power behind McLaren and has instilled all these perfectionist values about clutter-free desks and unbroken floor tiles and what-have-you in his gigantic Woking ultimate man-cave/palace/evil lair.
Very cool and sexy when you're also winning races. Bit of an embarrassing millstone around the company's neck when for all your megabucks 'perfectionism' you can't build a competitive F1 car year after year....
Hence change required and the only way to make that happen is for RD to go. That's my guess.
darth_pies said:
The commercial problem for McLaren is that you can't carry on running a business and brand that stands for total perfectionism forever when your F1 performance has been going from bad to worse for nearly a decade.
RD has undoubtedly been the power behind McLaren and has instilled all these perfectionist values about clutter-free desks and unbroken floor tiles and what-have-you in his gigantic Woking ultimate man-cave/palace/evil lair.
Very cool and sexy when you're also winning races. Bit of an embarrassing millstone around the company's neck when for all your megabucks 'perfectionism' you can't build a competitive F1 car year after year....
Hence change required and the only way to make that happen is for RD to go. That's my guess.
It didn't stop Ferrari selling cars in the 80s/early 90s, and hasn't since their F1 efforts have gone south since 2007. Their last title was Raikkonen 9 years ago after all. Indeed McLaren last won it AFTER Ferrari last won it.RD has undoubtedly been the power behind McLaren and has instilled all these perfectionist values about clutter-free desks and unbroken floor tiles and what-have-you in his gigantic Woking ultimate man-cave/palace/evil lair.
Very cool and sexy when you're also winning races. Bit of an embarrassing millstone around the company's neck when for all your megabucks 'perfectionism' you can't build a competitive F1 car year after year....
Hence change required and the only way to make that happen is for RD to go. That's my guess.
McLaren Automotive is going extremely well.
This has nothing to do with any of that, its personal. You only have to look at Dennis reaction to it all to see that.
darth_pies said:
The commercial problem for McLaren is that you can't carry on running a business and brand that stands for total perfectionism forever when your F1 performance has been going from bad to worse for nearly a decade.
RD has undoubtedly been the power behind McLaren and has instilled all these perfectionist values about clutter-free desks and unbroken floor tiles and what-have-you in his gigantic Woking ultimate man-cave/palace/evil lair.
Very cool and sexy when you're also winning races. Bit of an embarrassing millstone around the company's neck when for all your megabucks 'perfectionism' you can't build a competitive F1 car year after year....
Hence change required and the only way to make that happen is for RD to go. That's my guess.
As some bloke called Richards once said in an interview when his blue WRC cars were failing to win with regular monotony :RD has undoubtedly been the power behind McLaren and has instilled all these perfectionist values about clutter-free desks and unbroken floor tiles and what-have-you in his gigantic Woking ultimate man-cave/palace/evil lair.
Very cool and sexy when you're also winning races. Bit of an embarrassing millstone around the company's neck when for all your megabucks 'perfectionism' you can't build a competitive F1 car year after year....
Hence change required and the only way to make that happen is for RD to go. That's my guess.
"IF you're team/brand is perceived as being a winner, you can weather a bad run of results. But once you're no longer perceived as winners, you have a serious problem".
Ronzo clearly didn't see Mr Richards interview, or thought he know better....
I think Ronzo's management of McLaren up to and through the glory days was an object lesson in how to run a successful business. And as such he should be congratulated for what he did.
Whether that £100M fine was the beginning of the end, or whether his soured relationship with OM was the precipitating factor, I'd not know, but he appeared to have lost touch with reality, and those numerous images of him staring vacantly into a monitor without a hint of emotion, didn't do him any favours.
He went through a phase where he was open and chatty (by his standards), yes there was still plenty of "Ronspeak", but he showed a more approachable and warmer side that was quite endearing. Unfortunately that side disappeared into the ether to once again be replaced with the impersonal Ron of old.
Martin Whitmash and Stefano Domenicali were, to my mind, a breath of fresh air for F1, their willingness to answer EJ's cretinous and frequently irritating questions with a smile and a sense of humour made for engaging TV viewing for the masses. Both Ferrari and McLaren have taken a step back into the dark ages with their self imposed "shutters down, talk to no one, say nothing" press embargo.
Slippydiff said:
Come on Ruby, you can do better than that less of the cryptic stuff, and more links to some genuinely insightful articles would be much appreciated
P.S I thought RD's and MO's "issues" stemmed from RD's divorce from his wife of many years ?
To quote Lloyd Grosman 'the clues are there' less of the cryptic stuff, and more links to some genuinely insightful articles would be much appreciated P.S I thought RD's and MO's "issues" stemmed from RD's divorce from his wife of many years ?
But at the end of the day, it makes little difference. But I'd love an invite to the family wedding....
Don't know about Ron's personal problems, or his management style, but always think it's a shame when this type of thing happens in a succesful company.
I'm sure the profits and share price will go up over the next couple of years as the company is bled dry by those who did the ousting, while shouting about what a great job they've done. In reality, the company will probably be sold on, broken up or left to die as the person who created it, knew how to keep the gears spinning, and knew where all the skeletons were is now no longer involved.
I don't follow F1 much these days, but I think Ron's problems started with the mercedes tie up. He thought he was getting an engine supplier along the lines of cosworth - someone he could keep at arms length, while still getting engines for his F1 cars and his road car ambitions. Frank Williams thought he was getting the same from BMW. He woke up go the reality a bit quicker than Ron did - these companies couldn't stomach playing second fiddle to 'garagistas' in the F1 spotlight long term.
the resulting divorce between Mclaren and mercedes was long winded and probably messy internally. Martin Whitmarsh got the bullet for assuming they'd get the same treatment from mercedes as a customer as a factory team. They didn't, and very quickly fell away in the standings. Ron was too busy with the road cars to stop the rot quick enough.
Ironically, the success of Mclaren as whole under his leadership is the reason he's been ousted. Way too much money now involved in the company. The poor performance of the F1 team has provided his enemies with a lever to get rid of him.
If I was Ron, I'd be flogging my 25% to the highest bidder and walking away with my millions, while laughing at the mess mclaren becomes.
I'm sure the profits and share price will go up over the next couple of years as the company is bled dry by those who did the ousting, while shouting about what a great job they've done. In reality, the company will probably be sold on, broken up or left to die as the person who created it, knew how to keep the gears spinning, and knew where all the skeletons were is now no longer involved.
I don't follow F1 much these days, but I think Ron's problems started with the mercedes tie up. He thought he was getting an engine supplier along the lines of cosworth - someone he could keep at arms length, while still getting engines for his F1 cars and his road car ambitions. Frank Williams thought he was getting the same from BMW. He woke up go the reality a bit quicker than Ron did - these companies couldn't stomach playing second fiddle to 'garagistas' in the F1 spotlight long term.
the resulting divorce between Mclaren and mercedes was long winded and probably messy internally. Martin Whitmarsh got the bullet for assuming they'd get the same treatment from mercedes as a customer as a factory team. They didn't, and very quickly fell away in the standings. Ron was too busy with the road cars to stop the rot quick enough.
Ironically, the success of Mclaren as whole under his leadership is the reason he's been ousted. Way too much money now involved in the company. The poor performance of the F1 team has provided his enemies with a lever to get rid of him.
If I was Ron, I'd be flogging my 25% to the highest bidder and walking away with my millions, while laughing at the mess mclaren becomes.
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