Greatest Racing Driver
Discussion
On the question of Seb Loeb, no doubt he is very very talented, very quick, very reliable and must have a fair degree of mechanical sympathy.
However if he were THAT good does one not think that he would have been able to develop the C4 into a WRC car. He couldn't. Yes the departure from WRC has been dressed up as all sorts of marketing bullspeak malarkey, but if they had been able to get the C$ anywhere near on the pace they would have continued.
That's my health warning on Loeb anyway, no disrespect to the dude as he is 20x quicker than I ever could have been.
However if he were THAT good does one not think that he would have been able to develop the C4 into a WRC car. He couldn't. Yes the departure from WRC has been dressed up as all sorts of marketing bullspeak malarkey, but if they had been able to get the C$ anywhere near on the pace they would have continued.
That's my health warning on Loeb anyway, no disrespect to the dude as he is 20x quicker than I ever could have been.
Flat in Fifth said:
However if he were THAT good does one not think that he would have been able to develop the C4 into a WRC car.
not really, look at fittipaldi and the copersucar debacle. great driver, tried to set up a team with a new car, car ws dire and even emmo couldnt get it going well. there is only a handful of drivers who can drive fast and develop a car, clark and schumacher are two who spring to mind...
pablo said:
Flat in Fifth said:
However if he were THAT good does one not think that he would have been able to develop the C4 into a WRC car.
not really, look at fittipaldi and the copersucar debacle. great driver, tried to set up a team with a new car, car ws dire and even emmo couldnt get it going well. there is only a handful of drivers who can drive fast and develop a car, clark and schumacher are two who spring to mind...
So you are agreeing with me that Loeb isn't one of the all time greats then, as in there are only a handful of drivers. Or did I not understand??
Eric Mc said:
I would argue that no drivers today can EVER be termed greatest. My argument is based on the fact that no modern drivers get the chance to demonstrate their skills across a broad spectrum of vehicles, events and series. All we can do in this "modern" era (which dates back to the mid 1970s really) is make comments based on their performances in the category of motor sports in which they participated.
For that reason, Senna, Schumacher, Mansell, Prost etc etc will nevr rate as highly as Clark, Fangio, Moss, Carraciolla and some others in the period 1900 to about 1970. Those drivers did get the chance to prove what theyu could do in sports cars, rallies, Formula 1, Formula 2, saloon cars and various other series.
And before you say it, I am barely old enough to remember Clark racing, let alone Moss or Fangio.
For that reason, Senna, Schumacher, Mansell, Prost etc etc will nevr rate as highly as Clark, Fangio, Moss, Carraciolla and some others in the period 1900 to about 1970. Those drivers did get the chance to prove what theyu could do in sports cars, rallies, Formula 1, Formula 2, saloon cars and various other series.
And before you say it, I am barely old enough to remember Clark racing, let alone Moss or Fangio.
That's a really good point Eric.
What about the end of season "Race Of Champions"? Isn't that usually won by a realatively unknown driver?
(as opposed to an F1 driver)
Here's a little thought.
whilst Scumsucker is statistically the "greatest" ask yourself this. How many times has he actually overtaken anyone on the track to win races?
How many times has he been overtaken, and by whom successfully?
For the greatest F1 driver - Clark, his ability to drive around broken things on the car (monaco - broken anti-rollbar, took a few laps to get used to it, then set fastest lap!)
Greatest all-rounder - close this one. Somewhere between Stirling Moss and Jim Clark. Denny Hulme has to be up there too.
The problem is comparing those that are here now, and those that have long since been lost.
When it comes to being a real racer, the ability to overtake, and stay ahead, not many come into that class now in F1. Alfonso does, Raikonnen is touch and go, Coulthard has done it in the past... JPM could do it, but F1 didn't suit his skills as overtaking in F1 today is done in the pit stops.
Good discussion.
Rob.
whilst Scumsucker is statistically the "greatest" ask yourself this. How many times has he actually overtaken anyone on the track to win races?
How many times has he been overtaken, and by whom successfully?
For the greatest F1 driver - Clark, his ability to drive around broken things on the car (monaco - broken anti-rollbar, took a few laps to get used to it, then set fastest lap!)
Greatest all-rounder - close this one. Somewhere between Stirling Moss and Jim Clark. Denny Hulme has to be up there too.
The problem is comparing those that are here now, and those that have long since been lost.
When it comes to being a real racer, the ability to overtake, and stay ahead, not many come into that class now in F1. Alfonso does, Raikonnen is touch and go, Coulthard has done it in the past... JPM could do it, but F1 didn't suit his skills as overtaking in F1 today is done in the pit stops.
Good discussion.
Rob.
ApexJimi said:
What about the end of season "Race Of Champions"? Isn't that usually won by a realatively unknown driver?
(as opposed to an F1 driver)
Mainly won by established rally drivers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_
SamHH said:
ApexJimi said:
What about the end of season "Race Of Champions"? Isn't that usually won by a realatively unknown driver?
(as opposed to an F1 driver)
Mainly won by established rally drivers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_
Up until 2004 it was a proper dirt/mud superspecial rally course on Gran Canaria so no wonder the Rally driver have had the upper hand Only for the last 2 Races have they moved indoors to Paris and a tarmac course, but still designed like a Rally Super Special (head to head). Then it's all square 1-1 for wins as Loeb (Rally driver) and Heikki Kovalainen (circuit driver) have won on the Paris track.
SamHH said:
ApexJimi said:
What about the end of season "Race Of Champions"? Isn't that usually won by a realatively unknown driver?
(as opposed to an F1 driver)
Mainly won by established rally drivers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_
yes, but thats mainly because it was originally a rallying event. Only when schumacher turned up, did everyone slse join in and it bacame the format it is today (which, by the way is a great night out in paris)
Im with Dennis Jenkinson on this one: Rally drivers cannot be "greatest". Why?
Well, when they were testing for the Mille Miglia in 1955, Moss and Jenks tried a headset. jents thought it went quite well, but Moss said he didnt hear a thing- he was concetrating too hard on driving too quickly, and his mind blocked out someone talking. Hence jenks dismissing all rally drivers as not driving quick enough!
thunderbelmont said:
Here's a little thought.
whilst Scumsucker is statistically the "greatest" ask yourself this. How many times has he actually overtaken anyone on the track to win races?
whilst Scumsucker is statistically the "greatest" ask yourself this. How many times has he actually overtaken anyone on the track to win races?
Actually I recall when Schumacher, not going to resort to name calling
was a relative newbie, the thing that made him stand out, to my eyes at least, was his overtaking ability which was in a different class to the rest of the field. Damon, for example, used to be waffling about with abortive attempts, Michael used to just sweep up and get by one one smooth manouevre. Yes he used to get it wrong with some foreful driving, but in those days I didn't see the cynicism that existed with Senna/Prost and sometimes happens today.
2p
FiF
Flat in Fifth said:
On the question of Seb Loeb, no doubt he is very very talented, very quick, very reliable and must have a fair degree of mechanical sympathy.
However if he were THAT good does one not think that he would have been able to develop the C4 into a WRC car. He couldn't. Yes the departure from WRC has been dressed up as all sorts of marketing bullspeak malarkey, but if they had been able to get the C$ anywhere near on the pace they would have continued.
That's my health warning on Loeb anyway, no disrespect to the dude as he is 20x quicker than I ever could have been.
However if he were THAT good does one not think that he would have been able to develop the C4 into a WRC car. He couldn't. Yes the departure from WRC has been dressed up as all sorts of marketing bullspeak malarkey, but if they had been able to get the C$ anywhere near on the pace they would have continued.
That's my health warning on Loeb anyway, no disrespect to the dude as he is 20x quicker than I ever could have been.
So are you saying that the reason Citroen withdrew for 2006 is because Sebastien Loeb was unable to develop the C4 into a winning car? That doesn't add up to me. Why didn't Citroen just get whoever developed the Xsara into such a good car to do the same with the C4? And what's changed to allow them to return to the WRC with the C4 next year?
thunderbelmont said:
Whilst Scumsucker is statistically the "greatest" ask yourself this. How many times has he actually overtaken anyone on the track to win races?
How many times has he been overtaken, and by whom successfully?
The problem is comparing those that are here now, and those that have long since been lost.
When it comes to being a real racer, the ability to overtake, and stay ahead, not many come into that class now in F1. Alfonso does, Raikonnen is touch and go, Coulthard has done it in the past... JPM could do it, but F1 didn't suit his skills as overtaking in F1 today is done in the pit stops.
Good discussion.
Rob.
How many times has he been overtaken, and by whom successfully?
The problem is comparing those that are here now, and those that have long since been lost.
When it comes to being a real racer, the ability to overtake, and stay ahead, not many come into that class now in F1. Alfonso does, Raikonnen is touch and go, Coulthard has done it in the past... JPM could do it, but F1 didn't suit his skills as overtaking in F1 today is done in the pit stops.
Good discussion.
Rob.
NB Great passers - Hakkinen Vs Scumsucker at 'Spa one lap after the CK had nearly killed him - 'nuff said.
PS JPM will get enough practice passing in the pitlane now he's in NASCAR.
To give some insite into Fangio there is a great account of his F1 race on Ben Lovejoys site
http://nurburgring.org.uk/fangio.html
And speaking of overtakes, Mansel going around the outside of the Ferarri, though I cannot remmeber which grand pix or which year, I have just seen the clip and it is very impressive.
I will never count Schumacher or Senna amongst the greatest because of their lack of sportsmanship, to be great you would not act like they did at times.
http://nurburgring.org.uk/fangio.html
And speaking of overtakes, Mansel going around the outside of the Ferarri, though I cannot remmeber which grand pix or which year, I have just seen the clip and it is very impressive.
I will never count Schumacher or Senna amongst the greatest because of their lack of sportsmanship, to be great you would not act like they did at times.
Edited by Dakkon on Wednesday 13th September 13:37
thunderbelmont said:
Here's a little thought.
whilst Scumsucker is statistically the "greatest" ask yourself this. How many times has he actually overtaken anyone on the track to win races?
How many times has he been overtaken, and by whom successfully?
For the greatest F1 driver - Clark, his ability to drive around broken things on the car (monaco - broken anti-rollbar, took a few laps to get used to it, then set fastest lap!)
Greatest all-rounder - close this one. Somewhere between Stirling Moss and Jim Clark. Denny Hulme has to be up there too.
The problem is comparing those that are here now, and those that have long since been lost.
When it comes to being a real racer, the ability to overtake, and stay ahead, not many come into that class now in F1. Alfonso does, Raikonnen is touch and go, Coulthard has done it in the past... JPM could do it, but F1 didn't suit his skills as overtaking in F1 today is done in the pit stops.
Good discussion.
Rob.
whilst Scumsucker is statistically the "greatest" ask yourself this. How many times has he actually overtaken anyone on the track to win races?
How many times has he been overtaken, and by whom successfully?
For the greatest F1 driver - Clark, his ability to drive around broken things on the car (monaco - broken anti-rollbar, took a few laps to get used to it, then set fastest lap!)
Greatest all-rounder - close this one. Somewhere between Stirling Moss and Jim Clark. Denny Hulme has to be up there too.
The problem is comparing those that are here now, and those that have long since been lost.
When it comes to being a real racer, the ability to overtake, and stay ahead, not many come into that class now in F1. Alfonso does, Raikonnen is touch and go, Coulthard has done it in the past... JPM could do it, but F1 didn't suit his skills as overtaking in F1 today is done in the pit stops.
Good discussion.
Rob.
I agree with Flat in Fifth; I think Schumacher is very good at overtaking, although I dislike the way he sometimes barges his opponents out of the way.
Anyway, why does it matter how often Schumacher has overtaken someone to win or how often he's been overtaken? Don't his 90 wins prove that, however he took them, he's an exceptionally good driver? Yes he often passes people through the pitstops but that's just the way modern F1 is and he's very good at taking advantage of it. If others had been able to win in the way he does, they would have done.
Edited by SamHH on Wednesday 13th September 13:48
Dakkon said:
And speaking of overtakes, Mansel going around the outside of the Ferarri, though I cannot remmeber which grand pix or which year, I have just seen the clip and it is very impressive.
Mexico 1990, Mansell passing Gerhard Berger's McLaren around the outside of the Peraltada corner, on the penulitmate lap.
Flat in Fifth said:
On the question of Seb Loeb, no doubt he is very very talented, very quick, very reliable and must have a fair degree of mechanical sympathy.
However if he were THAT good does one not think that he would have been able to develop the C4 into a WRC car. He couldn't. Yes the departure from WRC has been dressed up as all sorts of marketing bullspeak malarkey, but if they had been able to get the C$ anywhere near on the pace they would have continued.
That's my health warning on Loeb anyway, no disrespect to the dude as he is 20x quicker than I ever could have been.
However if he were THAT good does one not think that he would have been able to develop the C4 into a WRC car. He couldn't. Yes the departure from WRC has been dressed up as all sorts of marketing bullspeak malarkey, but if they had been able to get the C$ anywhere near on the pace they would have continued.
That's my health warning on Loeb anyway, no disrespect to the dude as he is 20x quicker than I ever could have been.
I have to agree, I don't consider Loeb to be one of the 'greats'. He is quick and consistent, but none of his driving has seemed that, well, inspiring. I think his driving style is extremely well-suited to current WRC cars, with their active diffs etc, but I have my doubts about how effective he would be in classic rally cars, or even the older 4wd machines.
In contrast with this you have the likes of Pasi Hagstrom, who while relativly unknown is the Subaru WRC test driver, and an instructor at Tommi Makinen's rally school. He's come down to NZ to drive a BDA Escort in the Otago Classic Rally the last few years, which is run together with a round of our national series. At the end of 2 days rallying, Hagstrom was 1st classic by a long way(ahead of the likes of Alex Fiorio in a 911RS, Jimmy McRae in a BDA), and also 5th overall in the rally. He finished 4 minutes behind our current NZ Champ in a grpN Impreza, who iirc finished top-10 or 15 overall in the NZ WRC round. Hagstrom's car was 25 years older, had 200cc less and no turbo, and 2 less driving wheels. Thats talent.
I think what makes me respect the 'legends' of rallying more than most of the current crop is not only the skill over incredibly different surfaces, the new drivers share that, but the way they developed and were right at the top from the RWD days, through the start of 4wd, GroupB, and into the modern groupA/N and WRC era. In any car, in any conditions, Vatanen, Rohrl, Blomqvist, etc would be right up there as some of the quickest ever IMO.
thunderbelmont said:
For the greatest F1 driver - Clark, his ability to drive around broken things on the car (monaco - broken anti-rollbar, took a few laps to get used to it, then set fastest lap!)
That was also his weakness. He unconciously adapted his style to whatever the car was doing in a couple of laps, and was a lousy test driver, as the car was always "fine".
As a Pro: I recall one teammate talking about testing with Clark. Clark would take the car out for 5 laps and set a time. The teammate climbed in and couldn't get within a second of Clark, and then spent all day sorting the car until he was close. Clark came back to the circuit, hopped in, and on the third lap had found another second. Frustrating once, but it was happening at every session.
As a Con: Legend has it that the Lotus mechanics had had enough, and deliberately gave him a s**tbox of a car - wheels pointing in four different directions, everything wrong. Five laps later, he's back in the pits. "How is it? Need anything changing?" "No, fine. Leave it as it is"
Flat in Fifth said:
John Surtees?
M Cycle World Champion and F1 Champion
M Cycle World Champion and F1 Champion
Well up there too, 7 times World Motobike Champion, 1956 500cc Champion, 1958 350cc Champion, 1958 500cc Champion, 1959 350cc Champion, 1959 500cc Champion, 1960 350cc Champion and 1960, 500cc Champion. And 1964 Formula One World Champion. He would and should have won the title again in 1966 for Ferrari had it not been for the in-fighting that caused him to leave and join Cooper. He could well have won in 1967 or 1968 if Honda had used what they were developing according to John himself when interviewed but he said they were more interested at that stage on their road cars and Mr Honda was coming to the end of his reign/command of the company. (Video is online somewhere, I've seen it but can't find it)
Sir John Surtees also ran his own Formula One team in the 1970's, trusted Mercedes & Auto Union pre-war car demonstrator at special events and still very hands on currently managing the British A1GP team.
And a nice little video to end - www.youtube.com/watch?v=emunaalXoAQ
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Wednesday 13th September 17:53
FourWheelDrift said:
Flat in Fifth said:
John Surtees?
M Cycle World Champion and F1 Champion
M Cycle World Champion and F1 Champion
Well up there too, 7 times World Motobike Champion, 1956 500cc Champion, 1958 350cc Champion, 1958 500cc Champion, 1959 350cc Champion, 1959 500cc Champion, 1960 350cc Champion and 1960, 500cc Champion. And 1964 Formula One World Champion. He would and should have won the title again in 1966 for Ferrari had it not been for the in-fighting that caused him to leave and join Cooper. He could well have won in 1967 or 1968 if Honda had used what they were developing according to John himself when interviewed but he said they were more interested at that stage on their road cars and Mr Honda was coming to the end of his reign/command of the company. (Video is online somewhere, I've seen it but can't find it)
Sir John Surtees also ran his own Formula One team in the 1970's, trusted Mercedes & Auto Union pre-war car demonstrator at special events and still very hands on currently managing the British A1GP team.
And a nice little video to end - www.youtube.com/watch?v=emunaalXoAQ
Flat in Fifth said:
On the question of Seb Loeb, no doubt he is very very talented, very quick, very reliable and must have a fair degree of mechanical sympathy.
However if he were THAT good does one not think that he would have been able to develop the C4 into a WRC car. He couldn't. Yes the departure from WRC has been dressed up as all sorts of marketing bullspeak malarkey, but if they had been able to get the C$ anywhere near on the pace they would have continued.
That's my health warning on Loeb anyway, no disrespect to the dude as he is 20x quicker than I ever could have been.
However if he were THAT good does one not think that he would have been able to develop the C4 into a WRC car. He couldn't. Yes the departure from WRC has been dressed up as all sorts of marketing bullspeak malarkey, but if they had been able to get the C$ anywhere near on the pace they would have continued.
That's my health warning on Loeb anyway, no disrespect to the dude as he is 20x quicker than I ever could have been.
With that in mind surely you have to consider Damon Hill. Some would say he was fundamental to the development of the Williams car 91-96 and who else could have got so close to winning with an arrows in 97 and then winning with Jordan 98 and finally in 99 developing the Jordan into a championship contender; albeit in the hands of his team mate.
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