Is it fair that a new "classic" car can race in historics.
Discussion
Say I want to continue racing in historics as I have for the last 30 years but my old war dog that I've used is now very valuable. So do I go and bite the bullet, thinking it only cost me £5k in 1968, and carry on racing it or do I sell it for £1m+ and buy a replica from the original manufacturer for £500k. To be fair to the fellow racers in my category I could still sell my car for £1m + and buy another 1960s car that isn't worth as much for £100k and still have my fun.
There are now many cars from the 50s, 60s etc that are now being turned out as new cars they really should have their own series.
I personally don't think a car totally manufactured in 2016 should be racing against genuine 1960s cars
There are now many cars from the 50s, 60s etc that are now being turned out as new cars they really should have their own series.
I personally don't think a car totally manufactured in 2016 should be racing against genuine 1960s cars
I didn't get to Goodwood this weekend but it would be interesting to know in all of the races the age of the cars in the first ten in each race. When I say age, was it built in the last five years or more than thirty years ago. Not was it built last year to a spec of thirty years ago because although the theory is that everything is the same the reality is the older one is more stressed.
Edited by Swede123 on Monday 20th March 19:31
As long as it is to the same general spec as the "original" cars it is racing about - I don't see a problem.
It needs to be remembered that the original cars, even if faithfully looked after for upwards to 100 years these days, will have many new components to them - along with modern tyres, brake disks and oils.
It needs to be remembered that the original cars, even if faithfully looked after for upwards to 100 years these days, will have many new components to them - along with modern tyres, brake disks and oils.
The vast majority of historic race cars are like triggers broom. Even in period they were, for example when you bent a March F1 tub you used to send your tub to the factory and they would give you another in exchange, your bent tub would then be repaired and that would be swapped with the next one to get bumped.
That's how you can end up with multiple cars legitimately claiming to be a particular identity, when the record books say there was only one chassis 6, yet the factory may have used 3 tubs for that chassis number in the year it was used, and the original number 6 tub ended its life with number 25 chassis plate.
When you restore a historic race car, you have to take a practical view on what you can use and what you have to replace. For example you wouldn't dream of using any of the original suspension components from a 1970's F1 car because of internal corrosion you cant see and metal fatigue, but if the tub is in good condition you could use that as the basis of the car if it wasn't too tired. You can then decide on using the tub as you received it, doing localised repairs where it needs attention, or completely stripping it down to the last rivet, inspecting all internal bulkheads for cracks and then rebuilding it with new solid rivets and glue. If you find the tub is damaged badly or beyond repair you would make an exact copy of it from new materials.
What you would then do is make jigs and drawings from the original suspension components and manufacture new items to the original spec.
A good example of the above was when I was involved in the restoration of a 1976 F1 car, that chassis was used in 1976 as a race car and then became a test car for 1977, it then lived the rest of its life in a museum. So it looked pretty good on first impression but had done a lot of miles in its service life. To get that back out racing safely the tub was stripped down to its bare sheet panels, all the bulkheads were crack tested which showed the load bearing bulkhead for the steering rack and brake pedal assembly was cracked, as were the seat belt mount bulkheads. Those broken parts were replicated in new material and then the tub was rebuilt using all the original panels. A new roll hoop was made that was also structural for the rear of the chassis. You then took a view component by component on what had to be replaced and what could be retained. The wheels needed replacing so patterns were taken off the originals and new magnesium wheels were cast. Same story for the uprights, you used the originals to make patterns then recast them new. All the body panels were starting to delaminate due to aging, so you took moulds off the panels and remade new, using the same materials and techniques. Fuel cells were obviously replaced, fresh engine build, gearbox casings all crack tested and so on.
For the safety of the driver and everyone else, you cant always use what was original, but you should be making the parts so they are a replica of the original, the FIA offers you guidance on what modern materials are acceptable because some of the old standards don't exist anymore. On an old steel tube chassis its very easy for internal corrosion to be hidden and for cracks to be hiding, you have to replace those corroded tubes and sometimes you have to make a new chassis if the condition is too bad. This is especially the case on cars that use the chassis tubes to pass the cooling fluids through. So long as you are using the original techniques on the build and doing a like for like copy, that's acceptable.
What you don't want to see is worn out cars racing, that's not how they raced in period and its not safe either. You also don't want to see new cars built that don't meet the original design. What you should be seeing is cars built to the original spec, being raced hard. That by its very nature means you have to repair and replace components as and when required.
This is what the FIA guidance is on issuing an Historic Technical Passport, which is required for the car if you wish to compete in Historic FIA races and is used by most of the race series that cater for these cars.
"International historic motor sport competition is governed by Appendix K of the Federation Internationale de Automobile (FIA) International Sporting Code (ISC).
Each car which competes in International historic motor sport must be in possession of a valid FIA Historic Technical Passport (HTP).
The HTP is essentially a sporting document and says nothing about the authenticity, provenance, origins, etc, of a car. It is concerned only that the car’s specification is that of the particular model it purports to be, the whole purpose of the HTP is to try to ensure that cars accord with the authentic specification and can therefore compete with one another fairly.
This HTP must refer to a historic period in the life of the car/model considered (a “snapshot”). This is not necessarily the point of original manufacture. Period Specification is defined as corresponding to the configuration of the model, proven to the satisfaction of the FIA to have existed in the period in which it is classified (Art. 3.3.1 of FIA Appendix K).
Whether the car is wholly original, partly original, assembled wholly or partly out of period components or a copy or replica built recently is not relevant to the issuing of an HTP. The prime criteria to be granted an HTP is that the car represents a provable specification and type that competed internationally in period."
That's how you can end up with multiple cars legitimately claiming to be a particular identity, when the record books say there was only one chassis 6, yet the factory may have used 3 tubs for that chassis number in the year it was used, and the original number 6 tub ended its life with number 25 chassis plate.
When you restore a historic race car, you have to take a practical view on what you can use and what you have to replace. For example you wouldn't dream of using any of the original suspension components from a 1970's F1 car because of internal corrosion you cant see and metal fatigue, but if the tub is in good condition you could use that as the basis of the car if it wasn't too tired. You can then decide on using the tub as you received it, doing localised repairs where it needs attention, or completely stripping it down to the last rivet, inspecting all internal bulkheads for cracks and then rebuilding it with new solid rivets and glue. If you find the tub is damaged badly or beyond repair you would make an exact copy of it from new materials.
What you would then do is make jigs and drawings from the original suspension components and manufacture new items to the original spec.
A good example of the above was when I was involved in the restoration of a 1976 F1 car, that chassis was used in 1976 as a race car and then became a test car for 1977, it then lived the rest of its life in a museum. So it looked pretty good on first impression but had done a lot of miles in its service life. To get that back out racing safely the tub was stripped down to its bare sheet panels, all the bulkheads were crack tested which showed the load bearing bulkhead for the steering rack and brake pedal assembly was cracked, as were the seat belt mount bulkheads. Those broken parts were replicated in new material and then the tub was rebuilt using all the original panels. A new roll hoop was made that was also structural for the rear of the chassis. You then took a view component by component on what had to be replaced and what could be retained. The wheels needed replacing so patterns were taken off the originals and new magnesium wheels were cast. Same story for the uprights, you used the originals to make patterns then recast them new. All the body panels were starting to delaminate due to aging, so you took moulds off the panels and remade new, using the same materials and techniques. Fuel cells were obviously replaced, fresh engine build, gearbox casings all crack tested and so on.
For the safety of the driver and everyone else, you cant always use what was original, but you should be making the parts so they are a replica of the original, the FIA offers you guidance on what modern materials are acceptable because some of the old standards don't exist anymore. On an old steel tube chassis its very easy for internal corrosion to be hidden and for cracks to be hiding, you have to replace those corroded tubes and sometimes you have to make a new chassis if the condition is too bad. This is especially the case on cars that use the chassis tubes to pass the cooling fluids through. So long as you are using the original techniques on the build and doing a like for like copy, that's acceptable.
What you don't want to see is worn out cars racing, that's not how they raced in period and its not safe either. You also don't want to see new cars built that don't meet the original design. What you should be seeing is cars built to the original spec, being raced hard. That by its very nature means you have to repair and replace components as and when required.
This is what the FIA guidance is on issuing an Historic Technical Passport, which is required for the car if you wish to compete in Historic FIA races and is used by most of the race series that cater for these cars.
"International historic motor sport competition is governed by Appendix K of the Federation Internationale de Automobile (FIA) International Sporting Code (ISC).
Each car which competes in International historic motor sport must be in possession of a valid FIA Historic Technical Passport (HTP).
The HTP is essentially a sporting document and says nothing about the authenticity, provenance, origins, etc, of a car. It is concerned only that the car’s specification is that of the particular model it purports to be, the whole purpose of the HTP is to try to ensure that cars accord with the authentic specification and can therefore compete with one another fairly.
This HTP must refer to a historic period in the life of the car/model considered (a “snapshot”). This is not necessarily the point of original manufacture. Period Specification is defined as corresponding to the configuration of the model, proven to the satisfaction of the FIA to have existed in the period in which it is classified (Art. 3.3.1 of FIA Appendix K).
Whether the car is wholly original, partly original, assembled wholly or partly out of period components or a copy or replica built recently is not relevant to the issuing of an HTP. The prime criteria to be granted an HTP is that the car represents a provable specification and type that competed internationally in period."
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff