Brands Hatch & the 2008 Regs - Has it gone wrong already?
Discussion
935 said:
However, there is no doubt that some cars ran too much power earlier this year and although it was obvious to everyone nothing was done about it.
I think this is less of an issue than the utter confusion regarding what and how things edn up in what class. The top class is the top class and if you take 2007 as an example your car was on the pace and I think I'm right in saying was on pole most places it went. Reliability was your downfall. The V8Star had reliability issues too and then when it won had some or all professional drivers at the helm. The 993 GT2 turbo never won so where is the beef there? The Marcos was quick too but got shunted heavily mid year and the Marcos LM600 was quick at Brands A1GP meeting but had a weak driver in the mix so that shot that in the foot.
The point is actually the big class has yeilded some good races its the smaller classes where all the moaning comes from.
On a practical note, if the EERC want to weigh all of the cars during the race meeting at Brands I'd imagine they will need to arrange this in advance.
Trying to get that many big'ish cars through the weighbridge (at pit entry) whilst a race meeting is running will have its problems and will require planning not to block the post race parc ferme area or the infield assembly area.
Trying to get that many big'ish cars through the weighbridge (at pit entry) whilst a race meeting is running will have its problems and will require planning not to block the post race parc ferme area or the infield assembly area.
2Priests Ferrari, I dont agree with you here! I can only talk about class 1 as this is really all I know about. Some cars in this class definately ran too much power. Not just 10 or 20 brake more but upwards of 50 or 60 brake. Whilst I accept that reliability was our downfall we had to run the car so much harder to try and keep up with the over powered/underweight cars that a failure was almost bound to happen. So, my point is that rules are rules and must be adherred to no matter which class you are in.
Certainly, there are some cars in class 2 that I believe should have been in class 1 but they were slow enough not to worry anyone! I do not say this is an excuse for being in the wrong class but it is a fact! I would agree that the 997 should be in class 2 according to the rules but if the people want to enter in class 1 it is their choice.
You know my feelings on the rules and I hope the EERC will not shy away from enforcing them. I have just seen an email from them stating that all cars must have an approved and working powerlogger for Brands. At least it looks like they are serious! Lets hope they do something with the data - time will tell but I am hopeful!
Cheers,
Richard.
Certainly, there are some cars in class 2 that I believe should have been in class 1 but they were slow enough not to worry anyone! I do not say this is an excuse for being in the wrong class but it is a fact! I would agree that the 997 should be in class 2 according to the rules but if the people want to enter in class 1 it is their choice.
You know my feelings on the rules and I hope the EERC will not shy away from enforcing them. I have just seen an email from them stating that all cars must have an approved and working powerlogger for Brands. At least it looks like they are serious! Lets hope they do something with the data - time will tell but I am hopeful!
Cheers,
Richard.
Assuming we have garages I don`t see it being a problem to weigh the cars During Friday / Saturday morning. We can drive up the back of the garages, weigh, and then drive down the pit lane back to our garages. After the race the cars can be held in parc-ferm which is the compound directly behind the end garage (where weighing takes place). Weighing takes 20 seconds or so per car, they are then released to go back to their garages along the pit lane. The winning cars remain in parc-ferme whilst their drivers are driven to the podium at the other end of the pit lane. All fairly standard stuff.
Henry
edited to say :
Re: the 997 issue, I agree that if a 997 falls within the rules of class 2 then that`s the class it should race in (even though it would disadvantage us. As it is though the car does currently fall into class 1 (all be it at the lower end of the power to weight scale. Not only is the car more powerful than a 996 but the gearbox is more efficient meaning the power at the wheels figure will be significantly higher than a 996, even though the power at the flywheel figures are only marginally higher.
This is a meeting where the EERC needs to show it`s intention for 2008, not just in how long the cars are held in the pit lane, but in terms of the club`s intention to police their rules.
Henry
Henry
edited to say :
Re: the 997 issue, I agree that if a 997 falls within the rules of class 2 then that`s the class it should race in (even though it would disadvantage us. As it is though the car does currently fall into class 1 (all be it at the lower end of the power to weight scale. Not only is the car more powerful than a 996 but the gearbox is more efficient meaning the power at the wheels figure will be significantly higher than a 996, even though the power at the flywheel figures are only marginally higher.
This is a meeting where the EERC needs to show it`s intention for 2008, not just in how long the cars are held in the pit lane, but in terms of the club`s intention to police their rules.
Henry
Edited by Henry-F on Monday 5th November 15:05
935 said:
Whilst I accept that reliability was our downfall we had to run the car so much harder to try and keep up with the over powered/underweight cars that a failure was almost bound to happen.
I agree almost entirely with your post but for the fact that I don't understand the "running the car harder to keep with over powered or underweight cars".If your car was on pole (i.e. made the fastest lap of the weekend) and was legal in that spec then these over powered / under weight cars must be driven by tossers??
Surely that is the only way you can think others were cheating when you were the fastest car??
2priests - now you have me!!!!!! Our driver line up was not particularly equal in that my co driver was slightly slower than me. The other cars, some driven by excellent people, others not so excellent, were driven with endurance in mind so had some performance in hand. I drove my car flat out at all times because I had to make up for an extra pit stop (our cars biggest issue is its fuel consumption) and a slightly slower co driver.
It was obvious to me at Snetterton. We ran exactly the correct power to weight (maybe a few horsepower too many but it is really dificult to be exactly correct at all times with a turbo) and I was overtaken by a number of cars 3/4 of the way down the Revett Straight. This is despite coming onto the straight quicker and it points to either a distinct drag advantage (quite possible) but more likely a large power advantage by the other cars. These cars did not creep past, they came past like I was standing still so something was amiss!
Driver skill is not part of the rules and regulations. Power to weight is and thats the rub. Aero efficiency is also not regulated but the power logger has to know the aero efficiency to be able to work out the power. Who really knows the CdA of their car - not many to be sure. We have had ours in a wind tunnel so we know a base figure but rake, wing setting, even camber effect this quite severley so even we are guessing! Anyway, lets hope Brands is successful for everyone - its really up to the EERC now!
Cheers,
Richard.
It was obvious to me at Snetterton. We ran exactly the correct power to weight (maybe a few horsepower too many but it is really dificult to be exactly correct at all times with a turbo) and I was overtaken by a number of cars 3/4 of the way down the Revett Straight. This is despite coming onto the straight quicker and it points to either a distinct drag advantage (quite possible) but more likely a large power advantage by the other cars. These cars did not creep past, they came past like I was standing still so something was amiss!
Driver skill is not part of the rules and regulations. Power to weight is and thats the rub. Aero efficiency is also not regulated but the power logger has to know the aero efficiency to be able to work out the power. Who really knows the CdA of their car - not many to be sure. We have had ours in a wind tunnel so we know a base figure but rake, wing setting, even camber effect this quite severley so even we are guessing! Anyway, lets hope Brands is successful for everyone - its really up to the EERC now!
Cheers,
Richard.
It's funny you know. I was asked to race in a 2 hour 2cv at Pembrey a couple of weeks ago and every single car was weighed after qualifying and selected cars were weighed after the race. The scrutineers then took apart the top 3 engines and inspected them. This was a BARC 2cv race so why can't we do it for Britcar. The way I see it is that unless ALL cars are weighed and power-logged before the start of the season, it will open up a loop hole for people to cheat.....and they will !
935 said:
I was overtaken by a number of cars 3/4 of the way down the Revett Straight. This is despite coming onto the straight quicker and it points to either a distinct drag advantage (quite possible) but more likely a large power advantage by the other cars. These cars did not creep past, they came past like I was standing still so something was amiss!
Driver skill is not part of the rules and regulations. Power to weight is and thats the rub. Aero efficiency is also not regulated but the power logger has to know the aero efficiency to be able to work out the power. Who really knows the CdA of their car - not many to be sure.
Fair point well made. But now can you see the futile nature of these regs? What you are saying is that powerlogger is pointless as before it can be effective you need to spend time at MIRA to get the aero figure for your car.Driver skill is not part of the rules and regulations. Power to weight is and thats the rub. Aero efficiency is also not regulated but the power logger has to know the aero efficiency to be able to work out the power. Who really knows the CdA of their car - not many to be sure.
Then anyway given the lap times - because nevermind the straight bits its the whole lap that counts - were fairly tight and that made for some reasonable races.
Sooner or later it will dawn on people that once the cars are "equal" then it will fall upon drivers to raise their game. Then what about if some team chooses to put two good drivers together?? After all the term "professional" driver isn't easy to cover is it? Example if you and Mark Ticehurst had raced together that to me isn't going against the pro driver rule..
Simon Leith said:
It's funny you know. I was asked to race in a 2 hour 2cv at Pembrey a couple of weeks ago and every single car was weighed after qualifying and selected cars were weighed after the race. The scrutineers then took apart the top 3 engines and inspected them. This was a BARC 2cv race so why can't we do it for Britcar. The way I see it is that unless ALL cars are weighed and power-logged before the start of the season, it will open up a loop hole for people to cheat.....and they will !
But what gets me is that there are all these claims of "cheating" with big motors or low weight or 2nd ECU's yet a number of issues arise.Firstly whilst the claim of foul play goes on you still have no issue with bumping 997 cup cars or BMW Z4's for no reason. Secondly if you think there was cheating stand up and say who. Thirdly for all this cheating the championship was close and had good battles.
2priests - I kind of agree! The racing was quite good at the front. For me, if the rules had been policed (and not just power to weight) even a bit I think I would have come away happy.
We are now trying to make the car more reliable and this is the part that really costs money - not engine power! My resources are severly limited but we do everything ourselves so we will have a go - I just hope everyone plays the game and the championship matures into something special. It has the potential but it is in the EERC's hands!
Marc is a great guy and I would love to race with him. Unfortunately, the issue comes back to money. He won't pay to drive the car and need someone that does! Its simple really. John Allen does a good job and I hope and expect him to be quicker next year. This fact alone will help us.
I am looking forward to racing the Vipers, Astons and Moslers - even a Ferrari or two!!!. All the cars have different strenghts and weaknesses and it should make for a good race. Driving standards must be maintained because bumper car driving is not on but I have no reason to believe that this will be an issue.
Roll on 2008.
richard.
We are now trying to make the car more reliable and this is the part that really costs money - not engine power! My resources are severly limited but we do everything ourselves so we will have a go - I just hope everyone plays the game and the championship matures into something special. It has the potential but it is in the EERC's hands!
Marc is a great guy and I would love to race with him. Unfortunately, the issue comes back to money. He won't pay to drive the car and need someone that does! Its simple really. John Allen does a good job and I hope and expect him to be quicker next year. This fact alone will help us.
I am looking forward to racing the Vipers, Astons and Moslers - even a Ferrari or two!!!. All the cars have different strenghts and weaknesses and it should make for a good race. Driving standards must be maintained because bumper car driving is not on but I have no reason to believe that this will be an issue.
Roll on 2008.
richard.
We ran the DL1's in Kumho BMW and it was a mess, there were shouts of cheating and all sorts...it was mayhem. But, when they were tested back to back on a dyno they were particularly accurate to within a few bhp, so they are workable, but the Cd is imperative to this, you don't need MIRA for this, it's easy to find out what that car's production Cd is. You can then have some sort of scale for reducing the Cd accordingly for the aero bits we are allowed to run.
These don't necessarily need to be bang on accurate, they merely need to be consistent in their variation of accuracy and as long as that is the case then everyone will have the same advantage/disadvantage so it would be fair.
As long as the EERC has the balls to police it properly then I think it'll work just fine.
These don't necessarily need to be bang on accurate, they merely need to be consistent in their variation of accuracy and as long as that is the case then everyone will have the same advantage/disadvantage so it would be fair.
As long as the EERC has the balls to police it properly then I think it'll work just fine.
taffyracer said:
We ran the DL1's in Kumho BMW...but the Cd is imperative to this, you don't need MIRA for this, it's easy to find out what that car's production Cd is. You can then have some sort of scale for reducing the Cd accordingly for the aero bits we are allowed to run.
These don't necessarily need to be bang on accurate, they merely need to be consistent in their variation of accuracy and as long as that is the case then everyone will have the same advantage/disadvantage so it would be fair.
As long as the EERC has the balls to police it properly then I think it'll work just fine.
You start well enough but then there is a sudden lapse into a huge grey area. First off there has never been any discussion EERC end re: Cd.These don't necessarily need to be bang on accurate, they merely need to be consistent in their variation of accuracy and as long as that is the case then everyone will have the same advantage/disadvantage so it would be fair.
As long as the EERC has the balls to police it properly then I think it'll work just fine.
Then you assume that some can discover their Cd. The 935 of Richards is a total one off, as is the Marcos LM600 for example. Then all of a sudden there is some worked out scale for big wings, splitters, flat floor and dive planes.
End of the day minimum weight is fine and easy to understand the power thing is and always has been a mystery to me. I think you have to simply assume that people will make their motors as high spec as possible to a degree and then it is easier to have classes by capacity, which is how it is with the VLN which is where the EERC regs started....
Let`s not get ahead of ourselves. Worry about dual ECUs if and when it arises. For the moment can we just ensure all the cars fall within the class power to weight ratios when running as declared by their drivers or tested on a dyno if those claims seem unreasonable.
It may be that James needs to ask teams their engine power and vehicle weight before allocating them a class. He can then check the weight at the circuit and if necessary the power after the race.
Henry
It may be that James needs to ask teams their engine power and vehicle weight before allocating them a class. He can then check the weight at the circuit and if necessary the power after the race.
Henry
2priestsferrari said:
taffyracer said:
You start well enough but then there is a sudden lapse into a huge grey area. First off there has never been any discussion EERC end re: Cd.
Then you assume that some can discover their Cd. The 935 of Richards is a total one off, as is the Marcos LM600 for example. Then all of a sudden there is some worked out scale for big wings, splitters, flat floor and dive planes.
End of the day minimum weight is fine and easy to understand the power thing is and always has been a mystery to me. I think you have to simply assume that people will make their motors as high spec as possible to a degree and then it is easier to have classes by capacity, which is how it is with the VLN which is where the EERC regs started....
But you also fail to understand that it's in the regs, this is what they are proposing, not ptw based on a rr, so there needs to be something in place to use for the Cd, ok so there are one offs but there has to be some form of yardstick and using official published Cd's is about as close as anyone will get without going to a windtunnel.Then you assume that some can discover their Cd. The 935 of Richards is a total one off, as is the Marcos LM600 for example. Then all of a sudden there is some worked out scale for big wings, splitters, flat floor and dive planes.
End of the day minimum weight is fine and easy to understand the power thing is and always has been a mystery to me. I think you have to simply assume that people will make their motors as high spec as possible to a degree and then it is easier to have classes by capacity, which is how it is with the VLN which is where the EERC regs started....
Personally i would have preferred that we all had to go to a nominated rr for a power run and hand over a copy of the map for that run, then you have your ptw from there, check the top 3 cars in each class after each event and if there is a massive change in the map then it'll be clear, only need someone with an ounce of technical nouse
Simon Mason said:
This whole thread is soooo last year 
yep it certainly is....
It started to go downhill once 2priestferrari had some input on matters that are not relevant to the PTW. oh and he still wont tell us who he is?
Had a long chat to JT and i have some confidence he is in control.
I have started a new topic that we all may find more interesting
With all due respect Steve, the power loggers which are proposed to be the main way of policing the series require a coast down test to calibrate them and a cd figure. So I don't think the factors 2PF mentions are irrelevant at all. I don't know the drag coefficient of my car, not a clue. An the frontal area won't be a great indicator given all the slashes and louvres all over it.
However, I maintain that the series will be fine provided that anyone obviously extracting the michael can be detected and dealt with. Apart from that I don't think it needs minutely scrutineering. As I have said before, I have no problem with e.g. a Marcos running a higher power to weight than a Mosler if that compensates for its ancient chassis and produces a good race.
However, I maintain that the series will be fine provided that anyone obviously extracting the michael can be detected and dealt with. Apart from that I don't think it needs minutely scrutineering. As I have said before, I have no problem with e.g. a Marcos running a higher power to weight than a Mosler if that compensates for its ancient chassis and produces a good race.
JT has assured me that he has the drag coefficient for cars in the series and has faith in the DL1 loggers.
The regulations state that PTW ratios are the basis of the class structure and power will be measured using the DL1. This whole string was started as a result of the EERC publishing the classes for the Brands race this weekend and there being some doubt as to the cars in class 2.
I don’t really care what the drag coefficient is for our car is, it isn’t really important for us, we just need to produce a car that meets the regs and protest like f*** when we see other obviously not doing so.
No amount of comments on this forum will make any difference to decision of the EERC to use the DL1, what we are looking for is for the EERC to police the regulation as they have published them.
The regulations state that PTW ratios are the basis of the class structure and power will be measured using the DL1. This whole string was started as a result of the EERC publishing the classes for the Brands race this weekend and there being some doubt as to the cars in class 2.
I don’t really care what the drag coefficient is for our car is, it isn’t really important for us, we just need to produce a car that meets the regs and protest like f*** when we see other obviously not doing so.
No amount of comments on this forum will make any difference to decision of the EERC to use the DL1, what we are looking for is for the EERC to police the regulation as they have published them.
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