Brands Hatch & the 2008 Regs - Has it gone wrong already?

[Bellly]

Just seen the entry list from EERC for the Brands Hatch race next weekend and looks like, unless i am missing something, the class structure has gone wrong already.

ENTRY LIST FOR CLASS 2

Warren Gilbert / Rob Wilson Topcat Racing TVR Tuscan Orange
Dave Shelton / Nigel Greensall Kockney Koi BMW M3 Z3 Black
Phil Quaife / Phil Keen Quaife Porsche 996
Jon Harrison / TBA Topcat Racing Marcos Mantis 4600 Silver
Kevin Hancock / Leigh Smart Jemco Racing Marcos Mantis 4600 Green / Black / White
Henry Firman / Pete Morris 911 Virgin.com Porsche 996 GT3 Cup 3600 White
Kevin Clarke / Ian Donaldson Intersport BMW M3 E46 GTR Silver
Andy Ruhan / Aaron Scott Team Nero Ferrari 360 3600 Black


FROM THE EERC:

Hi all......who's coming to Brands Hatch then? James & I will be trying out the new "provisional" 2008 Britcar Regulations.......new pitstops......new class structures, so this is the time to try and see what you think!!!!

Give me an call or e-mail me if you want more info...01252 834377 or e-mail :- [e-mail]

Lets stop talking about the regulations and put them into practice!!!!!

See you all there!!!!

So:.........................unless i am missing something....

According to the 2008 Regs, class 2 has a weight/BHP factor of 3.7, therefore for every 370 kgs you can have 100 bhp

Our M3 will weigh 1250kgs with 90 kgs driver, so our BHP at the wheels is 337 or about 370bhp at the flywheel. I know that a certain 996 in the class is about 350 at the wheels and is slightly heavier.
But what about a 4600cc Marcos, assuming it weighs 1300kgs is is producing 350bhp at the wheels? ummmmm?
E46 GTR aint going to weigh much more than our E36 but only 337 bhp at the wheels.
Team Nero Ferari quicker than my old Tech9 996 but still in class 2

Peter Morris is racing with Henry in the 911virgin car, which i know meets the regs for class 2, he can drive, [not that Henry can't!] but that should be a benchmark for lap times.

Really not impressed with this so called 'test of the 2008 regs' and i doubt there will be any protesting.

However, if we are going to run in class 2 in 2008, i know there will be a few of us who will be protesting after race when it is so obvious that there are cars not within regs.

Have i missed the point or are we facing 2008 being 'no regs, do what you want?

Edited by Bellly on Friday 2nd November 21:24

[Marc W]

Any chance you could put the entire list up?

[mattbmw]

The EERC team have certainly be working hard on the 2008 regs and I'm sure are doing their best to get it right, but I'm not sure I fully understand the logic either - particularly 'weight to power' - I always thought it should be 'power to weight'. The co-efficient calculations are back to front and don't make any sense to me...(nor to an experienced designer and engineer friend at McLaren). Definitely requires further discussion / clarification.

Fully entry list as emailed by Claire on Friday evening.

CLASS ONE - 150 SECS

3 Peter Seldon / Matt Seldon Serverware Group Plc BMW E46 M3 GTR
6 Paul Hogarth / Darren Knutton In 2 Racing Porsche 997 GT3
7 Paul Fenton / Mike Gardener Moore Racing Viper Competition Coupe
11 Paul Drayson / Jonny Cocker Barwell Motorsport Aston Martin DBRS9 - GT3
17 Dave Longstaff / TBA DJR Motorsport Marcus LM600
26 Mick Mercer / Richard Fores Topcat Racing Marcos Mantis
99 Dave Shelton / Ian Dockerill Kockney Koi BMW M3 E46 GTR

CLASS TWO - 130 SECS

12 Warren Gilbert / Rob Wilson Topcat Racing TVR Tuscan
13 Dave Shelton / Nigel Greensall Kockney Koi BMW M3 Z3
19 Phil Quaife / Phil Keen Quaife Porsche 996
24 Jon Harrison / TBA Topcat Racing Marcos Mantis
27 Kevin Hancock / Leigh Smart Jemco Racing Marcos Mantis
29 Henry Firman / Pete Morris 911 Virgin.com Porsche 996 GT3 Cup
33 Kevin Clarke / Ian Donaldson Intersport BMW M3 E46 GTR
36 Andy Ruhan / Aaron Scott Team Nero Ferrari 360

CLASS THREE - 100 SECS

48 D Shelton / Jono Coleman Kockney Koi BMW M3 E36
59 Angus Dawe / Phil Bennett Thatgixer Racing BMW M3 E36
62 Mark Smith / Dave Cox Metcalf Motorsport BMW M3 E30

CLASS FOUR - a - 80 SECS & b - 60 SECS

60a Mark Lemmer / Michael Brown Barwell Motorsport Honda Integra DC5
68a Ian Lawson / Anthony Wilds / Mike Wilds HWR Motorsport BMW 320i
69a Ian Gaw Porsche
71a TBA / TBA Daniels Motorsport Honda Civic
72a TBA / TBA Daniels Motorsport
73a Steve Hirst BMW E30
84a TBA / TBA Moore Motorsport Honda
90b Stuart Plotnek / Gary Smith KB Automotive MG ZR

[Henry-F]

A minimum weight in KG per single BHP make perfect sense to me and is a very easy to apply method of dividing the various cars. You can either build your car around the engine power or tailor the engine power to your car`s minimum weight acheivable. There are an infinite number of variables to which your friend in McLaren can attest but the reality is the EERC simply do not have the technical scrutineering facilities to include the likes of drag co-efficients, downforce, etc in their calculations. By the same token it would seem McLaren have forgotten basics such as running tyres down to the canvas.

We are 1200kg dry plus driver so with me in the car at almost exactly 90kg we are 1290kg. In reality we`ll be running a floor of probably 15-20 litres of fuel in the tank so let`s call it 1300kg (obviously more with fuel and the good Mr Morris in the hot seat). Engine is 380hp (max) at the flywheel so probably 340 at the wheels via a std H pattern gearbox. We`re probably 5 or 10hp down on what we could legally run but that`s good enough for me.

I too also have reservations over the eligability of several of the entrants ability to run legally within the limit of 3.7kg per 1.0 bhp.

We have debated the rules a great deal and the EERC team have, to their credit, listened and responded accordingly with the bare bones of a workable structure for 2008 that will move the championship forward.

Fundamental to the future of the EERC however is the policing of those rules, particularly with regards to the relative performance of each car. Failure to police the rules will result in the EERC remaining in the wild west league of motorsport.

We have an extremely simple way of dividing the classes that does not rely on complex scrutineering, just a weighbridge (which Brands Hatch have) and a way of testing power.

I appreciate this is a relatively small meeting held in the middle of winter but I think a lot rests on it re: people`s confidence in the new found enthusiasm of the EERC to promte a fair, honest and cost effective platform on which to go racing.

I do hope that pre-season signing up of teams for 2008 isn`t taken as a sign for the EERC team to become complacent and fall into old habits.

We are hoping to run competetively in 2008 and can either run to the regs or cheat. I`d love to do the former, (not least because it will shave £50k from the year`s budget), but from the Brands Hatch entry it would appear the latter solution may be the only answer.

I`m with Belly on this one. I wonder if all the teams might openly declare their weights and power outputs and those claims be met by weighing the cars as they finish the race with results published for all to see.

Incidentally I still can`t see why the EERC insists on theoretical weights and then adding a theoretical driver at 90kg when a far easier way is simply to say the car`s weight is taken as it finishes the race which can be checked as it leaves parc ferme, the time a car will be at it`s lightest. As it is you simply weigh you car full of fuel (claiming the tanks are dry) and add other ballast as required, then race with that ballast removed and the fuel tanks empty towards the end of the race.

Henry

Edited by Henry-F on Sunday 4th November 13:06

[Simon Mason]

[quote=Henry-F]
Fundamental to the future of the EERC however is the policing of those rules, particularly with regards to the relative performance of each car. Failure to police the rules will result in the EERC remaining in the wild west league of motorsport.
[quote]

I think I should point out for the benefit of the future of the EERC and its competitors that policing is equally as poor in British GT, except by means of words in ears and protest, although at least they have been known to take a fuel sample in Parc Ferme but thats about it.

Purely by virtue of a degree of security in enforcing a basic rule structure, Britcar can get ahead of GT and attract some more people to the series.... with money James ;-)

[2priestsferrari]

EERC formula is based upon power and weight? If we agree with that then two questions.

1. Why is the 997 cup car in class one?
2. How does a Marcos LM600 fit? given the spec of that car was around 1100kgs and 600+bhp

http://www.gt-racing.co.uk/cars/marcos/marcoslm600...

I also doubt that the Top Cats Marcos with its LS7 motor would be able to carry enough weight to balance out the power of an LS7...

Finally and something that EERC need to change is the regulation 17.1 - where it says "No alterations to original chassis". Well on a unibody car like saloon cars I doubt very much if any of them are un altered given the need to add roll cages, different suspension pick ups and package a fuel tank.

Why does the EERC make rods for their back? Meet 2008 same as 2007.

Edited by 2priestsferrari on Sunday 4th November 17:38

[Bellly]

I just have this real issue that JT is thinking commercially and not about what car goes in what class, if the Brands race is a test of the 2008 regs then surely the way forward would have been for the EERC to request weights and BHP's from all competitors and weigh all cars before qualifying. The power figures will come off the dataloggers.

All he seems to have done is collect entries and let you chose your class.

As far as i am concerned, our team will arrive at the first race and using a team of specialists, we will protest any car that seems to be outside the regs in terms of power to weight.
It may cost is a few quid in protest fees but in accordance with the regs, if the cars are outside the regs, we get our money back!
It will be interesting to see so many cars be loaded onto transporters and be taken to a rolling road.
But any car outside the regs will have 10 championship points deducted making it almost impossible to win the Championship.

Maybe by race 2 we will have some close racing?

I also know that one or two other teams will back this proposal.

And finally, the 2008 regs state that each car wil be weighed and power tested [datalogger]before the first round? Hows is that going to happen? How is he going to get all cars together and get them driven around a circuit to get this information?
James...... Just bring a dyno to the first round and dyno and weigh everything?

As for Henry suggesting that we either comply with the regs or cheat, i would rather spend any extra money protesting than on a £25K engine to cheat with..... you can do a lot of £250 protesting for that amount... and get most if it back...

Not sure how popular we would be, but then 911Virgin.com and Crisis Motorsport will have the biggest beer tent, hot tubs and Thai dancing girls....

[Henry-F]

Bellly said:

Not sure how popular we would be, but then 911Virgin.com and Crisis Motorsport will have the biggest beer tent, hot tubs and Thai dancing girls....

I think flesh & booze always win over people in the end.

As for making decisions on a commercial basis I think the commercially astute way forward is to run a fair championship. I have always had James` need for commercial success in the back of my mind when making my suggestions, you may loose the odd team who no longer get results (because they can`t run a car with a performance advantage any more) but I think far more teams will come in and fill their place.

Might have stolen the lead from you in the pre-season pit babe stakes Steve, check out my face book-friends pictures.


Henry

[Bellly]

Wotever Henry..... wait till you meet the Thai dancing girls....

Not got Facebook cos i have no friends but my misses has so she is having a look

Going to have a chat with JT

[Simon Mason]

Last I heard on Friday was we were going to use a fixed rolling road like they do in the VLN, I'm quite happy with this. Hmmm heard something like this last year though, but hope it happens this year, its a new season after all... I hope!

Eitherway, I expect to see enforced basic power and weight policing next year or we will join you Belly in protesting cars which are blatently outside the rules as written. Its cheaper than going to join them. I hate the thought of being a protestor, but if its the only way to get class stability, so be it.

We are now paid up and registered for class 1 2008 as of Friday but like you chaps I don't want to be regreting our car choice just because the rules are not being policed even in moderation.

[935]

I am extremely worried about the contents of this thread. I, too, have signed up and paid my deposit for 2008. I have started work on the car to ensure it meets with the power to weight rules as stated in the draft regulations. James had assurred me these regulations will be adherred to.

2007 was a farce as far as the rules were concerend. People put in too much fuel and people ran too much power (or not enough weight!). If this systimatically happens next year I am sure there will be more than 1 team putting in protests.

For the record, our car has 525 flywheel horsepower as measured on Engine Developments dyno. I do not know the wheel power but I suspect around 450 to 460 and the car weighs 1200 kgs. With James 90kgs driver we are easily legal in power terms. I just hope everyone else will be!

Have a good race at Brands. It will be intresting to see the respective speeds of some cars.

Cheers,

Richard.

[ALEC FRANCIS]

Any Protests/ Disputes that cannot be agreed, will be policed by the final figures produced on a Rolling Road. The Rolling Road will be nominated by the Coordinator, the car will be sealed and transported to the Rolling Road, tested and returned to the competitor in a timeframe set by the coordinator and all costs will be charged to the Protester who looses his or her Protest/Dispute.

It could cost you thousands Belly....

[935]

Only if the cars are found to be legal! I dont like protests; not only are they expensive but it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

It seems to me that the EERC should ask the competitors for the power and weight figures of their cars before accepting the entry. The EERC can either refuse an entry (???) or tell the competitor that the car needs modifying before racing. This way, if a car is found to be illegal after the event the EERC can at least say it tried to do something! They also need to designate a rolling road for these tests and state that the figures from this road will be taken as gospel - no arguements!

I think the problem with the brands race is no one believes the EERC are going to do anything about it. Lets hope they read this thread and take on board that they MUST or risk losing eveerything for next year!

Cheers,

Richard.

[Simon Leith]

As far as I understand it, the policing of the rules is down to the MSA and not the EERC so it is not for James to enforce. The problem we have here is simple...the solution is the tough bit. If people want to cheat.....they will cheat. With modern technology and information, it is easy to have a switchable ECU which you turn off/on when you cross the line so that when the car goes to the rollers, it is legal. Surely there needs to be a test for each car where the power-logger is calibrated with the rolling road before the season starts. This way there is a log of what each car should have. Then, if a car is much quicker than the others in class, it can be taken to the rollers and checked against the initial readings, and you power at the rollers and on your data-logger can be compared. I don't really see any other way of doing it! If I was doing this, I would insist that every car to enter the championship attend a test day and a rolling road day to have their car logged and weighed prior to the season opener at Silverstone. This would stamp out most of the cheating....or maybe not !!!!

[935]

The power logger is basically an accelerometer. On the rolling road it would read "zero" no matter what the engine power!

I agree it is down to the MSA but the club needs to be seen to do something. History tells us that they do not and yet they have promised 2008 will be different. Obviously, we need to wait and see what does happen at Brands but I for one would like the club to be a little more proactive!!!!

Cheers,

Richard.

[Bellly]

Just had a long chat with JT, i really think he has got the message about this and we will see a different Britcar for next year. I can understand why this may seem frustrating for the EERC but past history does not give confidence. However, it is a simple solution if they don't police, we simply protest...

There will be enough teams who are complying with the regs that will effectively join forces to protest and as Richard states, you only have to cough up if you lose the protest.

Still think it would be good if JT would voice his opinions on these Forums occasionally

[Simon Leith]

935 - I realize the power-logger would read zero on the rollers but, for example, if you had a test day with a specific car where the power-logger was used to log 'perceived' horsepower of say 300BHP at the wheels. We then go the the rolling road where the 'actual' horsepower is say 312BHP, and the car is weighed at 1,200 kgs. If, when protested, the car shows 350BHP on the power-logger but still 312 at the rolling road, then that car is cheating and has a switchable ECU or something similar. If the cars are weighed and the power loggers checked after every round, for every car, then there would be no disputes because we would already know, prior to the start of the season, what power and what weight each car has. e.g, if pre-season we had the above figures for our car but after a race our power-logger showed more than 300BHP - the MSA would know there was something wrong. the problem is that this has to be done for every car and every race or it won't work

Now, I know this would cost a bit and take a bit of time. But, when 'one' is spending circa £100k on a race season, I think it would be money well spent to make it fair.

[Piglet]

I'm not entirely sure it is for the MSA to police the technical regulations set by an individual championship.

This should be dealt with by the EERC eligability scrutineer(S) (who will be licensed by the MSA) - it's a championship matter.

I think it would be unfortunate to see any problems or even perceived problems being blamed on the MSA although it's always easier to blame someone else.

It does seem unfair if the onus is on competitors to have to run the risk of proving a fellow competitor is cheating, where does that fit within the context of an appeal under Blue Book reg's?

[Henry-F]

I think the problem for Brands stems from "known" figures for generic cars. As an example the TVR Tuscan:

From my brief research it would appear the raced at 850kg and either 348bhp or 450bhp if a speed eight engine. Let`s assume this one`s put on a bit of weight and is 910kg plus 90kg driver, 1000kg. Engine is 450bhp at the flywheel, 410bhp at the wheels. That would give 3.2kg/bhp when the class limit is 3.7kg/bhp So either it`s going to have to weigh 1150kg (assuming a 350bhp @ flywheel engine) or have 270bhp @ the wheels assuming 1000kg.

If we at least weigh all the cars and let competitors have a list we will be able to have a guestimation if the cars are cheating. Again, we need to weigh the cars as they finish the race, and again let that information be public & open so there are no accusations or rumors.

Henry

[935]

Piglet (??) - I agree with you on the scrutineer issue. It is not clear to me who takes the initial responsibility for policing the rules. If it goes to a protest them I can see it is the MSA but I would like to think the initial policing is done by the EERC MSA approved eligibility scrutineers. I believe the EERC think differently but there you are!

Henry is correct. At the moment it is all down to perception that car A is running too much power etc etc. However, there is no doubt that some cars ran too much power earlier this year and although it was obvious to everyone nothing was done about it. Lets hope that from now on the game has changed and after Brands we can all write in applauding the EERC for checking the cars. No one hopes it more than me!

Cheers,

Richard.