Greatest Racing Driver
Discussion
SamHH said:
Podie said:
Marki said:
Senna took risks , Prost was very risk averse
thats why Senna was so fast in the wetNail on head. Prost was known as the "Professor" - for good reason. Senna, however, was just so much more entertaining to watch.
Oh, and he went to lamp Irvine... which is just funny.
I wasn't watching motorsport when Senna and Prost were around so I can't comment on the entertainment factor. Prost may have been risk averse but it was obviously a method that worked very well for him.
Sure Prosts way worked fine for him its just he could be boring in a way as he was so predictable , all i can say is that its a pity you missed Senna , he was very entertaining, Senna always had this intensity about his racing , like he could get away with manouvers no one else could by sheer skill.
Get some reviews of F1 from Sennas time and you will see what we (Senna lovers) are on about , as Podie i think mentioned Semnna at Donnigton in 93 it was so wet it was like a bad joke , i think Senna was lapping the back markers in something like 4 laps
Marki said:
as Podie i think mentioned Semnna at Donnigton in 93 it was so wet it was like a bad joke , i think Senna was lapping the back markers in something like 4 laps
I thought the following race, the Canadian, was Senna's finest first lap. It was dry but the chap just pulverised everyone else. Absolutely stunning.
Derek Smith said:
Marki said:
as Podie i think mentioned Semnna at Donnigton in 93 it was so wet it was like a bad joke , i think Senna was lapping the back markers in something like 4 laps
I thought the following race, the Canadian, was Senna's finest first lap. It was dry but the chap just pulverised everyone else. Absolutely stunning.
Not sure about the Canadian GP, but the European GP at Donnington in 93 is one of the moments in F1.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=K6KJt9zLfH
Edited by Podie on Monday 11th September 13:55
Podie said:
Or alternatively if you don't want to hear the duclit tones of Jonathan Ross and prefer the hysteria that was Murray Walker and the drawl of James Hunt I have it here - www.mercia.biz/PHVid/don93.wmv
Unfortuantely don't have the pass on Prost or the end of the lap but still has the good bits
FourWheelDrift said:
Podie said:
Or alternatively if you don't want to hear the duclit tones of Jonathan Ross and prefer the hysteria that was Murray Walker and the drawl of James Hunt I have it here - www.mercia.biz/PHVid/don93.wmv
Unfortuantely don't have the pass on Prost or the end of the lap but still has the good bits
nice one on getting rid of woss... 
To me why Senna will always be the greatest and Schumacher not...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1-29zS0iSC
Listen to Sennas words about Prost towards the end of the press conference.
Schumacher retired because he didnt want to take on Kimi IN EQUAL CARS.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1-29zS0iSC
Listen to Sennas words about Prost towards the end of the press conference.
Schumacher retired because he didnt want to take on Kimi IN EQUAL CARS.
I haven't had the priviledge of seeing the 'old masters' like Clark, Nuvaroli, Fangio etc in action, but of the driving I have seen, both Race and Rally, in person and on video, the one driver that has impressed me the most is Ari Vatanen. He always seems to just make the car dance, in a way nobody else does - There are so many examples, from the balletic elegance of sliding the rothmans Escorts around, to the pure balls of the Climb Dance run, where he's flat tack up a narrow gravel road with a 1000m drop, one hand shielding his eyes to try and see the road, and he doesn't even back off.
Also Rohrl, Toivonen, Kankunnen, and worthy of mention as well would be Stig Blomqvist ('84 world rally champ) - I read some stats on his career a while back, Can't remember the exact figures, but it was something like in 25 years of national and international level rallying, he's crashed out of rallies twice - thats absolutely incredible. Blomqvist was also probably the first to really master rallying in 4wd cars, and taught Walter Rohrl how to left-foot-brake. In recent years he's been running an 840bhp RS200 at pikes peak, and in the 1996 Rally of Great Britain he finished 3rd overall in a Skoda Felicia kitcar 1.6!
Also Rohrl, Toivonen, Kankunnen, and worthy of mention as well would be Stig Blomqvist ('84 world rally champ) - I read some stats on his career a while back, Can't remember the exact figures, but it was something like in 25 years of national and international level rallying, he's crashed out of rallies twice - thats absolutely incredible. Blomqvist was also probably the first to really master rallying in 4wd cars, and taught Walter Rohrl how to left-foot-brake. In recent years he's been running an 840bhp RS200 at pikes peak, and in the 1996 Rally of Great Britain he finished 3rd overall in a Skoda Felicia kitcar 1.6!
Edited by GravelBen on Monday 11th September 14:41
ferrisbueller said:
I lack the benefit of having watched Clark, Moss, Stewart, Fangio, Nuvolari etc. But if any of those were better than Ayrton Senna they must have been very special indeed.
They were. Read biographies on Clark, Fangio and Nuvolari. Then remember that an error in their days could wrap them round a tree (as a sidebar seek out Clark's lap of Oulton, with trees along the kerb).
Clark in particular was the "Natural" - his ability to make anything on wheels go faster on any surface than anyone else could is truly astonishing.
jacobyte said:
Senna, like Schumacher, was too unsporting even to be in the running.
Fangio by a country mile (followed by Nuvolari, Moss and Clark).
Fangio by a country mile (followed by Nuvolari, Moss and Clark).
Edited by jacobyte on Sunday 10th September 19:45
I agree on Senna and Schumacher. Schumacher is not even worthy of consideration because of the supremely calculating way in which he carried out his 'misdeeds'. Senna was willing to put his kneck on the line in order to achieve his aims in a way which Schumacher was not. Whether that is a positive quality or not, you have to admire Senna's commitment.
On the other hand, the talent of Moss, Nuvolari, Clark and Fangio was so titanic that they didn't need to use underhanded methods in order to achieve greatness.
In my opinion the mantle of greatest driver would fall to Moss and Nuvolari as equals who could beat anyone in anything. No one else in my view can be said to exist in the same league.
Fangio was Moss' equal in the mid 50s in a Grand Prix car but his performance in Sports Cars was less consistent and less convincing. What sets Nuvolari and Moss apart from Fangio is that when Fangio was at his peak (like Clark and Schumacher) he always had the best car whereas Nuvolari and Moss were able to rise above often mediocre machinery to make otherwise great drivers look ordinary.
While I would acknowledge that Moss and Nuvolari were the greatest, one of the things which made them great is that they raced for the sake of racing. That's a feature they share with my other racng heroes, Mike Hawthorn and Pedro Rodriguez - both of whom could out perform any other driver on the right day.
Oh and: - GravelBen - my experience of rallying is rather limited but I love watching old videos of Henri Toivonen - very sideways in a Lotus Sunbeam and the greatest driving I've ever seen live was Carlos Sainz in the '99 (I think)RAC where he drove at me through a gap in the banks, flicked the car the other way and was off in a 90mph shower of mud and gravel. he made everyone else - Burns, McRae and Makkinen look ordinary that day.
Edited by jonnylayze on Monday 11th September 18:32
HiRich said:
ferrisbueller said:
I lack the benefit of having watched Clark, Moss, Stewart, Fangio, Nuvolari etc. But if any of those were better than Ayrton Senna they must have been very special indeed.
They were. Read biographies on Clark, Fangio and Nuvolari. Then remember that an error in their days could wrap them round a tree (as a sidebar seek out Clark's lap of Oulton, with trees along the kerb).
Clark in particular was the "Natural" - his ability to make anything on wheels go faster on any surface than anyone else could is truly astonishing.
The time span is too great to draw any real conclusion. The cars driven by Fangio, Nuvolari and Clark bore no resemblence to the cars driven by Senna in the eighties and early nineties.
There is no doubt that each driver was the class of their respective era's in F1 and that's all that matters really, the rest is bar room conjecture, (Tyson, Ali, Marciano).
It's also personal, what a driver means to a spectator, the memories that they leave and the individual traits of each.
I admired Senna's intensity and skill, his total belief and passion. To watch Senna qualify at somewhere like Monaco was spine tingling.
Was he better than those great names above? Who knows, it doesn't matter, but he was the greatest for me.
We'll all prefer drivers of 'our era'.
People my age probably regard Senna as the greatest. I remember during Mansell's Williams dominance being one of a few applauding him at Silverstone, and being the only one at school who thought Senna to be better than Mansell. Sure enough he went on to prove me right.
Those are great memories for me, just thinking of Donnington 93 makes me smile, and 1st May makes me sad.
I'm trying to remember when Prost had his car sorted early on in qualifying, set a lap, then showered and changed into 'civvies'. Prost then sat very prominently on the pit wall and watched Senna trying to beat his time. Anyone help me with this???
People my age probably regard Senna as the greatest. I remember during Mansell's Williams dominance being one of a few applauding him at Silverstone, and being the only one at school who thought Senna to be better than Mansell. Sure enough he went on to prove me right.
Those are great memories for me, just thinking of Donnington 93 makes me smile, and 1st May makes me sad.
I'm trying to remember when Prost had his car sorted early on in qualifying, set a lap, then showered and changed into 'civvies'. Prost then sat very prominently on the pit wall and watched Senna trying to beat his time. Anyone help me with this???
SamHH said:
FourWheelDrift said:
Nope I'm 35 and I rate Moss, then Fangio.
How come you rate Moss higher than Fangio?
On the criteria given in the first post, "Not just in terms of World Championships but for all types of racing, for style, longevity, honour, courage and variety of racing wins."
Although Fangio won world titles Moss could win in any car he drove and although his accident cut short his GP career in 1962 he is still active today. Fangio had the Nurburgring win in 1957 as his greatest but Moss too achieved greatness twice in 1961 in an underpowered Cooper against the works Ferrari's both at the Nurburgring and at Monaco.
He covers all types of racing, longevity, honour, courage and variety of race wins. 1 in every 4 races he took part in he won.
Well if you're mentioning rally drivers. Timo Makinen, Tommi's dad was the absolute master.
Remember seeing him on a Welsh stage so slippery one had difficulty standing up. Timo came harry flatters down the track towards a 30 right over cattle grid. He kept his welly in, we were all convinced he was heading for the gatepost, then he braked on this ice, got the braking pressure, just right you could hear the wheels on the point of locking, flicked right into the cattle grid and waaaaaaaaah - waaaaaaaaah - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah away into the night, foot right in the bucket.
Remember seeing him on a Welsh stage so slippery one had difficulty standing up. Timo came harry flatters down the track towards a 30 right over cattle grid. He kept his welly in, we were all convinced he was heading for the gatepost, then he braked on this ice, got the braking pressure, just right you could hear the wheels on the point of locking, flicked right into the cattle grid and waaaaaaaaah - waaaaaaaaah - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah away into the night, foot right in the bucket.
FourWheelDrift said:
On the criteria given in the first post, "Not just in terms of World Championships but for all types of racing, for style, longevity, honour, courage and variety of racing wins."
Although Fangio won world titles Moss could win in any car he drove and although his accident cut short his GP career in 1962 he is still active today. Fangio had the Nurburgring win in 1957 as his greatest but Moss too achieved greatness twice in 1961 in an underpowered Cooper against the works Ferrari's both at the Nurburgring and at Monaco.
He covers all types of racing, longevity, honour, courage and variety of race wins. 1 in every 4 races he took part in he won.
Good points. I don't know an awful lot about either of those drivers, and maybe Fangio didn't have success in such a variety of formulae as Moss but for me Fangio's dominance in Grand Prix racing is enough to make him the greatest of his era. From what I've read about him he also seems to fit the criteria of longevity, honour and courage.
Edited by SamHH on Monday 11th September 21:54
Sebastian Loeb.
Failing that being accepted as not pure "racing". Fangio.
Interview with Fangio's team mate I remember.
Interviewer:
What was racing alongside Fangio like?
Fangio's Team mate (can't remember who it was)
Annoying, I was there for practice on Friday all day setting the car up put all the effort in, Fangio turned up Sunday with a girl on each arm and a half bottle of champagne, copied my car set up and lapped me half way through the race!
Failing that being accepted as not pure "racing". Fangio.
Interview with Fangio's team mate I remember.
Interviewer:
What was racing alongside Fangio like?
Fangio's Team mate (can't remember who it was)
Annoying, I was there for practice on Friday all day setting the car up put all the effort in, Fangio turned up Sunday with a girl on each arm and a half bottle of champagne, copied my car set up and lapped me half way through the race!
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