The Italian GP Thread
Discussion
Oh dear. The Conspiracy Theorists are going to have a field day with Alonso's demotion of 5 places in qualifying despite the stewards conceding that he only inadvertantly held up Massa.
See www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=37287
See www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=37287
(Jon - my posting overlapped with yours, so I'll move the thread here.)
Excerpts from Autosport report:
Symonds furious with Alonso penalty
By Jonathan Noble Saturday, September 9th 2006, 19:12 GMT
Formula One has become too 'politically correct' and the stewards are making inconsistent judgements, a furious Pat Symonds said this evening following the decision to penalise Fernando Alonso and demote him to 10th place on the grid.
The Spaniard had his three fastest laps of the final session in qualifying removed by the stewards, who said he had impeded Ferrari's Felipe Massa in the session today. As a result, Alonso has been demoted from fifth to 10th.
Yet Renault's director of engineering Symonds firmly believes Alonso did not impede the Brazilian, and in fact helped him gain time by getting a tow from the Renault car.
"I don't understand the penalty, because we don't feel we impeded him," Symonds said. "This is a circuit where we are always trying to get a tow - especially in qualifying. Massa was 100 metres behind Alonso, so he got a nice tow, and I don't see it as a hindrance.
"I looked at Ferrari's telemetry, and [Massa] gained time on the back straight and was quicker into Parabolica than before. He lifted in the middle of the corner. To me, it looked like a mistake but he claimed he was losing downforce."
But Symonds was particularly vocal about the influx of penalties handed out this season for blocking in qualifying, and warned that Formula One is stepping away from its core appeal as a racing series.
"It seems that we have forgotten what qualifying was like up until 2003, when half the field complained of traffic," the Briton said. "We seem to have forgotten what racing is about.
"We are so politically correct now, and I don't know what is coming next. Maybe indicators, to see whether drivers want to go left or right?"
He further criticised the stewards' inconsistency, claiming rivals Ferrari have been getting away unpunished with similar infringements.
"It's difficult to fight like this," he stated, "when you see Ferrari changing direction as many times as they wanted before the first corner in Turkey and nothing happens, and then we get penalised like this."
No matter how cynical one has become about the favouritism that Ferrari appear consistently to enjoy, they never fail to stoop to an even lower level.
Do these people have no shame at all? (rhetorical question to which we all know the answer)
It's become a complete farce.
Excerpts from Autosport report:
Symonds furious with Alonso penalty
By Jonathan Noble Saturday, September 9th 2006, 19:12 GMT
Formula One has become too 'politically correct' and the stewards are making inconsistent judgements, a furious Pat Symonds said this evening following the decision to penalise Fernando Alonso and demote him to 10th place on the grid.
The Spaniard had his three fastest laps of the final session in qualifying removed by the stewards, who said he had impeded Ferrari's Felipe Massa in the session today. As a result, Alonso has been demoted from fifth to 10th.
Yet Renault's director of engineering Symonds firmly believes Alonso did not impede the Brazilian, and in fact helped him gain time by getting a tow from the Renault car.
"I don't understand the penalty, because we don't feel we impeded him," Symonds said. "This is a circuit where we are always trying to get a tow - especially in qualifying. Massa was 100 metres behind Alonso, so he got a nice tow, and I don't see it as a hindrance.
"I looked at Ferrari's telemetry, and [Massa] gained time on the back straight and was quicker into Parabolica than before. He lifted in the middle of the corner. To me, it looked like a mistake but he claimed he was losing downforce."
But Symonds was particularly vocal about the influx of penalties handed out this season for blocking in qualifying, and warned that Formula One is stepping away from its core appeal as a racing series.
"It seems that we have forgotten what qualifying was like up until 2003, when half the field complained of traffic," the Briton said. "We seem to have forgotten what racing is about.
"We are so politically correct now, and I don't know what is coming next. Maybe indicators, to see whether drivers want to go left or right?"
He further criticised the stewards' inconsistency, claiming rivals Ferrari have been getting away unpunished with similar infringements.
"It's difficult to fight like this," he stated, "when you see Ferrari changing direction as many times as they wanted before the first corner in Turkey and nothing happens, and then we get penalised like this."
No matter how cynical one has become about the favouritism that Ferrari appear consistently to enjoy, they never fail to stoop to an even lower level.
Do these people have no shame at all? (rhetorical question to which we all know the answer)
It's become a complete farce.
Odd really.
These are presumably some of the same stewards who ruled the mass dampers legal and where then overruled by their boss.
I wonder if he will overrule them this time ...
Sounds like Massa has been learning a lot from the German this year about gamesmanship. Wonder if Kimi will be up for the team politics next year?
These are presumably some of the same stewards who ruled the mass dampers legal and where then overruled by their boss.
I wonder if he will overrule them this time ...
Sounds like Massa has been learning a lot from the German this year about gamesmanship. Wonder if Kimi will be up for the team politics next year?
flemke said:
Symonds furious with Alonso penalty ...
Flemke, baby, I don't know why you whine about this so much - you need to see that there must be balance and harmony in the Universe - people just will not accept a Renault beating a Ferrari - it's just not right, and never will be!
If this was right at the end when he exited the pits and did his outlap in front of Massa it's an absolute joke. He came out of the pits at least 2-3 seconds in front of Massa and had to do a flying out lap to even have enough lime to do a timed qualy lap. There is no way he held up Massa. Massa was never close enough to him. Alonso managed to do an outlap I think only a few seconds slower than the time he eventually did, even accounting for the slow pit speed and exit up to speed I think he did a great job.
No conspiracy needed just basic mathematics : Monza + Italy + Ferrari + Schumacher = Alonso + penalty
Something stinks and I'm not talking about Baldricks trousers.
No conspiracy needed just basic mathematics : Monza + Italy + Ferrari + Schumacher = Alonso + penalty
Something stinks and I'm not talking about Baldricks trousers.
According to the FIA, this is blocking
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY-lKEt1QLM
Renault should pack up and go home in protest
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY-lKEt1QLM
Renault should pack up and go home in protest
911mot said:
According to the FIA, this is blocking
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY-lKEt1QLM
Renault should pack up and go home in protest
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY-lKEt1QLM
Renault should pack up and go home in protest
I know how Massa lost those 10ths, he made a mistake in Parabolica when he was on the rev limiter for too long.
Alonso is hardly visible, I doubt if he was even close enough to get a tow.
911mot said:
According to the FIA, this is blocking
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY-lKEt1QLM
Renault should pack up and go home in protest
But it was okay for Schumacher to force Alonso onto the grass at 200 mph along Hangar Straight. www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY-lKEt1QLM
Renault should pack up and go home in protest
The "blocking" to which the FIA really objects is doing anything, such as building a better car or having a better driver, that blocks Ferrari's path to the Championship.
911mot said:
According to the FIA, this is blocking
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY-lKEt1QLM
Renault should pack up and go home in protest
Ridiculous decision. www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY-lKEt1QLM
Renault should pack up and go home in protest
If that's blocking by Fonzo, Massa should be penalised for cutting track.
well suppose it frees up some time this afternoon to do garden work rather than watch the 'stewards show' - seems like focus of Ferrai race winning has moved from the pits to the race officials.
Sooner that the chinless wonder and half beared yeti bugger off the better - I continue to have more and more respect for Renault, decent guys (have spent a good few days with them over then last couple of years) with a decent desire to race...
Sooner that the chinless wonder and half beared yeti bugger off the better - I continue to have more and more respect for Renault, decent guys (have spent a good few days with them over then last couple of years) with a decent desire to race...
Jungles said:
911mot said:
According to the FIA, this is blocking
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY-lKEt1QLM
Renault should pack up and go home in protest
Ridiculous decision. www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY-lKEt1QLM
Renault should pack up and go home in protest
If that's blocking by Fonzo, Massa should be penalised for cutting track.
That's pathetic, I can barely see the Renault! Why does F1 do it's best to make the 'sport' unwatchable. :rant:
I was watching the incident with my youngest and said to him how Alonso was showing his inexperience as he was giving Massa a tow.
This is, however, Italy and it has become accepted over the years that Ferrari will be favoured just to get the gates up. This, though, is extreme and inexcusable. To my immense irritation, I was volunteered (it's now accepted as a transative verb) to perform a sort of taxi service early this afternoon. No matter how I tried I could not fiddle it so that I could see all the race. Now, it just doesn't seem so important.
It is becoming farcical.
I'm told that the race stewards are starting a non-Ferrari sychophant club. It's looking for a chairman.
And a membership secretary. And accountant.
Oh, and members.
This is, however, Italy and it has become accepted over the years that Ferrari will be favoured just to get the gates up. This, though, is extreme and inexcusable. To my immense irritation, I was volunteered (it's now accepted as a transative verb) to perform a sort of taxi service early this afternoon. No matter how I tried I could not fiddle it so that I could see all the race. Now, it just doesn't seem so important.
It is becoming farcical.
I'm told that the race stewards are starting a non-Ferrari sychophant club. It's looking for a chairman.
And a membership secretary. And accountant.
Oh, and members.
Seems to me that Massa's hit the rev limiter approaching the braking zone into Parabolica, because he's got a tow from Alonso.
So he's going faster than he expected, gets his braking slightly wrong, has to drop an extra gear. The telemetry will show him braking more than on previous laps and entering the corner at a slower speed.
Absolutely not an attempt by Alonso to block him - entirely Massa's problem, both for underestimating the effect of the tow and for letting himself get caught behind a slightly slower car on his last attempt at a fast lap.
However to the terminally blinkered, like the stewards appear to be, the telemetry will support an argument to say that Alonso's presence affected Massa's attempt.
It's a racer's responsibility to pick his moment to go for a lap, and getting stuck behind a slower car on his flying lap has been one of the challenges of qualifying since racing began. Nothing's changed except the FIA's blatant desire to hand Schumacher another title on a plate. What is this - the F1 equivalent of a gold watch for long service on retirement?
Therefore, if there's no appeal and no reinstatement of the original grid positions, I think I've watched my last F1 race.
So he's going faster than he expected, gets his braking slightly wrong, has to drop an extra gear. The telemetry will show him braking more than on previous laps and entering the corner at a slower speed.
Absolutely not an attempt by Alonso to block him - entirely Massa's problem, both for underestimating the effect of the tow and for letting himself get caught behind a slightly slower car on his last attempt at a fast lap.
However to the terminally blinkered, like the stewards appear to be, the telemetry will support an argument to say that Alonso's presence affected Massa's attempt.
It's a racer's responsibility to pick his moment to go for a lap, and getting stuck behind a slower car on his flying lap has been one of the challenges of qualifying since racing began. Nothing's changed except the FIA's blatant desire to hand Schumacher another title on a plate. What is this - the F1 equivalent of a gold watch for long service on retirement?
Therefore, if there's no appeal and no reinstatement of the original grid positions, I think I've watched my last F1 race.
It's an unfathomable shame that such open favouritism and corruption is what we have come to expect from what is meant to be the most exciting and passionate motor sport on the planet. F1 has lost all its credibility as a spectator sport.
Still, I am drawn to the TV this afternoon as, like most of us on here, I am a complete motorsport junkie and will relentlessly cheer on the deserving underdogs.
Still, I am drawn to the TV this afternoon as, like most of us on here, I am a complete motorsport junkie and will relentlessly cheer on the deserving underdogs.
BBC Sport said:
Max Mosley, president of F1's governing body the FIA, said the stewards had no aternative but to punish Alonso.
But he added that the FIA could change the rules at the end of the season to avoid a repeat of this controversy: "If you have rules in a sport you have to apply them.
"At the end of the season what we are thinking very seriously about is saying we are only going to look at these questions if there is evidence of intent, which I don't think there was in this case."
So Mosley reckons that these contoversial decisions can be avoided by introducing the (highly subjective) element of intent into these cases. Madness: doing that will just allow even more opportunity to favour one competitor.
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motor
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