The 2017 Rallying thread
Discussion
Fascinating stuff on the brief read through.
So much of this is linked to accident and bad luck.
Yet for some reason this time, the recommendations have been taken on board very literally.
Quite how, in a forest stage a safety crew is supposed to try and allow people to find a safe route to walk along, that isn't the stage I don't know!
But I guess that will just mean no speccys on those stages as they wont be able to ensure safety.
On the RAC recently it was commonplace to walk along the stage, and I see no issue with it as long as you are well off the road and approach the walk realising what cars are likely to do on it.
But, if you want to make it safe, you simply ban people from going.
And rallying dies before your very eyes!!
So much of this is linked to accident and bad luck.
Yet for some reason this time, the recommendations have been taken on board very literally.
Quite how, in a forest stage a safety crew is supposed to try and allow people to find a safe route to walk along, that isn't the stage I don't know!
But I guess that will just mean no speccys on those stages as they wont be able to ensure safety.
On the RAC recently it was commonplace to walk along the stage, and I see no issue with it as long as you are well off the road and approach the walk realising what cars are likely to do on it.
But, if you want to make it safe, you simply ban people from going.
And rallying dies before your very eyes!!
chunder27 said:
....Quite how, in a forest stage a safety crew is supposed to try and allow people to find a safe route to walk along, that isn't the stage I don't know!
My understanding of the point being made here is that the 'safe route' is not by walking down a live stage - the safe route is the difficult one through trees and undergrowth. The selfish spectator however (and yes, I've done it in the past), doesn't want to use the safe route they want to get there, as conveniently as they can, down the smooth road.....As a safety crew we try to make sure that spectators walking down the stage are in position before the competitors come through. There's not much else we can do, it's the marshals who bare the brunt of the spectator abuse when they try and get people to walk off the stage.
Ranger 6 said:
chunder27 said:
....Quite how, in a forest stage a safety crew is supposed to try and allow people to find a safe route to walk along, that isn't the stage I don't know!
My understanding of the point being made here is that the 'safe route' is not by walking down a live stage - the safe route is the difficult one through trees and undergrowth. The selfish spectator however (and yes, I've done it in the past), doesn't want to use the safe route they want to get there, as conveniently as they can, down the smooth road.....As a safety crew we try to make sure that spectators walking down the stage are in position before the competitors come through. There's not much else we can do, it's the marshals who bare the brunt of the spectator abuse when they try and get people to walk off the stage.
It's worth referring to what the Grampian Forest Rally do for spectators - design and set up safe areas which are accessible without going on the stage route (other rallies do the same - commonly know as "pens"):
http://www.grampianstages.co.uk/spectator-info/whe...
Now that seems to be fully-compliant with most of the recommendations, and with correct advertising and a level of secrecy about the "non-spectator" stages, can be very effective.
Problems come from spectators going elsewhere - in the majority of cases the spectators who find out where the non-spec areas are, are the more experienced, responsible and rally-savvy type who will keep themselves and others safe.
BUT not all spectators have that good attitude, and in the case of the JCR14 (including the guy interviewed by the BBC that was apparently injured) some need to be explicitly told where to stand. Which is where the recommendations come in about making prohibited areas (informed by accident and near-miss records, risk assessments etc) clearer. In the FAI report page 6 item 7.1, it's recommended that consideration should be given to actually building safe routes between safe viewing zones.
What is even worse, is that some spectators refuse to move. Look at Annexe 8 of the FAI report for examples of idiocy. In which case, the only option open to organisers is to stop the stage until it's safe. That's where the recommendations about verification, communications and enforcement come in.
From what I see, the FAI Report is very reasonable, the Sheriff displays a great understanding of the organisational and competitive side of the sport. He's been very praiseworthy of many, many rally volunteers.
I do see some additional cost resulting from the recommendation. But it could very well have said "rallying is too dangerous so let's stop it".
What is encouraging is that the Sheriff recognises the differences between forest spectating and closed-road spectating, Which bodes well for the future.
Indeed guys
RAC, we went to Radnor, parked up found the speccy area, was half hour before cars were due so we looked at each other and the map and thought! "Let's off road"
Walked through the forest on foot rather than on stage, found several spots.
Stage was delayed so we kept going until we found a good spot high up on a bank. And some random guy picked us up in a Disco (initially concerning as he didn't look like a rally fan lol).
You have to simply look like you are not being a berk, and I would like to think because of what has happened, anyone trekking into forest stages there would do.
It is the events near to towns that attract the high heels, pram pushing brigade and their car mad fella that are the issue.
RAC, we went to Radnor, parked up found the speccy area, was half hour before cars were due so we looked at each other and the map and thought! "Let's off road"
Walked through the forest on foot rather than on stage, found several spots.
Stage was delayed so we kept going until we found a good spot high up on a bank. And some random guy picked us up in a Disco (initially concerning as he didn't look like a rally fan lol).
You have to simply look like you are not being a berk, and I would like to think because of what has happened, anyone trekking into forest stages there would do.
It is the events near to towns that attract the high heels, pram pushing brigade and their car mad fella that are the issue.
chunder27 said:
You have to simply look like you are not being a berk, and I would like to think because of what has happened, anyone trekking into forest stages there would do.
It is the events near to towns that attract the high heels, pram pushing brigade and their car mad fella that are the issue.
Great statement! That's definitely relevant for the Snowman and the Jim Clark. It is the events near to towns that attract the high heels, pram pushing brigade and their car mad fella that are the issue.
thepawbroon said:
chunder27 said:
You have to simply look like you are not being a berk, and I would like to think because of what has happened, anyone trekking into forest stages there would do.
It is the events near to towns that attract the high heels, pram pushing brigade and their car mad fella that are the issue.
Great statement! That's definitely relevant for the Snowman and the Jim Clark. It is the events near to towns that attract the high heels, pram pushing brigade and their car mad fella that are the issue.
thepawbroon said:
...It's worth referring to what the Grampian Forest Rally do for spectators - design and set up safe areas which are accessible without going on the stage route (other rallies do the same - commonly know as "pens"):
http://www.grampianstages.co.uk/spectator-info/whe...
Now that seems to be fully-compliant with most of the recommendations, and with correct advertising and a level of secrecy about the "non-spectator" stages, can be very effective.
Problems come from spectators going elsewhere - in the majority of cases the spectators who find out where the non-spec areas are, are the more experienced, responsible and rally-savvy type who will keep themselves and others safe.
Thanks http://www.grampianstages.co.uk/spectator-info/whe...
Now that seems to be fully-compliant with most of the recommendations, and with correct advertising and a level of secrecy about the "non-spectator" stages, can be very effective.
Problems come from spectators going elsewhere - in the majority of cases the spectators who find out where the non-spec areas are, are the more experienced, responsible and rally-savvy type who will keep themselves and others safe.
Yes, the spectator 'pens' are what rallies are expected to do now. Certainly from experience the Trackrod and Wyedean had designated spectator areas and no information about the rest. As you say, it's the knowledgable ones who know the previous routes and go in where they can.
The problem comes I think with single venue events.
They are often on private land or old airfields and are usually non spectator, meaning they don't advertise the event or make it open for rally fans. So, unless you are very local you are not likely to know the event is going on.
But since this ruling they have become unattendable really. ON a few I have been to you are penned into the service area and can only be there. Or sent to rather boring pen areas perhaps one per venue.
However the fact these events are not publicised and likely prevent most fans from going is a good thing, as who is likely to attend? People who have researched, looked for the event, maybe emailed the club. But, the club cant take the risk so just close it all down and make it obvious you are unwelcome.
Despite the fact you might be more knowledgeable than some of the marshals!!
It's a quandary it really is
They are often on private land or old airfields and are usually non spectator, meaning they don't advertise the event or make it open for rally fans. So, unless you are very local you are not likely to know the event is going on.
But since this ruling they have become unattendable really. ON a few I have been to you are penned into the service area and can only be there. Or sent to rather boring pen areas perhaps one per venue.
However the fact these events are not publicised and likely prevent most fans from going is a good thing, as who is likely to attend? People who have researched, looked for the event, maybe emailed the club. But, the club cant take the risk so just close it all down and make it obvious you are unwelcome.
Despite the fact you might be more knowledgeable than some of the marshals!!
It's a quandary it really is
The report is better than I expected really. I was anticipating the conclusion being that all rallying should be banned unless held on a race circuit.
The in-car picture at Annexe 8 is shocking. Mr Provan was an experienced rally spectator and anyone familiar with the JCR knows that stretch of road is notorious for accidents and near-accidents. Even in the unlikely event that he didn't know the history he was told he was in a dangerous place yet he stayed there, so close that there was no chance of getting out of the way. Utterly stupid.
Hopefully Scotland can sort out their own version of the English/Welsh closed road legislation and the JCR and Mull can return, even if it means a smaller format than before. And hopefully those affected who've not been involved in rallying since will one day feel they are able to return. The mental scars will never go away though
The in-car picture at Annexe 8 is shocking. Mr Provan was an experienced rally spectator and anyone familiar with the JCR knows that stretch of road is notorious for accidents and near-accidents. Even in the unlikely event that he didn't know the history he was told he was in a dangerous place yet he stayed there, so close that there was no chance of getting out of the way. Utterly stupid.
Hopefully Scotland can sort out their own version of the English/Welsh closed road legislation and the JCR and Mull can return, even if it means a smaller format than before. And hopefully those affected who've not been involved in rallying since will one day feel they are able to return. The mental scars will never go away though
chunder27 said:
Indeed guys
RAC, we went to Radnor, parked up found the speccy area, was half hour before cars were due so we looked at each other and the map and thought! "Let's off road"
Walked through the forest on foot rather than on stage, found several spots.
Stage was delayed so we kept going until we found a good spot high up on a bank. And some random guy picked us up in a Disco (initially concerning as he didn't look like a rally fan lol).
You have to simply look like you are not being a berk, and I would like to think because of what has happened, anyone trekking into forest stages there would do.
It is the events near to towns that attract the high heels, pram pushing brigade and their car mad fella that are the issue.
I always aim to get to a speccy car park at least about 2 hours before the '0' car. And, I've never had an issue walking on the stage to get to a decent spot; even RallyGB allows this, until the safety vehicles start, then they would like you to be in position.RAC, we went to Radnor, parked up found the speccy area, was half hour before cars were due so we looked at each other and the map and thought! "Let's off road"
Walked through the forest on foot rather than on stage, found several spots.
Stage was delayed so we kept going until we found a good spot high up on a bank. And some random guy picked us up in a Disco (initially concerning as he didn't look like a rally fan lol).
You have to simply look like you are not being a berk, and I would like to think because of what has happened, anyone trekking into forest stages there would do.
It is the events near to towns that attract the high heels, pram pushing brigade and their car mad fella that are the issue.
As for your other point; the Wyedean was infamous for this; not helped by photos in MNews the week after.....
Talking of Wyedean, heres a few phone clips I stuck together.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRUQJT-MK7Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRUQJT-MK7Y
I think the sad part about all this is that no real mention seems to be made about people simply being stupid and standing in stupid places.
Why can't people simply "be stupid" without ruining access for future generations?
I appreciate that every effort should be made to ensure people are not standing in daft places, but as others have said, once the safety cars have gone through, you are on your own as a spectator, unless you are near marshals, who are usually fine, but can often be as daft at times.
That is the frustrating part of this. One accident sounds simply unlucky, another is the result of people standing in a stupid, clearly dangerous place and just staying there.
And that for me, should mean some thought could perhaps be made to simply accept that some people are simply either too stupid or too arrogant to defend. Or account for.
Also, yes, MN did rallying no favours, though perhaps right to report it, I have been reporting at events in the past and not reported things that might cause my sport to come into harm.
Why can't people simply "be stupid" without ruining access for future generations?
I appreciate that every effort should be made to ensure people are not standing in daft places, but as others have said, once the safety cars have gone through, you are on your own as a spectator, unless you are near marshals, who are usually fine, but can often be as daft at times.
That is the frustrating part of this. One accident sounds simply unlucky, another is the result of people standing in a stupid, clearly dangerous place and just staying there.
And that for me, should mean some thought could perhaps be made to simply accept that some people are simply either too stupid or too arrogant to defend. Or account for.
Also, yes, MN did rallying no favours, though perhaps right to report it, I have been reporting at events in the past and not reported things that might cause my sport to come into harm.
chunder27 said:
I think the sad part about all this is that no real mention seems to be made about people simply being stupid and standing in stupid places.
It is mentioned quite a few times, for example page 127 (para 337) and page 141 (para 21 - below). It clearly states that at least one of the deceased was advised more than once that he was in a dangerous position, and he wilfully ignored that advice.
Bugger I didn't get that far!!
I think from reading that the Snowman incident was a result of a late arrival of a few people, the poor marshal asked for a brief halt and got it, but the car that caused it was already on the stage or had just started, but they did not need yellows.
JCR was a lot different, access anywhere, whereas on Snowman they were in a speccy area and it just got too full and the poor chap was trying to get people up the stage.
JCR seems a much harder event to marshal properly and to sign effectively. But it appears that piece of road was renowned for incidents and there had also been a severe incident earlier in the day with a car on a similar stage.
I think from reading that the Snowman incident was a result of a late arrival of a few people, the poor marshal asked for a brief halt and got it, but the car that caused it was already on the stage or had just started, but they did not need yellows.
JCR was a lot different, access anywhere, whereas on Snowman they were in a speccy area and it just got too full and the poor chap was trying to get people up the stage.
JCR seems a much harder event to marshal properly and to sign effectively. But it appears that piece of road was renowned for incidents and there had also been a severe incident earlier in the day with a car on a similar stage.
Anyone off to Blyton tomorrow?
http://www.clitheroedmc.co.uk/HallTrophy.htm
I will be heading down later to help with setup and looks like I will be doing the finish control,
http://www.clitheroedmc.co.uk/HallTrophy.htm
I will be heading down later to help with setup and looks like I will be doing the finish control,
Ogier and Evans confirmed as the main drivers at M-Sport next season. Great news!
https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/ogier-stays-ev...
https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/ogier-stays-ev...
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