BTCC

[egomeister]

havoc said:

tomtvr said:

I liked it in the late 90's where there were lots of teams and still proper saloons.

Volvo, Ford, Renault, Nissan, Honda, Vauxhall all battling it out. Now its just pretty boys driving hot hatches and theres only 2 manufacturers teams and only really 4 proper teams in the entire race!

And IMHO the new rules will only make it worse - all the changes will make it harder for a true 'independent' to field a competitive car, so the chances of a podium going to anyone outside of SEAT, Vauxhall, Team Dynamics/Halfords or WSR/Team RAC is negligible.

So this year is likely to get dully predictable, with yet more panel-bashing.

I think the change in rules is long overdue, in fact BTC regs should never have existed in the first place. With S2000 rules at least you can buy a competive car and race it, and if you do well move up to WTCC.

[MrKipling43]

^^ what he said!

[sosidge]

The BTCC had become a joke over the last few seasons.

When a private team with a car that is not even available in the UK can win back-to-back titles, while being chased by cars made by a company that hasn't existed for 2 years, you have to ask whether it deserves to be the "pinnacle" of saloon car racing in the UK.

Roll on the new regs.

[havoc]

sosidge said:

Roll on the new regs.

Bring in some more manufacturers! Regardless of regs, the Integras won both seasons* because the new Vauxhall wasn't quite up to the job and the Seats suffered from unreliability (drivers and cars).


* No disrespect to the car, drivers or team - everything there worked well - good car, reliable car (dedicated mechanics), reliable drivers.

[baskey]

the move to the etcc/wtcc regs this year will hopefully make it more 'real' again.

by big concern is that they have started down a slightly chav route over the last couple fo years and they may not be able to sort this.

i went to brands btcc last year and, compared to wtcc at silverstone, the other 'fans' were frankly embarrasing.

________

i kind of missed the rs500 era but was an avid fan from the arrival of the 155s through to the demise of supertouring.

i really hope it improves now. (i just wish s2000 had binned the stick-on wings)

[10 Pence Short]

I loved it when the Integra won the titles. A good kick in the nadgers for Honda who simply refused to import it despite being nagged and nagged. They couldn't use the win for marketing one little bit. Serves them right.

[baskey]

10 Pence Short said:

I loved it when the Integra won the titles. A good kick in the nadgers for Honda who simply refused to import it despite being nagged and nagged. They couldn't use the win for marketing one little bit. Serves them right.

not really! you could stick the alan gow bits on pretty much any car and prepare it well and you'd do well.

if team dynamics had used the civic shell (which they are doing this year) they'd have still won it dooesn't matter that the 'teg is a different shape!

[Calorus]

baskey said:

10 Pence Short said:

I loved it when the Integra won the titles. A good kick in the nadgers for Honda who simply refused to import it despite being nagged and nagged. They couldn't use the win for marketing one little bit. Serves them right.

not really! you could stick the alan gow bits on pretty much any car and prepare it well and you'd do well.

if team dynamics had used the civic shell (which they are doing this year) they'd have still won it dooesn't matter that the 'teg is a different shape!

I think that tge geometry is better on the Integra shell (you have ver little adjustment in touring cars) also the CG is lower and the track's longer. I think the shell itself is lighter, too.

Edited by Calorus on Thursday 8th February 14:00

[baskey]

Calorus said:

baskey said:

10 Pence Short said:

I loved it when the Integra won the titles. A good kick in the nadgers for Honda who simply refused to import it despite being nagged and nagged. They couldn't use the win for marketing one little bit. Serves them right.

not really! you could stick the alan gow bits on pretty much any car and prepare it well and you'd do well.

if team dynamics had used the civic shell (which they are doing this year) they'd have still won it dooesn't matter that the 'teg is a different shape!

I think that tge geometry is better on the Integra shell (you have ver little adjustment in touring cars) also the CG is lower and the track's longer. I think the shell itself is lighter, too.

Edited by Calorus on Thursday 8th February 14:00

out of interest not semantics do you mean (in my laymans terms) the wheelbase is longer or the track is wider

[10 Pence Short]

baskey said:

10 Pence Short said:

I loved it when the Integra won the titles. A good kick in the nadgers for Honda who simply refused to import it despite being nagged and nagged. They couldn't use the win for marketing one little bit. Serves them right.

not really! you could stick the alan gow bits on pretty much any car and prepare it well and you'd do well.

if team dynamics had used the civic shell (which they are doing this year) they'd have still won it dooesn't matter that the 'teg is a different shape!

No, the point I was making was that Honda tried and failed with factory support to get anywhere with the Civic. They also failed to listen to customers by refusing to import the Integra.

Then you have the irony of an independent team winning the honours in a Honda car which Honda UK cannot 'big up', as you can't buy it over here (officially). A marketing own goal if there ever was one.

[Calorus]

baskey said:

Calorus said:

baskey said:

10 Pence Short said:

I loved it when the Integra won the titles. A good kick in the nadgers for Honda who simply refused to import it despite being nagged and nagged. They couldn't use the win for marketing one little bit. Serves them right.

not really! you could stick the alan gow bits on pretty much any car and prepare it well and you'd do well.

if team dynamics had used the civic shell (which they are doing this year) they'd have still won it dooesn't matter that the 'teg is a different shape!

I think that tge geometry is better on the Integra shell (you have ver little adjustment in touring cars) also the CG is lower and the track's longer. I think the shell itself is lighter, too.

Edited by Calorus on Thursday 8th February 14:00

out of interest not semantics do you mean (in my laymans terms) the wheelbase is longer or the track is wider

I meant wider - I'm being dopey.

Edited by Calorus on Thursday 8th February 14:16

[havoc]

10 Pence Short said:

baskey said:

10 Pence Short said:

I loved it when the Integra won the titles. A good kick in the nadgers for Honda who simply refused to import it despite being nagged and nagged. They couldn't use the win for marketing one little bit. Serves them right.

not really! you could stick the alan gow bits on pretty much any car and prepare it well and you'd do well.

if team dynamics had used the civic shell (which they are doing this year) they'd have still won it dooesn't matter that the 'teg is a different shape!

No, the point I was making was that Honda tried and failed with factory support to get anywhere with the Civic. They also failed to listen to customers by refusing to import the Integra.

Then you have the irony of an independent team winning the honours in a Honda car which Honda UK cannot 'big up', as you can't buy it over here (officially). A marketing own goal if there ever was one.

Agree with Dan.

Also T-D fielded the Civic for 2 seasons before switching to the 'teg, and regardless of the fact that the Astra Coupe was a stunning performer, it still failed to perform anywhere near the 'teg. Combination of wider track, lower c-o-g, longer platform (hence better aero and high-speed stability) and better-placed suspension hardpoints. It was all-round a better car.

[baskey]

alright i doncede!

BUT how much wider is the track to get the centre of gravity down that much because the road car isn't that much lower? i saw a dc5 parked 2 cars away from a CTR last night(honestly not for the point of this debate!) and it didn't look much lower to me..?? i mean they *look* lower but only from a styling point of view..?

[Calorus]

baskey said:

alright i doncede!

BUT how much wider is the track to get the centre of gravity down that much because the road car isn't that much lower? i saw a dc5 parked 2 cars away from a CTR last night(honestly not for the point of this debate!) and it didn't look much lower to me..?? i mean they *look* lower but only from a styling point of view..?

DC5 is a lot lower, but the track doesnt lower the CG.

DC5: 1490 F & R

EP3: 1472/1487 F/R

[Calorus]

Height:

DC5: 1385
EP3: 1425

[baskey]

i was always crap at mechanics as opposed to stats..!

but it's that triangles business. if the base is proportionately wider then that must bring down the CoG..?

so it's the combination oflower height and wider track that lowers the CoG..?

if that's not right then i feel abit dim because i don't get it!

[Calorus]

baskey said:

i was always crap at mechanics as opposed to stats..!

but it's that triangles business. if the base is proportionately wider then that must bring down the CoG..?

so it's the combination oflower height and wider track that lowers the CoG..?

if that's not right then i feel abit dim because i don't get it!

Nope, CoG is body torque, so it's perpendicular distance. it will however have higher Y-Y polar inertia.

The CoG is simply lower because there's the top's nearer the bottom. but I think the ITR's engine sits lower too.

The drag improvement due to the tapered body can't be underestimated either, the CTR's snub tail is almost a "How not to" of good Aero.

Edited by Calorus on Thursday 8th February 15:39

[baskey]

Calorus said:

baskey said:

i was always crap at mechanics as opposed to stats..!

but it's that triangles business. if the base is proportionately wider then that must bring down the CoG..?

so it's the combination oflower height and wider track that lowers the CoG..?

if that's not right then i feel abit dim because i don't get it!

Nope, CoG is body torque, so it's perpendicular distance. it will however have higher Y-Y polar inertia.

The CoG is simply lower because there's the top's nearer the bottom. but I think the ITR's engine sits lower too.

The drag improvement due to the tapered body can't be underestimated either, the CTR's snub tail is almost a "How not to" of good Aero.

Edited by Calorus on Thursday 8th February 15:39

having been away from this for forever....

...there's something that is on the basis of what i was saying... rollcentre? centre of inertia? something like that where you need to take into account width and height?

i am going to disappear out of this thread because i look thick now!

[combemarshal]

A couple of years ago I used to hate BTCC, but the last couple it has been much better, not so much banging, a bit of rubbing, close races and if your a spectator you get to meet the drivers, Not like the Farce that is F1.
And there is nothing wrong with Fwd, if your a real motorsport fan you will know that!

[rubystone]

You have to remember that when Alan Gow returned, BTCC was on its knees; in fact touring cars on a global basis weren't faring very well. He returned at a time when manufacturers were questioning the cost and viablity of this type of racing and came up with a cost optimised series. He also provided those BTCC entrants with "Safe haven" from which to view the birth and development of WTCC. I think that BTCC will now suffer though until the WTCC burns itself out in the smoke of argument, changing rules and spiralling costs.