Greatest Racing Driver

[SamHH]

flemke said:

Sam,

From previous page:


In the latest Autosport, Jackie Stewart has this to say about Schumacher's ranking amongst drivers:

I personally don't rate Michael with some of the great drivers of the past because I think he makes far too many mistakes and because he has this flaw we all know about - the Monaco thing in May, the Villeneuve thing at Jerez, the Hill thing at Adelaide...
For all that, though, he's had an absolutely magnificent career and his successes are statistically unmatched.

Oops, I missed that. The part about his "flaw" I agree with. The thing that sullies Schumacher's achievments is his unsporting behaviour, the Jerez incident being the worst that I can remember, and the fact that too often he goes unpunished. If anything rules him out from being 'the greatest', that must be it.

The part about his mistakes though I disagree with. It's unfair to condemn a driver, or to celebrate one, on the basis of what he might have done had he been competing at some other time. You can only judge someone on what they have actually done. In Schumacher's case, he's made numerous mistakes, but thanks to his exceptional skill, luck and the nature of F1 racing during his career those mistakes have not prevented him from winning many, many times. Saying that Schumacher couldn't have been successful in Grand Prix racing of old because he's too error prone is like saying Ascari would be no good in modern cars because he couldn't have coped with the g-forces or that Clark would not have been able to deal with the pressure from today's media and sponsors: possibly true, but irrelavent. I suppose that's the fun in debates like this though.

Edited by SamHH on Friday 15th September 12:07

[HiRich]

micky g said:

Statistics are funny things.......

The number of races, superiority of machinery / teams, reliability, quality of opposition etc. etc., all have a bearing on what the statistics can say.

For those reasons I don't think that Schueys 'records' speak for themselves.

Indeedy. I wish I could find the details, but if you include non-Championship F1 races, Clark's record is somewhere between Senna and Schumacher. Add in the Tasman series (F1 in all but name & engine size) and it's better still. Of course, non-championship races were less competitive - you might only be racing Ginther, Brabham, McLaren & Hill, no Stewart, no von Trips...

[jonnylayze]

heebeegeetee said:

GravelBen said:

The truly great drivers on the other hand would drive just as hard at the back of the pack with no apparent chance of winning, because they loved the drive and the race, not just the standing on the podium at the end.

[quote] Right. Then how come none of them did it for 16 years, if they loved the sport that much? When you have the backing of family, friends, sponsors and team behind you, you have a duty yo try to win. If you want to do it for fun you should do so with your own money and time. Which I guess Schumi does when he races karts during the winter

Graham Hill and Jack Brabham both had long GP careers - Hill ('58 -'75) - 176 starts from memory and Brabham drove in GPs from '55 until 1970. Both went through stages of uncompetitiveness during that time and Hill was never quite the same after his Watkins Glen shunt but both were racers to the end and Brabham could easily have won the championship in '70 if his luck at Monaco and Brands had held. He retired at the top of his game after winning 3 titles (one of which was in his own make of car) and was the greatest all round engineer/driver ever to take the grid.

Edited by jonnylayze on Friday 15th September 20:04

[dain bramaged]

it has got to be sir sterling moss obe by far the greatest driver there ever was back in the old days of racing with non existance brakes and skinny tyres with hardly any grip, a fire in the pits could wipe out a hole crew it was all down to driving skills you had to be realy good in those days to stay on top, in a recent interview he admited not strapping him self in to the earlyer cars he raced in as there was more chance of surviving being flung out of the car rather than have it land on your neck, noone has given more to the motor and race industry and even helped develop to make racing safer, he set the bar for what most racing drivers whated to be like, hence why he is sir sterling moss obe say his name with pride and be proud that your british

[flemke]

HiRich said:

micky g said:

Statistics are funny things.......

The number of races, superiority of machinery / teams, reliability, quality of opposition etc. etc., all have a bearing on what the statistics can say.

For those reasons I don't think that Schueys 'records' speak for themselves.

Indeedy. I wish I could find the details, but if you include non-Championship F1 races, Clark's record is somewhere between Senna and Schumacher. Add in the Tasman series (F1 in all but name & engine size) and it's better still. Of course, non-championship races were less competitive - you might only be racing Ginther, Brabham, McLaren & Hill, no Stewart, no von Trips...

Add in the Indy 500, for goodness sake!

Jimmy Clark would often compete in more races on a Saturday afternoon than Michael Schumacher will do in a month.

[jacobyte]

dain bramaged said:

it has got to be sir sterling moss obe by far the greatest driver there ever was back in the old days of racing with non existance brakes and skinny tyres with hardly any grip, a fire in the pits could wipe out a hole crew it was all down to driving skills you had to be realy good in those days to stay on top, in a recent interview he admited not strapping him self in to the earlyer cars he raced in as there was more chance of surviving being flung out of the car rather than have it land on your neck, noone has given more to the motor and race industry and even helped develop to make racing safer, he set the bar for what most racing drivers whated to be like, hence why he is sir sterling moss obe say his name with pride and be proud that your british

[Eric Mc]

Stirling - not "Sterling"

Moss didn't wear belts or harnesses not because he CHOSE not to wear them. He didn't wear them because they weren't fitted to the cars of his era.

Edited by Eric Mc on Saturday 16th September 08:44

[F.M]

I was always a big fan of Tony Pond...To me he could do no wrong...

[flemke]

Eric Mc said:

Moss didn't wear belts or harnesses not because he CHOSE not to wear them. He didn't wear them because they weren't fitted to the cars of his era.

At least give him credit for choosing to be British.

[Eric Mc]

I didn't think he had any alternative (although his mother's family is essentially a Scottish family - the Craufords) so he might have chosen to be Scottish rather than English, I suppose.

[mojocvh]

FourWheelDrift said:

A little picture intermission.

3 of the greatest from the 1960's.



Damon shouts at his father to make sure he beats Jim in the race this time.



Jochen Rindt tries a nifty new line in racing helmets



My all time favourite "Grand Prix" person, Francoise Hardy relaxing in Nino Barlini's Ferrari at Clermont Ferrand during shooting of John Frankenheimer's epic 1966 movie Grand Prix.

Thanks for those FWD (esp YOUNG Mr Hill LOL)

[CivPilot]

I think the whole subject of "who is the greatest" is a very personal thing. Everyone likes different drivers for different reasons and most of the top drivers in each arm of motorsport have a very good arguement in their favour of being "The greatest Driver" that non-fans would disagree with.


so with that in mind my personal choice would have to be Senna

This is for so many reasons that have already been covered on this (great) thread. The guy was a master of his age and due to his very persona of absolute commitment and level of car control that deffied belief at times he rightly deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Moss, Fangio, Clarke et all. Personally I rate him high than those names for personal reasons. I never got to watch those guys race, I never sat their open mouthed as they demolished their opponents with an air of unbeatable speed, I never got to listen them "control" a post race press conference in such a way that the interviewer never really got to ask any questions, he got given the answers to the questions that Ayrton wanted to answer, wether such questions had been asked or not.

I still remember clearly Donnington 93 without having to watch videos and it still sends a shiver down my spine. And the post race driver interviews where Aryton told how "we" could have lapped everyone but instead the slowed down slightly. I also have the added bonus of having met the man during his McLaren years and although it was just a 10second "Hello" and hand shake I came away with a lasting impression of a nice guy who made me as a fan feel that for those few seconds I had his total and undivided attention. It felt like he wanted to meet me.

Yes, his comitment level led him to do things that others would not in his "war" with Prost, but he had something special that I have not seen since in any driver. Add to that a level of carisma that could stop a room in its tracks. Was he the most successful? No. Was he unbeatable? No. Was he the cleanest to his rivals? No. Was he the "Greatest"? IMHO YES

I still have the tribute program that the BBC put out after he died recorded on VHS and it still to this day can bring a lump to my throat. Hearing the likes of Jackie Stewart and Sterling Moss talking about him in humbled tones has that effect.

I still rate Prost very high, but Senna had that "extra" level that made him truely special.

But for me one of the most lasting quotes about Senna came from Patrick Head (talking about the first races in the 94 season) after he had died.....

"We (Williams) were not on pole for the those races.... Ayrton was"

for me that kinda sums him up nicely.

[dain bramaged]

Eric Mc said:

Stirling - not "Sterling"

Moss didn't wear belts or harnesses not because he CHOSE not to wear them. He didn't wear them because they weren't fitted to the cars of his era.

Edited by Eric Mc on Saturday 16th September 08:44

if you say so, sorry for having a say on the matter, tt

[Freddie von Rost]

dain bramaged said:

Eric Mc said:

Stirling - not "Sterling"

Moss didn't wear belts or harnesses not because he CHOSE not to wear them. He didn't wear them because they weren't fitted to the cars of his era.

Edited by Eric Mc on Saturday 16th September 08:44

if you say so, sorry for having a say on the matter, tt

EMc - Less pedantry and more diplomacy might achieve better results.

db - Less bile and more wit might achieve better results.