Discussion
Hi Andy,
I'm fairly sure that James has some plans in the pipeline for the hospitality side of things, and perhaps a method that funds it whilst assisting in other area's, can't comment further at this stage as it's only what I've heard on the grapevine but he is definitely working on it.
As to TV coverage etc, I've heard very little on this but will assume that those competitors that have sponsors will be hoping that it can be achieved, again, I presume that there is a cost factor to this, and that there will be those who are not too fussed about this aspect one way or another.
Your idea's have merit and if the race weekends were to be run in the way you suggest, I think it will further increase demand for grid slots, so I come back to my original question, what's the best method of securing grid slots, should the series become over subscribed, whilst being fair to all?
I'm fairly sure that James has some plans in the pipeline for the hospitality side of things, and perhaps a method that funds it whilst assisting in other area's, can't comment further at this stage as it's only what I've heard on the grapevine but he is definitely working on it.
As to TV coverage etc, I've heard very little on this but will assume that those competitors that have sponsors will be hoping that it can be achieved, again, I presume that there is a cost factor to this, and that there will be those who are not too fussed about this aspect one way or another.
Your idea's have merit and if the race weekends were to be run in the way you suggest, I think it will further increase demand for grid slots, so I come back to my original question, what's the best method of securing grid slots, should the series become over subscribed, whilst being fair to all?
My understanding is that You will be asked for around £2,400 at the start of the season. £300 of that will be allocated to each of the 8 rounds as pre-payment. You then pay the balance for each meeting in the usual way. If you fail to turn up I suspect you`ll lose the £300 for that round. James will, I presume, sell any spare slots on the grid as they become available through no shows or increased capacity for that particular venue.
Henry
Henry
Henry-F said:
My understanding is that You will be asked for around £2,400 at the start of the season. £300 of that will be allocated to each of the 8 rounds as pre-payment. You then pay the balance for each meeting in the usual way. If you fail to turn up I suspect you`ll lose the £300 for that round. James will, I presume, sell any spare slots on the grid as they become available through no shows or increased capacity for that particular venue.
Henry
Sounds reasonable, certainly helps in terms of pre commitment on both sides.Henry
I would however like to see some system in place for a rebate to cover unusual or unforeseen events. We had a situation this year where we had a serious off in pre season testing and ended up missing the first 4 rounds, I think it would be fair to allow for something like this or in fact any reasonable and qualified excuse, i.e falling ill, stuck in Botswana due to civil unrest, etc etc, most out of your hands type events as opposed to the self inflicted such as, had too much to drink at my sisters wedding and forgot to set my alarm. In essence, if your grid slot can be utilized and the EERC don't lose out, then you get a credit.
I`m not sure about that. James is actually doing the decent thing by not asking for all the entries up front as per many championships. If you are worried about not being able to attend then do each round as it goes (but obviously run the risk of not being able to get on the grid). The problem is that once James has sold all his places on the smallest grid (probably around 44) he has to turn people away. If you bin it after the first round and decide to throw the towel in those people who didn`t get to do the first round may not want to do all the remaining rounds as they are disadvantaged (but they would have done all the rounds were there spaces available from the start).
Possibly a little add on for the motor sport insurance for next year
Henry
Possibly a little add on for the motor sport insurance for next year
Henry
Racing Rod said:
Hi Andy,
I'm fairly sure that James has some plans in the pipeline for the hospitality side of things, and perhaps a method that funds it whilst assisting in other area's, can't comment further at this stage as it's only what I've heard on the grapevine but he is definitely working on it.
As to TV coverage etc, I've heard very little on this but will assume that those competitors that have sponsors will be hoping that it can be achieved, again, I presume that there is a cost factor to this, and that there will be those who are not too fussed about this aspect one way or another.
Your idea's have merit and if the race weekends were to be run in the way you suggest, I think it will further increase demand for grid slots, so I come back to my original question, what's the best method of securing grid slots, should the series become over subscribed, whilst being fair to all?
Its not so much the presence of hospitality Rod, more a race weekend format that is conducive to a social side. A single day with qually and a 4 hour race crammed into it won't give that. A two day meeting with testing on Friday and a two hour race on Sat and Sunday would.I'm fairly sure that James has some plans in the pipeline for the hospitality side of things, and perhaps a method that funds it whilst assisting in other area's, can't comment further at this stage as it's only what I've heard on the grapevine but he is definitely working on it.
As to TV coverage etc, I've heard very little on this but will assume that those competitors that have sponsors will be hoping that it can be achieved, again, I presume that there is a cost factor to this, and that there will be those who are not too fussed about this aspect one way or another.
Your idea's have merit and if the race weekends were to be run in the way you suggest, I think it will further increase demand for grid slots, so I come back to my original question, what's the best method of securing grid slots, should the series become over subscribed, whilst being fair to all?
I'm not sure about TV. Done well it is an asset, done badly not worth it. Either way it has to be paid for and I'm never sure about the return.
As for securing grid slots, an up front payment sorts the interested from the committed - but I agree with you, if the series is oversubscribed and you have to miss one or more rounds but a replacement car can be found, I don't see why a refund should't be possible. If one destroyed one's car it would be rubbing salt in the wounds to watch your grid slot being sold to someone else whilst you remained out of pocket
If it were me I suspect I would keep taking entries and cheques and if I was oversubscribed I'd keep pushing and marketing it so I could run the two races as I suggested. If numbers fell later in the season I could always combine the grids again. But I don't know enough about the economics to know at what grid number the money side works.
ALternatively first come first served, or if oversubscribed an alternative is everyone who has paid the joining fee by a certain date goes into a hat to be drawn at random
A better way is to try and accomodate everyone. You don't really want to be turning punters away - the year you need them they'll most likely be doing something else
Henry-F said:
Not sure why you seem unhappy with horsepower measured at the wheels implying it`s hard to get an exact figure. Surely power at the wheels is an exact figure as measured. I`d have thought power at the flywheel is the problem one because you are having to try & calculate loss through the drivechain and that`s where the guesswork comes in. The only accurate way to measure flywheel power is on an engine dyno which involves removing the engine from the car first!
in theory, you have a point, the proble is that in practice, power at the wheel is meaningless...it's subject to tyre compound, pressures, wheel weight, tie-down pressure, cooling, etc etc etc.... it really is a lottery (and that's before you get to people being 'clever' with trick dual-map ECU's, questionable temp senders, etc etc)
In the real world, people who want to cheat, and are allowed to cheat, will cheat....because everyone else is! I agree with everyone! Have power-loggers, have a rolling road etc. But unless there is a foolproof way to measure power against weight, people WILL cheat. Switchable ECU's, powerloggers that don't work etc. will always end in people bending and breaking the rules. Unless there is a cast iron solution to categorising the classes, there will always be a team who is cleverer than another, even if their driver's aren't as quick. It is a really difficult problem. We don't want cheque book racing yet we can't actually find a solution to not having exactly that. I am not a technical person (understatement of the millennium!), but surely there must be a simple way to have a 'fair' class system?????????????
Obviously a cylinder capacity categorisation won't work. So, the question is, how can the EERC measure power to weight accurately AFTER a race?
Does anyone have the answer to this......'cos I sure as hell don't !
Obviously a cylinder capacity categorisation won't work. So, the question is, how can the EERC measure power to weight accurately AFTER a race?
Does anyone have the answer to this......'cos I sure as hell don't !
Scuffers said:
Henry-F said:
Not sure why you seem unhappy with horsepower measured at the wheels implying it`s hard to get an exact figure. Surely power at the wheels is an exact figure as measured. I`d have thought power at the flywheel is the problem one because you are having to try & calculate loss through the drivechain and that`s where the guesswork comes in. The only accurate way to measure flywheel power is on an engine dyno which involves removing the engine from the car first!
in theory, you have a point, the proble is that in practice, power at the wheel is meaningless...it's subject to tyre compound, pressures, wheel weight, tie-down pressure, cooling, etc etc etc.... it really is a lottery (and that's before you get to people being 'clever' with trick dual-map ECU's, questionable temp senders, etc etc)
As for switchable ecu`s & the like, yes agreed there are many ways to cheat if you want to but I think the vast majority of the pack will play the game if they genuinely think the regs are going to be policed. Besides consider this....
These power loggers have been much talked about and whilst James assures me typical drag coeficients are available for most of the cars raced I have my doubts of their ability to deliver acurate "absolute" power figures. HOWEVER, as a comparative test between equal cars I think they could well be the answer to stamp out switchable ECUs.
You test 4 similar BMWs on the dyno at get figures for power at the wheels. You then look at the power loggers for each of cars. Knowing the figures achieved on the dyno you can easily work backwards to get the drag coeficient for each car. If one of the cars shows an oddball figure then it`s probably cheating. Use the average coeficient from the other 3 & you`ll see by how much.
In that respect I think the power loggers are a good idea as a comparison between similar cars during the race (and I`ve said this before). I strongly feel they need to be backed up by the use of a dyno, ideally at the circuit, and if funds are limited at random rounds.
Publish the results of any tests (you should keep everything open including car`s weights etc). Now where you might not toally agree with me: if a car is found to be cheating, rather than scratch them from the results you might, this being Britcar, let everyone know the results of your test and ask them to turn the power down before the next meeting. They will automatically be tested at the next available time. If they are found to be cheating again during the season then they are out of the championship. Public humiliation is a powerful tool.
By publishing the results of any tests openly I think you also have the ability to self police testing methods. If you have been tested at 300hp when you know full well you run at 350 then there is a problem similarly if you are told you are running at 400hp there is also a problem. It`s a bit like noise testing, we all know when there is a problem with testing methods because the results differ from previous tests carried out earlier on in the season. 1 car might have something wrong with it but not all 40.
Henry
Henry-F said:
In that respect I think the power loggers are a good idea as a comparison between similar cars during the race (and I`ve said this before). I strongly feel they need to be backed up by the use of a dyno, ideally at the circuit, and if funds are limited at random rounds.
Publish the results of any tests (you should keep everything open including car`s weights etc). Now where you might not toally agree with me: if a car is found to be cheating, rather than scratch them from the results you might, this being Britcar, let everyone know the results of your test and ask them to turn the power down before the next meeting. They will automatically be tested at the next available time. If they are found to be cheating again during the season then they are out of the championship. Public humiliation is a powerful tool.
By publishing the results of any tests openly I think you also have the ability to self police testing methods. If you have been tested at 300hp when you know full well you run at 350 then there is a problem similarly if you are told you are running at 400hp there is also a problem. It`s a bit like noise testing, we all know when there is a problem with testing methods because the results differ from previous tests carried out earlier on in the season. 1 car might have something wrong with it but not all 40.
Can't argue with you there Henry, Hub-Dyno's are a way better bet (in terms of getting repeatable numbers etc).Publish the results of any tests (you should keep everything open including car`s weights etc). Now where you might not toally agree with me: if a car is found to be cheating, rather than scratch them from the results you might, this being Britcar, let everyone know the results of your test and ask them to turn the power down before the next meeting. They will automatically be tested at the next available time. If they are found to be cheating again during the season then they are out of the championship. Public humiliation is a powerful tool.
By publishing the results of any tests openly I think you also have the ability to self police testing methods. If you have been tested at 300hp when you know full well you run at 350 then there is a problem similarly if you are told you are running at 400hp there is also a problem. It`s a bit like noise testing, we all know when there is a problem with testing methods because the results differ from previous tests carried out earlier on in the season. 1 car might have something wrong with it but not all 40.
I also think your policing suggestion is a good one, as you say, public humiliation is a powerful tool.
Measuring power is ALWAYS going to be contentious. Personally, I am happy with power loggers and rolling roads but probably this is because I know the power of my car and I know we are legal - just!!!!
The Porsche Club take random cars away, immediately after the race, and weigh and power test them. OK, it does not solve switchable ECUs but it does seem to work quite well. They seem to be able to police the rules and although there arealways a few people muttering I dont believe there is widespread cheating - on power at least! Frankly, PCGB are looking at 5 to 10 brake, the EERC need to start at 100 brake so it should be much easier for them!!
The EERC need a simple and cheap method for power measurment. After the experience they have gained with the loggers in 2007 I believe they can use them again in 2008, police them carefully and diligently at each round and if there is a decrepancy the rules must allow for an independant rolling road test (at a predetermined facility) with the car taken straight from the track. It could then be tested in as near race condition as possible. The results of this test, no matter what the outcome, should be sacrisant - no arguement. The EERC should get the entrant to sign away any liability for blown engines on the rollers and if the owner did not want the engine tested then they automaticaly "fail" the test and the relevant penalties are imposed.
Rolling roads are a good and relatively cheap way of measuring power at the wheels. I believe the rules allow for a tolerance on power (+/- 5%??) and certainly the rolling roads are (or at least can be if operated correctly) capable of working well within these levels.
Comparisons with other similar cars are all well and good and can be used as an indication but in my opinion its a bit of a blunt instrument. A good pointer though.
It really boils down to the EERC. They have the tools to police the championship but do they have the stomach? Excluding a competitor for any reason takes nerve and may result in never seeing them again. James needs to weigh this up but the alternative of zero policing will inevitably mean the failure of the championship in the long term.
As I have said before, James has convinced me he will do things properly this year so I will have another go. He had better be right!
Cheers,
Richard.
The Porsche Club take random cars away, immediately after the race, and weigh and power test them. OK, it does not solve switchable ECUs but it does seem to work quite well. They seem to be able to police the rules and although there arealways a few people muttering I dont believe there is widespread cheating - on power at least! Frankly, PCGB are looking at 5 to 10 brake, the EERC need to start at 100 brake so it should be much easier for them!!
The EERC need a simple and cheap method for power measurment. After the experience they have gained with the loggers in 2007 I believe they can use them again in 2008, police them carefully and diligently at each round and if there is a decrepancy the rules must allow for an independant rolling road test (at a predetermined facility) with the car taken straight from the track. It could then be tested in as near race condition as possible. The results of this test, no matter what the outcome, should be sacrisant - no arguement. The EERC should get the entrant to sign away any liability for blown engines on the rollers and if the owner did not want the engine tested then they automaticaly "fail" the test and the relevant penalties are imposed.
Rolling roads are a good and relatively cheap way of measuring power at the wheels. I believe the rules allow for a tolerance on power (+/- 5%??) and certainly the rolling roads are (or at least can be if operated correctly) capable of working well within these levels.
Comparisons with other similar cars are all well and good and can be used as an indication but in my opinion its a bit of a blunt instrument. A good pointer though.
It really boils down to the EERC. They have the tools to police the championship but do they have the stomach? Excluding a competitor for any reason takes nerve and may result in never seeing them again. James needs to weigh this up but the alternative of zero policing will inevitably mean the failure of the championship in the long term.
As I have said before, James has convinced me he will do things properly this year so I will have another go. He had better be right!
Cheers,
Richard.
935 said:
Some stuff about farming sugar beet, how they don`t make bailer twine like they used to and then.....It really boils down to the EERC. They have the tools to police the championship but do they have the stomach? Excluding a competitor for any reason takes nerve and may result in never seeing them again. James needs to weigh this up but the alternative of zero policing will inevitably mean the failure of the championship in the long term.
Which is why I suggested the slightly more "Britcar" way of penalising teams for 2008. If James` only weapon is exclusion then I`m not sure he will use it on two grounds. Firstly the worry that your data is not 100% reliable. Secondly James wants to preserve his customer base and maintain the friendly atmosphere in the paddock.My suggestions would still provide a detterent, allow exclusion if absolutely necessary and make everyone feel comfortable that something is being done to get the Britcar house in order. Maybe in 2009 We look for a slightly less leniant approach to those found cheating but let`s make the transition as seemless and pain free as possible.
How would you feel if you`d been power tested, found to be 70hp over the limit and everyone knew the only reason you`d done well that meeting was because you`d cheated. The Britcar paddock is quite a close & friendly one, use that to the club`s advantage.
Henry
Agreed peer pressure is a strong weapon but ultimately James has to be ready to exclude the car if it is found to be running outside the rules. If not, then some people may decide that they can put up with peer pressure and they will do their own thing. Remember, in a few years people will be able to look up who won the championship - it wont say they were ostrasized (spelling???) by their fellow competitors.
I think Britcar has matured and no longer needs overt protection from the EERC. It should be strong enough to stand on its own two feet. However, I guess that is as much down to us as it is to the EERC.
Cheers,
Richard.
I think Britcar has matured and no longer needs overt protection from the EERC. It should be strong enough to stand on its own two feet. However, I guess that is as much down to us as it is to the EERC.
Cheers,
Richard.
Even in F1 if teams were found to have something that stretched the rule's!!They would first be told not to have it at the next race. Many different rolling roads will provide different figures especially on different days, weather, American or Australian manufacturer ect. The only true way to test IMO would be the same dyno device on the same day same weather ect and all the cars tested at the same time. I have personally seen 10% difference in figures in the space of 2 weeks between different Rolling roads.
Other championships have a rolling road session at the press day for example figures are logged then all engine's electronic boxes etc are sealed. Then if you need access to either you have to break the seal have it re tested and then re sealed. If you have a separate logger to your ecu there should be no reason to access it unless you have a problem or to tweak the map!
Other championships have a rolling road session at the press day for example figures are logged then all engine's electronic boxes etc are sealed. Then if you need access to either you have to break the seal have it re tested and then re sealed. If you have a separate logger to your ecu there should be no reason to access it unless you have a problem or to tweak the map!
Let`s not get drawn into a debate about intricate testing methods and possible variations. Let`s also not create an administative nightmare. At the moment there is no policing in Britcar. I think we are all agreed we want to see some, but let`s keep it simple and make it easy for the eerc to introduce without the fear of financial ramifications, (I think we are also all agreed that ultimately a few sensibly policed rules will actually strengthen grids rather than deminish them so James will be better off - and I want 15% 
).
No one wants to quash the feeling of freedom Britcar currently enjoys and I think talk of the finer points of regulation is probably for future years. Let`s get a basic structure in place for now that is adhered to and see where we go from there.
Henry
).No one wants to quash the feeling of freedom Britcar currently enjoys and I think talk of the finer points of regulation is probably for future years. Let`s get a basic structure in place for now that is adhered to and see where we go from there.
Henry
I have to say - I don't agree! If you want a championship then you have to have rules. Rules are balck and white - they must be. If a competitor falls foul of them they must be "punished". I dont accept the rolling road arguement. If the championship says "we use rolling road A" then this becomes the one that is used. The results are the results and there can be no arguement.
However, maybe you don't want a championship - just a series. Now the organisers can "bend" the rules! I've never been too keen on champioship status. OK, it ups the prestigue but it also carries a lot of downsides. Strict rules, extra cost, the list goes on. The EERC gave us a championship because we asked for it - now we must live with the consequences, both good and bad.
Now, in the real world, I believe we will get some "fudging" going on and I'm OK with that. If James is really going to try then I am sure and I hope we will all support him. However, I still say that you can't start off by saying you will cast a blind eye to some things. This is a sureway to anarchy - and we have had that for too long!
Cheers,
Richard.
P.S. Henry, I'm fresh out of bailing wire - have you got some?
However, maybe you don't want a championship - just a series. Now the organisers can "bend" the rules! I've never been too keen on champioship status. OK, it ups the prestigue but it also carries a lot of downsides. Strict rules, extra cost, the list goes on. The EERC gave us a championship because we asked for it - now we must live with the consequences, both good and bad.
Now, in the real world, I believe we will get some "fudging" going on and I'm OK with that. If James is really going to try then I am sure and I hope we will all support him. However, I still say that you can't start off by saying you will cast a blind eye to some things. This is a sureway to anarchy - and we have had that for too long!
Cheers,
Richard.
P.S. Henry, I'm fresh out of bailing wire - have you got some?
I`ve got a load in the lower 20 acre paddock, I`ll grab it for you next time I`m down there.
I`m not advocating turning any blind eyes. I just worry that if you exclude people on the first offense we end up getting entwined in ISO testing procedures, appeals to the MSA, etc. If however you let all the other teams know the results of the test, warn the team concerned that they are clean out of chances, excuses or blind eye turning and will be tested again at which point they will be removed from the championship if found to be cheating still (and be prepared to carry out that threat) then that will suffice.
Possibly you could choose to implement a 5 place deduction for that meeting as well.
Henry
I`m not advocating turning any blind eyes. I just worry that if you exclude people on the first offense we end up getting entwined in ISO testing procedures, appeals to the MSA, etc. If however you let all the other teams know the results of the test, warn the team concerned that they are clean out of chances, excuses or blind eye turning and will be tested again at which point they will be removed from the championship if found to be cheating still (and be prepared to carry out that threat) then that will suffice.
Possibly you could choose to implement a 5 place deduction for that meeting as well.
Henry
As I said before - its really up to the EERC. I hope they police the rules and I will even accept leniency but the organisers MUST be seen to be doing something!
Now that is over, I must brake out my 900 horsepower, 850 kg 911E. I reckon that will go nicely in the 260 class!!!!!!
ONLY JOKING!!
Cheers,
Richard.
Now that is over, I must brake out my 900 horsepower, 850 kg 911E. I reckon that will go nicely in the 260 class!!!!!!
ONLY JOKING!!
Cheers,
Richard.
Henry-F said:
Possibly a little add on for the motor sport insurance for next year
Henry
Ah ha! What a great idea. I happen to know that cover is available for this from insuremotorsport.com as standard.Henry
For those buying annual cover, consequential losses of up to 10% of the insured vehicle's value are covered, following an insured event (i.e., following an on-track claim, for example). This is provided as part of the standard policy and includes loss of race entry fees.
Let me or Andy know if you'd like to find out more.
This is a public service announcement and not an ad!!!
Cheers.
Kevin
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