Donnington 4th November
Discussion
Thanks for that, Rob. I don't think I remember the car from Thunderloons but I certainly recall the yellow Manta in the picture on your site. There used to be one in stars and stripes livery too, didn't there? Raced against the likes of John Cleland and Vince Woodman's Carlton and Rod Birley's Sierra IIRC.
Sadly it seems that I was the only person supporting the V8's at Donington and Brands, so the race has been canned.
Me now grumpy.
A very big thank you for James for giving use a chance to race our lovely V8 animals.
Just a shame that nobody else feels the same way.
Grump grumble gnash gnash!
Rob.
Me now grumpy.
A very big thank you for James for giving use a chance to race our lovely V8 animals.
Just a shame that nobody else feels the same way.
Grump grumble gnash gnash!
Rob.
thunderbelmont said:
Sadly it seems that I was the only person supporting the V8's at Donington and Brands, so the race has been canned.
Me now grumpy.
A very big thank you for James for giving use a chance to race our lovely V8 animals.
Just a shame that nobody else feels the same way.
Grump grumble gnash gnash!
Rob.
Me now grumpy.
A very big thank you for James for giving use a chance to race our lovely V8 animals.
Just a shame that nobody else feels the same way.
Grump grumble gnash gnash!
Rob.
Rob - not strictly true. We had 4 TVRs committed to race at Donington, but we were all sitting on our entry fees until we had confirmation numbers. I have spoken to James and there is a possibility we could have our own race for 25-30 mins as part of the longer Britcar race. I am just gathering views from the other TVR guys on this at the moment - let me know if you are interested.
Kind regards
Andy
griff2be said:
thunderbelmont said:
Sadly it seems that I was the only person supporting the V8's at Donington and Brands, so the race has been canned.
Me now grumpy.
A very big thank you for James for giving use a chance to race our lovely V8 animals.
Just a shame that nobody else feels the same way.
Grump grumble gnash gnash!
Rob.
Me now grumpy.
A very big thank you for James for giving use a chance to race our lovely V8 animals.
Just a shame that nobody else feels the same way.
Grump grumble gnash gnash!
Rob.
Rob - not strictly true. We had 4 TVRs committed to race at Donington, but we were all sitting on our entry fees until we had confirmation numbers. I have spoken to James and there is a possibility we could have our own race for 25-30 mins as part of the longer Britcar race. I am just gathering views from the other TVR guys on this at the moment - let me know if you are interested.
Kind regards
Andy
Even though I've now made other plans for the weekend, I think it's a non-starter.
I don't think that running as a "race in a race" would be such a good idea, how would we end it? It would be confusing to the spectators, plus there are people who would be running in both races, had they gone ahead - ie: different fuel levels, running at "long race pace", not banzai sprint race.
What we really needed were commitments, even if it's a "yep, we'll be there", then James may have run the race.
It's sad, as it looks like next year is in serious doubt, and I have plans to build a new car.
Rob.
Its a real shame the V8 race has been binned. However, I always thought James was optimistic trying to run a different series for the cars. The Britcar grid is far from full and I think it would benefit from the V8 presence, both in terms of numbers and spectacle.
I guess the issue is fuel tankage. How difficult would it be to fit quick fill equipment to allow refuelling? I know its expensive but I am sure combining the grids is the right way to go. I realise better than most that getting the cars to run for 2 hours, irrespective of fuel, is the biggest challenge but I would love all the big cars to out together.
Is there any chance?
Cheers,
Richard.
I guess the issue is fuel tankage. How difficult would it be to fit quick fill equipment to allow refuelling? I know its expensive but I am sure combining the grids is the right way to go. I realise better than most that getting the cars to run for 2 hours, irrespective of fuel, is the biggest challenge but I would love all the big cars to out together.
Is there any chance?
Cheers,
Richard.
Hi Richard
I agree it would be great to see the big cars out together. I've said to James a couple of times that there must be a market for 'big cars' in a sprint race format, not just an endurance format.
At the moment if you have a 'Supercar' and you want to do sprint races then you are limited to the one marque series, clubbie racing, 15 mins qually, one 20 minute race sort of format....
...if you want to race with other 'Supercars' then its endurance or nothing.
Restricting to V8s I think was too narrow, although keeping sports prototypes like Radicals out I think is desireable.
The car I am building for next year will have a bigger fuel tank and dry breaks. However my ideal is still to do sprint races.
Endurance racing has many cost implications and challenges for us: radio system for the car and crew, a second dump churn, we'd need to double our pit crew and equip two of them with fireproofs, we'd really need centre lock hubs rather than the 5 wheel nuts per wheel, yet another set of wheels, power steering..... and last but not least, a second driver with the right experience, budget and whom we'd trust
These issues are no different for anyone else I guess.
I agree it would be great to see the big cars out together. I've said to James a couple of times that there must be a market for 'big cars' in a sprint race format, not just an endurance format.
At the moment if you have a 'Supercar' and you want to do sprint races then you are limited to the one marque series, clubbie racing, 15 mins qually, one 20 minute race sort of format....
...if you want to race with other 'Supercars' then its endurance or nothing.
Restricting to V8s I think was too narrow, although keeping sports prototypes like Radicals out I think is desireable.
The car I am building for next year will have a bigger fuel tank and dry breaks. However my ideal is still to do sprint races.
Endurance racing has many cost implications and challenges for us: radio system for the car and crew, a second dump churn, we'd need to double our pit crew and equip two of them with fireproofs, we'd really need centre lock hubs rather than the 5 wheel nuts per wheel, yet another set of wheels, power steering..... and last but not least, a second driver with the right experience, budget and whom we'd trust
These issues are no different for anyone else I guess.
You're certainly correct with respect to the costs! The two races at Donnington are going to use at least two sets of tyres and about 450 litres of fuel and that litle lot costs!!!!
For us, the longer races are a challenge (!!!) and the second driver brings along much needed cash as well as a more rounded social side. We are lucky as we are all great friends so there are no internal issues with "pay drivers".
I would be happy to do some shorter races but I think James needs to focus on what he has otherwise he will end up with nothing. The Porsche club ran two or three 1 hour races this year but unfortunately they were only open to Porsches. I wonder if they could be persuaded to "Open" the entry. I suppose it depends on the numbers but a few different makes would spice things up! Sounds like the old Intermarque championship before the AMOC ruined it!
Cheers,
Richard.
For us, the longer races are a challenge (!!!) and the second driver brings along much needed cash as well as a more rounded social side. We are lucky as we are all great friends so there are no internal issues with "pay drivers".
I would be happy to do some shorter races but I think James needs to focus on what he has otherwise he will end up with nothing. The Porsche club ran two or three 1 hour races this year but unfortunately they were only open to Porsches. I wonder if they could be persuaded to "Open" the entry. I suppose it depends on the numbers but a few different makes would spice things up! Sounds like the old Intermarque championship before the AMOC ruined it!
Cheers,
Richard.
935 said:
I would be happy to do some shorter races but I think James needs to focus on what he has otherwise he will end up with nothing.
I think that is the crux of it. James understandably won't introduce a series that undermines his new championships. He therefore needed to attract drivers from elsewhere and that's where I feel that a) V8 was too narrow a definition and b) more could have been done in terms of promotion outside of the EERC community. It all relied on word of mouth.
Hey ho.
We'll be doing some of the Dutch Schooooper Car Challenge next year. Although v similar to Britcar in terms of entries, the races are 45 mins or 60 mins long
935 said:
we will do the two UK rounds and maybe even venture across the channel once or twice
That's our plan too. Probably Spa (rude not to) and the biggest of their Netherlands meetings.
Its worth doing for the fantastic Dutch commentator on the TV coverage alone. Schoooper!
Edited by teamHOLDENracing on Friday 27th October 13:53
Now I've cooled down a bit....
One of the alleged gripes is the entry fees for the V8's.
I looked at doing a Dutch Supercar race, and would say that they are more expensive.
Since there are supposed to be "47" cars for next years 'now not going to happen' challenge, I thought things were looking up.
I am going to replace my existing tank with a proper cell with dry breaks, not just so I can do some of the shorter Britcar races, but because the existing tank is getting weak in a few places, and V8 vibration is probably going to finish it sooner rather than later.
Had I got dry break, the cost of the Britcar race would be beyond my current means, as I'd expect to use more fuel than your Porsche Richard, and eat two sets of rubber too. Plus I'm not sure whether it would last that long as I've never tested it for that long.
Opening up the V8's to other "engines" - not sure that's such a good idea. There is a 'market' there - the spectator comments were very very positive, but it's getting more than me, and our faithful friends with their TVR's. We need more V8 stars, the 'invisible' V8 BMW's that were supposed to be there, and similar. I thought Andy Rouse was bringing one of his SCV8's out? Plus the XV8R......
One thing that I have no doubt about - the "Winter Series" isn't everyone's cup of tea. There seems to be an aversion to racing beyond September in some people's books, and that will have kept some people away.
Perhaps we should gently lobby James to keep V8's alive for 2007 to build on his hard work this season.
Now we're "here", we should be able to put on races between April and September.
If the circuit' right, that also attracts people.
Brands GP, Silverstone Intl/GP, Spa, maybe Rockingham.......
He spoke of running the V8's on a separate bill, away from Britcar, which is another reason why our grid may be depleted - I'm sure our ranks would swell if there wasn't the worry of breaking the car in the V8 race, and not being able to repair it for the Britcar race.
Perhaps Dunlop could be persuaded to put us on the Great & British tour? Just so long as it doesn't clash with EERC/Britcar rounds - preferably two weeks gap being the closest they get....
Lots of things need to be discussed if we're going to make it happen again...
Perhaps we can have a big pow-wow at the Dinner & Dance? - who's going?
Rob.
One of the alleged gripes is the entry fees for the V8's.
I looked at doing a Dutch Supercar race, and would say that they are more expensive.
Since there are supposed to be "47" cars for next years 'now not going to happen' challenge, I thought things were looking up.
I am going to replace my existing tank with a proper cell with dry breaks, not just so I can do some of the shorter Britcar races, but because the existing tank is getting weak in a few places, and V8 vibration is probably going to finish it sooner rather than later.
Had I got dry break, the cost of the Britcar race would be beyond my current means, as I'd expect to use more fuel than your Porsche Richard, and eat two sets of rubber too. Plus I'm not sure whether it would last that long as I've never tested it for that long.
Opening up the V8's to other "engines" - not sure that's such a good idea. There is a 'market' there - the spectator comments were very very positive, but it's getting more than me, and our faithful friends with their TVR's. We need more V8 stars, the 'invisible' V8 BMW's that were supposed to be there, and similar. I thought Andy Rouse was bringing one of his SCV8's out? Plus the XV8R......
One thing that I have no doubt about - the "Winter Series" isn't everyone's cup of tea. There seems to be an aversion to racing beyond September in some people's books, and that will have kept some people away.
Perhaps we should gently lobby James to keep V8's alive for 2007 to build on his hard work this season.
Now we're "here", we should be able to put on races between April and September.
If the circuit' right, that also attracts people.
Brands GP, Silverstone Intl/GP, Spa, maybe Rockingham.......
He spoke of running the V8's on a separate bill, away from Britcar, which is another reason why our grid may be depleted - I'm sure our ranks would swell if there wasn't the worry of breaking the car in the V8 race, and not being able to repair it for the Britcar race.
Perhaps Dunlop could be persuaded to put us on the Great & British tour? Just so long as it doesn't clash with EERC/Britcar rounds - preferably two weeks gap being the closest they get....
Lots of things need to be discussed if we're going to make it happen again...
Perhaps we can have a big pow-wow at the Dinner & Dance? - who's going?
Rob.
Surely the real question to answer is: Are there 20 cars to fill the grid? If there are then the series should go ahead, if not then it can't. James has given us the framework to race and it seems to me that not enough people have taken up the challenge. Whilst James framework may be a little rickety at times at least he has tried. If Britcar struggles to find the grids I am pretty sure the V8's will be even worse.
I also agree with Rob about the difficulties in running a race within a race. It never works and I doubt if the MSA would allow it. I reckon the best way would be for the V8 cars to race with the Britcars for 2007, even if only in the shorter races, and then regroup for 2008. The whole EERC picture should be clearer by then and if the numbers are there I would hope they would take up the challenge.
What about opening it up to different engine configurations? Surely a V10 would be more than acceptable not to mention a flat 6 (or 12)!!!! How about just saying the engine swept volume should be more than 5 litres? I think the entry barriers should be as low as possible so that as many cars as possible are eligible whilst, of course, keeping to the original theme.
Over to you guys I think!
Cheers,
Richard.
I also agree with Rob about the difficulties in running a race within a race. It never works and I doubt if the MSA would allow it. I reckon the best way would be for the V8 cars to race with the Britcars for 2007, even if only in the shorter races, and then regroup for 2008. The whole EERC picture should be clearer by then and if the numbers are there I would hope they would take up the challenge.
What about opening it up to different engine configurations? Surely a V10 would be more than acceptable not to mention a flat 6 (or 12)!!!! How about just saying the engine swept volume should be more than 5 litres? I think the entry barriers should be as low as possible so that as many cars as possible are eligible whilst, of course, keeping to the original theme.
Over to you guys I think!
Cheers,
Richard.
935 said:
What about opening it up to different engine configurations? Surely a V10 would be more than acceptable not to mention a flat 6 (or 12)!!!! How about just saying the engine swept volume should be more than 5 litres? I think the entry barriers should be as low as possible so that as many cars as possible are eligible whilst, of course, keeping to the original theme
I agree. Any 'supercar' would do and the definition could be quite loose.
By the way, if you ban sub 5 litres then that stuffs the TVR Tuscans (4.5 litre)
Whoops, unintensional I promise! It should be a minimum of 4.48 litres(3.2 x 1.4 turbo equivilant!!!!!!) otherwise I can't play!!! I guess the difficulty is in the definition of "Supercar". I agree that it should be opened up to all the big bangers. I know of a few Cobras and other very special cars that may come out if it looked promising. The key for everyone is the size of the grids and these can only be improoved if the pool of cars available is large. James says he has 47 cars interested for next year. Excellent news but probably irrelevant. The issue is not the number of people who have indicated a passing interest but the number who REALLY want to do it. I have been around long enough to know there is a vast difference between these two!
All I can suggest is open up the regs and hassle everyone you know with a suitable car. With luck it may then happen. If you let in my car I will try to support as much as possible but I have to put Britcar first.
Good luck,
Richard.
All I can suggest is open up the regs and hassle everyone you know with a suitable car. With luck it may then happen. If you let in my car I will try to support as much as possible but I have to put Britcar first.
Good luck,
Richard.
teamHOLDENracing said:
I agree. Any 'supercar' would do and the definition could be quite loose.
By the way, if you ban sub 5 litres then that stuffs the TVR Tuscans (4.5 litre)
I know a man with a black & decker and a big drill bit!
Or fit a griff engine...or a chevy LS1/2/6/7(somebody stop me!)
Seriously though, perhaps setting it for Supercars with Vee engines of more than 4.5litre engines naturally aspirated, 3.5Litre forced.
James said that this year was always going to be formative, and next year be evolutionary.
Rob.
thunderbelmont said:
teamHOLDENracing said:
I agree. Any 'supercar' would do and the definition could be quite loose.
By the way, if you ban sub 5 litres then that stuffs the TVR Tuscans (4.5 litre)
I know a man with a black & decker and a big drill bit!
Or fit a griff engine...or a chevy LS1/2/6/7(somebody stop me!)
Seriously though, perhaps setting it for Supercars with Vee engines of more than 4.5litre engines naturally aspirated, 3.5Litre forced.
James said that this year was always going to be formative, and next year be evolutionary.
Rob.
Well actually we will be fitting an LSx to the new Sagaris for next year, but that's by the by.
I don't understand why you'd want to restrict entries, given there are too few currently. The term 'supercar' is subjective. Most people would accept that almost any car by certain marques would fit the bill: Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini. Most would probably agree that the quicker cars from TVR, Lotus, Marcos and Morgan also qualify. Then you have large engined saloon cars like the Aussie V8s, Joh Cross's V8 Focus. Add cars like Cobras, the old Eurocars, Thundersaloons.... there must be more I haven't thought of. There are also Moslers, Saleens, Ultimas etc... although when you add mid engined cars to the mix you are probably condemning the rest to coming second, unless you have a handicap system/restrictors.
To have a problem with one or two cars running away with a series first you have to get enough cars to get a series. So that last problem would be a nice one to have really! My exception to the rule would be Radicals and their ilk, as in my view they are simply too different.
James's numbers were always, in my opinion, flawed. He appeared to have compiled a list entries which in fact was a list of people with suitable cars, irrespective of whether they had expressed interest or not(let alone serious intent!!).
I still maintain that the series needs to be marketed beyond the EERC community - in Autosport, MN, on websites etc etc. At the moment you have to decipher the EERC website, and even then it is nigh on impossible to get much info about the V8s. We couldn't even find an entry form for the Donington race..... and subsequently learned that if we had raced with EERC before all we needed to do was send the money. In other words if you are already 'in the club' it is implicit that you know how it all works. If you aren't already involved then frankly it feels like quite hard work to get in. Lets face it, if you make it difficult (even if unintentionally) you aren't going to attract drivers.
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