Discussion
gopher said:
So what change in the regulations is required for all Grand Prix's to have this level of participation and excitement, not just the wet ones?
I think that in the dry, the conditions are perfectly predictable and so the "ideal" setup can be found, meaning the car performs well throughout the race and is predictable etc.
Because the teams have such limited wet running and because the track condition is constantly changing this means that the optimum setup for the whole race can't be found and that the drivers have to adapt to changing conditions. This means that different car and driver combinations are faster or slower during different parts of the race?
How to replicate this in the rest of the races?
I suppose banning telemetry would make it harder to get a setup but is somewhat unlikely.
However banning refueling would mean that different cars are slower or faster at different times (do you set your car up to be fast on full tanks or light?). If you combined this with no tyre changes and a slightly meagre (meager?) amount of fuel then fuel management (ie fewer revs to save fuel for later or more revs now and save fuel later) then you could introduce this element into dry races.
probably won't happen though... Remember that Max tells us pitstops are exciting!
Edited by D_Mike on Sunday 1st October 22:28
FourWheelDrift said:
More power, less grip. Simple.
Nail, head, hit.
Socking great slick tyres the size of giant haystacks - made of rock hard concrete.
Sorts out everything - cornering speeds, braking distances; both of which without allows unlimited engine capacity - what use is 2000 bhp if you can't get the power down or stop the damn thing, let alone get it around the corner.
Give us our power slides back
Great race, Come on Schumi!
Agreed Renault lost that with a couple of mistakes but Ferrari/MS made none, also reckon MS was cruising at the end, Alonso wasn't really in with a shout of catching unless more rain fell, but he has spent 20 laps thrashing the balls off that motor!
Also if Ferrari had backed Massa up and let Michael past like that would everyone have ignored it? Hmmm
Oh well, roll on Suzuka!
Agreed Renault lost that with a couple of mistakes but Ferrari/MS made none, also reckon MS was cruising at the end, Alonso wasn't really in with a shout of catching unless more rain fell, but he has spent 20 laps thrashing the balls off that motor!
Also if Ferrari had backed Massa up and let Michael past like that would everyone have ignored it? Hmmm
Oh well, roll on Suzuka!
Joe911 said:
caduceus said:
frazer guest said:
fantastic race. well worth getting up early for. dont know about you guys, but im rooting for schumi.
Ditto 
If that was exciting then I was watching the wrong channel!
Joe - if you didn't enjoy that race, then I think you just need to accept that F1 is not the spectator sport for you, and perhaps bumper cars aka BTCC would be more your thing - I'm pretty sure the vast majority of F1 fans will have enjoyed that race immensely
The reason that people resent Ferrari using team tactics is that they employ a driver who is contractually obliged not to beat his team mate. Renault don't - Alonso and Fisichella are equal and ALonso beats Fisi fair and square. If fisi was leading the championship Alonso would work for him.
Aside from that Renault don't constantly get preferential treatment (or at least what looks like it) from the governing body and don't have a driver that is a cheat.
Aside from that Renault don't constantly get preferential treatment (or at least what looks like it) from the governing body and don't have a driver that is a cheat.
D_Mike said:
The reason that people resent Ferrari using team tactics is that they employ a driver who is contractually obliged not to beat his team mate. Renault don't - Alonso and Fisichella are equal and ALonso beats Fisi fair and square. If fisi was leading the championship Alonso would work for him.
Aside from that Renault don't constantly get preferential treatment (or at least what looks like it) from the governing body and don't have a driver that is a cheat.
Aside from that Renault don't constantly get preferential treatment (or at least what looks like it) from the governing body and don't have a driver that is a cheat.
I seem to remember MS supporting Eddie Irvine during the year he was out injured for a number of races and couldn't possibly win. He didn't like it but who does? Also, Fisi almost took MS out - it would have been an accident but if it was the other way around how many would be saying it was intentional? Good race and I hope they're even on points with MS one race win ahead at the end of the season.
D_Mike said:
ferrari and schumacher didn;t create any feat at all today. Renault screwed up and Ferrari won becuase they had the second fastest car. There was no magnificent performance by Schumacher or anything.
You're joking, right? He managed to qualify 6th on tyres that clearly weren't up to any kind of decent time in comparison to the Michelins and made it so that he was in a position to capitalise on the screw-ups by Renault. That's great driving if you ask me.
D_Mike said:
ferrari and schumacher didn;t create any feat at all today. Renault screwed up and Ferrari won becuase they had the second fastest car. There was no magnificent performance by Schumacher or anything.
Not sure you can really say that. It wasn't a *magnificent* performance by Schumacher, I quite agree. But Renault only threw it away for Alonso wrt botched pit stop and tyre decisions. Fisi was still beaten in a faster car.
And, would Schumacher have still won had he not passed Alonso to keep Fisichella in check, or had he not pitted a lap earlier than Fisi, and then made sure he was in a position to pass him on his out lap, while his tyres were cold?
racylady said:
D_Mike said:
ferrari and schumacher didn;t create any feat at all today. Renault screwed up and Ferrari won becuase they had the second fastest car. There was no magnificent performance by Schumacher or anything.
You're joking, right? He managed to qualify 6th on tyres that clearly weren't up to any kind of decent time in comparison to the Michelins and made it so that he was in a position to capitalise on the screw-ups by Renault. That's great driving if you ask me.
Nope, I'd go along with D_Mike. While Allen was furiously spanking the monkey over the Ferrari performance, Brundle rightly pointed out that Renault only lost the race because of a wheel nut problem. That's all there is to it. MS drove pretty well and Brawn was on the ball watching Alonso's split times, but that's only to be expected, surely.
The positive thing, as Brundle also said, is that Renault and Michelin are back on top in terms of sheer pace, which they've been lacking since the mass damper FIAsco.
Surely Schumis task was to win by a small margin which is exactly what he did. By dangling a carrot to Alonso, Alonso thrashed his car for the last few laps, increasing his risk of accident and potentially weakening his engine, all for no additional reward.
Schumi didn't look anywhere near the limit at the end and may well have had a second or two in his pocket.
Schumi didn't look anywhere near the limit at the end and may well have had a second or two in his pocket.
You do have to wonder what a German in a red car has to do to get a little respect around here.
He managed to qualify 6th in conditions that didn't suit his car and tyre package anything like as well as the opposition.
He kept it on the road throughout when everyone else was binning it. Even Alonso dropped it a couple of times.
His intermediates were seconds per lap worse than the opposition. He didn't muller them though like the only other world champ out there.
He completely out raced Fisichella who's car is quicker in the dry and who's tyres give a wet weather advantage.
He actually overtook people on track.
He kept his tyres in one piece.
He absorbed the pressure from Alonso when required. Forcing him to stress the engine and risk an off.
He fended off two Renaults who were very much team playing when his tail gunner was at the back of the grid or out of the race.
He didn't take anyone out.
All in all not a bad days work. I know that these things are what a race driver does for a living but so do the others and none of them did it as well. You may not like the bloke but that was an impressively won race.
He managed to qualify 6th in conditions that didn't suit his car and tyre package anything like as well as the opposition.
He kept it on the road throughout when everyone else was binning it. Even Alonso dropped it a couple of times.
His intermediates were seconds per lap worse than the opposition. He didn't muller them though like the only other world champ out there.
He completely out raced Fisichella who's car is quicker in the dry and who's tyres give a wet weather advantage.
He actually overtook people on track.
He kept his tyres in one piece.
He absorbed the pressure from Alonso when required. Forcing him to stress the engine and risk an off.
He fended off two Renaults who were very much team playing when his tail gunner was at the back of the grid or out of the race.
He didn't take anyone out.
All in all not a bad days work. I know that these things are what a race driver does for a living but so do the others and none of them did it as well. You may not like the bloke but that was an impressively won race.
D_Mike said:
but all those things he did are standard things that you would expect anybody in the position he was in to do.
DOn't forget Raikonnen dropped out and he was very competitive too.
DOn't forget Raikonnen dropped out and he was very competitive too.
Yes, you're right. I see those sort of things all the time from all of the other drivers and teams..erm...
And yes, Raikkonen, on Michelins, was competitive. And then he retired. Again. What does that have to do with MS?
Rustybin, I reckon you and I must have been watching the same race, but the majority of others on this thread clearly were on a different channel entirely.
The Bridgestones were vastly inferor to the Michelins until the track dried sufficiently. The Cock's statement that "today I saw a Renault that was faster than a Ferrari in the dry"...we'll never know that. Which team had traded downforce for grip, banking on the race being drier than quali?...for me, it was impossible to detect that - didn't get a good enough view of the rear wings on any of the cars.
Alonso and Scumacher were the class of the field yesterday - both drove great races and showed awesome car control in extremely tricky conditions.
The Bridgestones were vastly inferor to the Michelins until the track dried sufficiently. The Cock's statement that "today I saw a Renault that was faster than a Ferrari in the dry"...we'll never know that. Which team had traded downforce for grip, banking on the race being drier than quali?...for me, it was impossible to detect that - didn't get a good enough view of the rear wings on any of the cars.
Alonso and Scumacher were the class of the field yesterday - both drove great races and showed awesome car control in extremely tricky conditions.
With the exception of Alonso, Fisi was dictating the pace of the cars in front and he was running with a lot more fuel. I would suggest that like for like a Bridgestone inter was seconds a lap different. This did seem to be borne out in qualifying, the accepted view of the teams and even that of Brundle who had been testing on them.
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