The Italian GP Thread
Discussion
Made no difference since he blew up anyway.
Alonso was lucky to make is way up the field after the start, just the other cars slipping up mainly in the pits. I only remember him overtaking Button on the track and the was as Button was comming out of the pits. Kubicia somehow managed 3rd even though he was slower than Alonso! Massa underachieved yet again, hes not a very good rear gunner - only stays with Michael when the Ferraris are clearly faster that everyone else.
Scumacher was dominant today despite a fast Raikkonen, Alsonso needed to run maximum revs to keep in the hunt.
Alonso was lucky to make is way up the field after the start, just the other cars slipping up mainly in the pits. I only remember him overtaking Button on the track and the was as Button was comming out of the pits. Kubicia somehow managed 3rd even though he was slower than Alonso! Massa underachieved yet again, hes not a very good rear gunner - only stays with Michael when the Ferraris are clearly faster that everyone else.
Scumacher was dominant today despite a fast Raikkonen, Alsonso needed to run maximum revs to keep in the hunt.
SamHH said:
So Mosley reckons that these contoversial decisions can be avoided by introducing the (highly subjective) element of intent into these cases.
That's a move towards clarification, such that it might be declared at the start of any season: It is the intent of the FIA and Formula One Marketing that Ferrari win.
GKP said:
It's got more and more like WWF than a sport.
That's an insult to the WWF. At least thier contests are "settled" in the ring and not by stewards decsions, lawsuits or pit strategy...
I dunno why you lot persevere with this shitty sport anyway. I went to Gurston Down hillclimb today and had an excellent day, watching real live motorsport, from 10ft away, in the sunshine. I didn't waste my afternoon sitting indoors watching that F1 shite.
Edited by corozin on Sunday 10th September 20:01
corozin said:
GKP said:
It's got more and more like WWF than a sport.
That's an insult to the WWF. At least thier contests are "settled" in the ring and not by stewards decsions, lawsuits or pit strategy...
I dunno why you lot persevere with this shitty sport anyway. I went to Gurston Down hillclimb today and had an excellent day, watching real live motorsport, from 10ft away, in the sunshine. I didn't waste my afternoon sitting indoors watching that F1 shite.
*Searches for cogent rejoinder*
*fails to find one*
corozin said:
I dunno why you lot persevere with this shitty sport anyway. I went to Gurston Down hillclimb today and had an excellent day, watching real live motorsport, from 10ft away, in the sunshine. I didn't waste my afternoon sitting indoors watching that F1 shite.
For me it's because I've developed level of interest in F1 that I don't have for any other form of motorsport. Much like people devotedly follow their football or rugby team however badly they play, I care about what happens in F1 and that's what keeps me watching it despite the fact that the action is pretty poor. When I watch MotoGP, GP2, F3, BSB or BTCC I enjoy watching the racing - it's usually much better than F1 - but I couldn't give a damn who wins.
I imagine it's the same for a lot of other people.
Huh?
SamHH said:
For me it's because I've developed level of interest in F1 that I don't have for any other form of motorsport. Much like people devotedly follow their football or rugby team however badly they play, I care about what happens in F1 and that's what keeps me watching it despite the fact that the action is pretty poor. When I watch MotoGP, GP2, F3, BSB or BTCC I enjoy watching the racing - it's usually much better than F1 - but I couldn't give a damn who wins.
I imagine it's the same for a lot of other people.
Yep - is for me. I've been following F1 for close to 20 years. I know who the drivers are, who the teams are, the circuits, the commentators (I remember Brundle and Blundell racing) and everything. That counts for a lot. I imagine it's the same for a lot of other people.
Sure, MotoGP is great if the lead changing every few seconds is your thing, and BTCC if bumper cars is your bag, but F1 has and will continue to have a special place in my heart regardless of how dire the racing itself is (sad, but true).
And as Sam says, it's no less understandable to follow a race series through thick and thin than it is for football or rugby supporters follwoing their team.
It seems an eon ago, but fwiw..
It's great to see Max being doorstepped (his face was a picture!), and great to see him on form. Of course he may not have supported the decision, but I agree that he defended it brilliantly. I think he used one of his favourite plays:
"We used data that will never be public domain, and would be meaningless to all but a handful of people, so you can't argue with us". Of course, the only non-partisan observers with recent relevant experience (Brundle, Blundell) thought the decision stank (Alonso posted a fastest sector time ffs!) but as Max could reply "hey, what can I say, we have the data, you're wrong, rules is rules".
Other plays that you may be familiar with are:
"All but one or two of the teams have managed to get along without using unobtainium, so we're going to outlaw it". This one works because teams and suppliers are loath to share intellectual property. Cunningly, even if they talk to one other team they still can't disprove the claim.
and if that one fails, there's always the trusty standby:
"on safety grounds, we're going to do what we want"
Great isn't it? Will we see a return to single car qualifying, for fear of hindering a car that may not yet be visible in your rear view mirrors? Never mind, places lost on the grid can always be made up by outbraking your opponent and cutting a chicane, because that's entirely legal
I don't think all decisions favour Ferrari (could I be in a minority of one?) but certainly think Ferrari are adept at forming and putting forward a case to the powers that be.
From the management perspective, it's important that the teams remain competitive with one another, and great if the championship is decided at the last race. And a bit like Wogan on the radio, as he gets the last song to merge seamlessly into the 8am pips, the most elegant way to manipulate the final result is to manipulate the previous tracks...
I'll stick my neck out and wonder whether, now that both championships are finely balanced, we can look forward to some races unsullied by interference...
WilliBetz
Joe911 said:
To be honest when Brundle interviewed Max on the grid - I thought Max defended their position well. His explanation seemed plausible (that Alonso's wake caused Massa problem in Parabolica).
It's great to see Max being doorstepped (his face was a picture!), and great to see him on form. Of course he may not have supported the decision, but I agree that he defended it brilliantly. I think he used one of his favourite plays:
"We used data that will never be public domain, and would be meaningless to all but a handful of people, so you can't argue with us". Of course, the only non-partisan observers with recent relevant experience (Brundle, Blundell) thought the decision stank (Alonso posted a fastest sector time ffs!) but as Max could reply "hey, what can I say, we have the data, you're wrong, rules is rules".
Other plays that you may be familiar with are:
"All but one or two of the teams have managed to get along without using unobtainium, so we're going to outlaw it". This one works because teams and suppliers are loath to share intellectual property. Cunningly, even if they talk to one other team they still can't disprove the claim.
and if that one fails, there's always the trusty standby:
"on safety grounds, we're going to do what we want"
Joe911 said:
However - if they interpret the rules that strictly - then I cannot believe that this does not happen pretty much in every qualifying session for every race.
Great isn't it? Will we see a return to single car qualifying, for fear of hindering a car that may not yet be visible in your rear view mirrors? Never mind, places lost on the grid can always be made up by outbraking your opponent and cutting a chicane, because that's entirely legal
Joe911 said:
So of course that begs the question - why are they applying the rules so strictly this time? (maybe in fact, Ferrari are the first ones to have complained about this, sa far)
I don't think all decisions favour Ferrari (could I be in a minority of one?) but certainly think Ferrari are adept at forming and putting forward a case to the powers that be.
From the management perspective, it's important that the teams remain competitive with one another, and great if the championship is decided at the last race. And a bit like Wogan on the radio, as he gets the last song to merge seamlessly into the 8am pips, the most elegant way to manipulate the final result is to manipulate the previous tracks...
I'll stick my neck out and wonder whether, now that both championships are finely balanced, we can look forward to some races unsullied by interference...
WilliBetz
Edited by willibetz on Monday 11th September 09:51
The decision made on Renault, and Fernando Alonso was completely wrong on Sunday. And I am amazed that FIA even come to that conclusion. Some question need to be asked. It just wrong.
Interesting.
"Briatore compared his claims about race and championship-fixing in Formula One with the scandal surrounding Italian football in which Juventus, like Ferrari owned by Fiat."
Edited by waynepixel on Monday 11th September 09:49
Interesting.
"Briatore compared his claims about race and championship-fixing in Formula One with the scandal surrounding Italian football in which Juventus, like Ferrari owned by Fiat."
Edited by waynepixel on Monday 11th September 09:59
waynepixel said:
Interesting.
"Briatore compared his claims about race and championship-fixing in Formula One with the scandal surrounding Italian football in which Juventus, like Ferrari owned by Fiat."
"Briatore compared his claims about race and championship-fixing in Formula One with the scandal surrounding Italian football in which Juventus, like Ferrari owned by Fiat."
Very interesting coming from an Italian Mr. Fixit ...
Now what would be fun could be Schumacher, M, in his new Ferrari role, taking over from Max at the FIA and Briatore, F with his business connections inheriting the Ecclestone, B role in running the "sport".
Were that to happen we could all forget the racing and enjoy the off track shenanigans instead. Almost certain to be much more entertaining.
willibetz said:
It's great to see Max being doorstepped (his face was a picture!), and great to see him on form. Of course he may not have supported the decision, but I agree that he defended it brilliantly. I think he used one of his favourite plays:
"We used data that will never be public domain, and would be meaningless to all but a handful of people, so you can't argue with us". Of course, the only non-partisan observers with recent relevant experience (Brundle, Blundell) thought the decision stank (Alonso posted a fastest sector time ffs!) but as Max could reply "hey, what can I say, we have the data, you're wrong, rules is rules".
Other plays that you may be familiar with are:
"All but one or two of the teams have managed to get along without using unobtainium, so we're going to outlaw it". This one works because teams and suppliers are loath to share intellectual property. Cunningly, even if they talk to one other team they still can't disprove the claim.
and if that one fails, there's always the trusty standby:
"on safety grounds, we're going to do what we want"
WilliBetz, "We used data that will never be public domain, and would be meaningless to all but a handful of people, so you can't argue with us". Of course, the only non-partisan observers with recent relevant experience (Brundle, Blundell) thought the decision stank (Alonso posted a fastest sector time ffs!) but as Max could reply "hey, what can I say, we have the data, you're wrong, rules is rules".
Other plays that you may be familiar with are:
"All but one or two of the teams have managed to get along without using unobtainium, so we're going to outlaw it". This one works because teams and suppliers are loath to share intellectual property. Cunningly, even if they talk to one other team they still can't disprove the claim.
and if that one fails, there's always the trusty standby:
"on safety grounds, we're going to do what we want"
Would you really call it being "doorstepped" when the guy is swanning around in amongst dozens of cameras at the event (this was one of those rare ones that he attended) of which he is the chief regulator?
You will not have forgotten that Mosie's a barrister, and a barrister's mission in life is to make the most persuasive and compelling possible case on behalf of the cause of the moment, completely irrespective of the underlying truth and common decency.
willibetz said:
I don't think all decisions favour Ferrari (could I be in a minority of one?) but certainly think Ferrari are adept at forming and putting forward a case to the powers that be.
You're not in a minority of one. There are millions of people in Italy who agree with you. The population of the rest of the universe, however...
willibetz said:
From the management perspective, it's important that the teams remain competitive with one another, and great if the championship is decided at the last race. And a bit like Wogan on the radio, as he gets the last song to merge seamlessly into the 8am pips, the most elegant way to manipulate the final result is to manipulate the previous tracks...
Except that if Radio 2 were holding a competition for best new song, and one of the songs entered were truncated before it was finished in order to accomodate the pips and make for a "better show", we wouldn't consider that to be equal a fair competition. If F1 were like, say, NASCAR, in which there are rules (such as yellow-flag restarts that bunch the field back up and erase the leading gap) that are good for the show BUT are applied equally to all competitors, one would not mind.
The fact that the rulings that favour Ferrari are grossly disproportionate to what a normal distribution of outcomes would be suggests either favouritism or that they've got themselves a very good barrister.
flemke said:
Would you really call it being "doorstepped" when the guy is swanning around in amongst dozens of cameras at the event (this was one of those rare ones that he attended) of which he is the chief regulator?
Ok. Perhaps the term is too strong. But he didn't look too pleased, did he? And despite (seemingly) being nabbed for an interview that he didn't seek, and having to defend the indenfensible, he made a compelling case that would be plausible to many of his audience.
flemke said:
willibetz said:
I don't think all decisions favour Ferrari (could I be in a minority of one?) but certainly think Ferrari are adept at forming and putting forward a case to the powers that be.
You're not in a minority of one. There are millions of people in Italy who agree with you. The population of the rest of the universe, however...[Care to talk me through the events leading up to the Hungarian GP, then? The way I saw it, as an amused onlooker, Renault managed to equalise against Ferrari by having Alonso manoeuvre MSch into passing under a red flag (albeit an innocuous pass at very low speed). Hardly an offence on a par with Alonso's disgraceful prior antics, shurely?
I maintain the view that not all decisions favour Ferrari, but Ferrari (being competitive, clued up and clever) are very frequently protagonists in the decision making process.
WilliBetz
willibetz said:
Care to talk me through the events leading up to the Hungarian GP, then? The way I saw it, as an amused onlooker, Renault managed to equalise against Ferrari by having Alonso manoeuvre MSch into passing under a red flag (albeit an innocuous pass at very low speed). Hardly an offence on a par with Alonso's disgraceful prior antics, shurely?
I maintain the view that not all decisions favour Ferrari, but Ferrari (being competitive, clued up and clever) are very frequently protagonists in the decision making process.
WilliBetz
Overtaking under red is an absolute, unmistakable offence. I maintain the view that not all decisions favour Ferrari, but Ferrari (being competitive, clued up and clever) are very frequently protagonists in the decision making process.
WilliBetz
At the same event, one or possibly two offences (taking advantage of chicane against de la Rosa and Heidfeld) that fall in the grey area of requiring adjudication were decided in Ferrari's favour.
No one has ever said that, literally, every single decision favours Ferrari, but so many of them do!
Yes Ferrari are "competitive, clued up and clever", but are you saying that the folks at Renault, McLaren and Williams are not? Why should so many of the decisions go Ferrari's way and so few go to the others?
To cite but one of numerous possible examples, how can the mass damper be an moving aerodynamic device although it had already been allowed by the FIA for a year, but the rear wheel frisbees not be moving aerodynamic devices? How in hell does that make sense?
Cheers.
corozin said:
GKP said:
It's got more and more like WWF than a sport.
That's an insult to the WWF. At least thier contests are "settled" in the ring and not by stewards decsions, lawsuits or pit strategy...
I dunno why you lot persevere with this shitty sport anyway. I went to Gurston Down hillclimb today and had an excellent day, watching real live motorsport, from 10ft away, in the sunshine. I didn't waste my afternoon sitting indoors watching that F1 shite.
Edited by corozin on Sunday 10th September 20:01
I went one better and spent my day participating in real live motorsport and got home too tired to be arsed to stay up for the F1 highlights. Glad you enjoyed it - come and say hi next time, or better yet come and join in.
People complaining that the decisions always go Schumacher’s way seem to have short memories. Anyone remember in 94 when Schumacher was running away with the championship at the expense of Damon Hill? He was banned for three races for ignoring a black flag at the British GP – which in itself was given for the trivial offence of overtaking on the parade lap – and then disqualified from 1st place at the Belgian GP because his underfloor skid block showed excessive ware.
The former offence was a little known rule that had not been enforced for some years but hey-presto, when Schumacher seemed to be running away with the championship plus Hill was on pole at the British GP they decide to wheel it out and the slap on a three-race ban to boot.
Te FIA and its stewards taking controversial decisions is nothing new and it’s not always been in favor of Schumacher.
The former offence was a little known rule that had not been enforced for some years but hey-presto, when Schumacher seemed to be running away with the championship plus Hill was on pole at the British GP they decide to wheel it out and the slap on a three-race ban to boot.
Te FIA and its stewards taking controversial decisions is nothing new and it’s not always been in favor of Schumacher.
t1grm said:
People complaining that the decisions always go Schumacher’s way seem to have short memories. Anyone remember in 94 when Schumacher was running away with the championship at the expense of Damon Hill? He was banned for three races for ignoring a black flag at the British GP – which in itself was given for the trivial offence of overtaking on the parade lap – and then disqualified from 1st place at the Belgian GP because his underfloor skid block showed excessive ware.
The former offence was a little known rule that had not been enforced for some years but hey-presto, when Schumacher seemed to be running away with the championship plus Hill was on pole at the British GP they decide to wheel it out and the slap on a three-race ban to boot.
Te FIA and its stewards taking controversial decisions is nothing new and it’s not always been in favor of Schumacher.
The former offence was a little known rule that had not been enforced for some years but hey-presto, when Schumacher seemed to be running away with the championship plus Hill was on pole at the British GP they decide to wheel it out and the slap on a three-race ban to boot.
Te FIA and its stewards taking controversial decisions is nothing new and it’s not always been in favor of Schumacher.
[conspiracy_theory_mode_on]
He wasn't driving for Ferrari back then
[conspiracy_theory_mode_off]
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