Brands Hatch & the 2008 Regs - Has it gone wrong already?
Discussion
Graham said:
doesnt need the power calculation to be accurate as it could say at the first round you had 1000 bhp when the r/road says you've got 300 ( which would be down to incorrect vehicle constants), but as long as the later data logs ( using the same constants) also calculate you have 1000bhp and not 1100 then your ok.
G
No you're not OK because if the DL1 "could" be so inaccurate as to think a 300bhp motor is making a 1000bhp then it should be slung up the wall. We are being made to pay for these pieces of sh** and it is pointless because no body seems to get them to work consistantly.G
2priestsferrari said:
Some stuff about why the DL1 is no good and how the classes should be set based on engine size.
You`ve mentioned this engine size idea before (and from memory set rather odd limits of 1600cc 1800cc and everything else !).The fundamental problem with using engine size is that it opens the floodgates for cheque book racing. Those with enough money to extract the most power from their chosen size of engine win. With power to weight (and yes there are lots of ways to cheat etc, etc but so far everyone seems to be fessing up to pretty realistic power and weight figures voluntarily), there is no significant advantage to a big cheque book.
Yes you can develop a little more downforce, a bit better suspension, even a better drinks system but those are not going to make as much difference as 100bhp extra on a straight bit of track.
The rules have been based on a power to weight ratio for the classes. End of story. I`d like to see a minimum weight for cars in each class but there isn`t one, so I`ll have to live with it. What we are talking about is making sure the rules that have been set are policed, not to within a couple of kg or a couple of bhp but to the bigger picture.
Edited by Henry-F on Thursday 8th November 12:07
Edited by Henry-F on Thursday 8th November 12:09
2priestsferrari said:
Graham said:
doesnt need the power calculation to be accurate as it could say at the first round you had 1000 bhp when the r/road says you've got 300 ( which would be down to incorrect vehicle constants), but as long as the later data logs ( using the same constants) also calculate you have 1000bhp and not 1100 then your ok.
G
No you're not OK because if the DL1 "could" be so inaccurate as to think a 300bhp motor is making a 1000bhp then it should be slung up the wall. We are being made to pay for these pieces of sh** and it is pointless because no body seems to get them to work consistantly.G
( garbage in garbage out or at least consistent garbage)
so in that worst case scenario with incorrect results due to the wrong constants, it would show when you wound up the power....
I've nothing to do with Race Technology, or any revenue stream JT has cooked up but I have been using the dl1 and its predecessor the dl90 or a number of years, so I've played with them more than most...
Yes I agree garbage in garbage out and it seems we are arguing the same point here. If the garbage was consistant then everything is fine but it can never be consistant can it? If you are guessing some cars Cd then the error factor is going to be different depending upon the car make and type - it would be pretty amazing if you guessed the Cd within the same tollerance of each car.
On Henry's point of engine size equals cheque book racing, that is utter rubbish. I've already shown you how cheap GM and Ford big capacity V8's are. Ultimately if you want to go racing for little money then frankly race in a smaller class.
It is a little difficult to see your point when you yourself race in a 996 which can never win outright anyway and then start talking about restricting people in the upper class. Why - it has no effect on the class within which you race.
As for the class limits then what would be so hard about having 3600cc as the upper limit for say class 2? OK it puts BMW against Porsche cup cars but so what - a well driven E36/E46 with the right bits can live with a cup car. Those that start bleeting about that are just protective about the fact that they currently race in an uncompetitive class..
On Henry's point of engine size equals cheque book racing, that is utter rubbish. I've already shown you how cheap GM and Ford big capacity V8's are. Ultimately if you want to go racing for little money then frankly race in a smaller class.
It is a little difficult to see your point when you yourself race in a 996 which can never win outright anyway and then start talking about restricting people in the upper class. Why - it has no effect on the class within which you race.
As for the class limits then what would be so hard about having 3600cc as the upper limit for say class 2? OK it puts BMW against Porsche cup cars but so what - a well driven E36/E46 with the right bits can live with a cup car. Those that start bleeting about that are just protective about the fact that they currently race in an uncompetitive class..
2priestsferrari said:
This whole thing is way too complex and actuallly the DL1 is totally useless in this application.
Even if the DL1 is showing incorrect figures it would be impossible for them to be consistantly wrong, unless everyone was driving cars with the same Cd. As that is not going to be the case and it is unreasonable for everyone to obtain that figure accurately its all pointless.
Easy solution. Weigh the cars and work off engine size for classes. Then if someone is going significantly quicker in class then increase their minimum weight. Its simple, can be policed on the day and everyone can understand it.
Then perhaps we can get on with the driving which is (as Simon Mason says) is the biggest influence on lap time.
The only reason the DL1 is with us is to generate another revenue stream. If the EERC needs to be money then just up the entry fees or registration fee.
2PF; looks like, from the last paragraph, you are racing with us next year?? Even if the DL1 is showing incorrect figures it would be impossible for them to be consistantly wrong, unless everyone was driving cars with the same Cd. As that is not going to be the case and it is unreasonable for everyone to obtain that figure accurately its all pointless.
Easy solution. Weigh the cars and work off engine size for classes. Then if someone is going significantly quicker in class then increase their minimum weight. Its simple, can be policed on the day and everyone can understand it.
Then perhaps we can get on with the driving which is (as Simon Mason says) is the biggest influence on lap time.
The only reason the DL1 is with us is to generate another revenue stream. If the EERC needs to be money then just up the entry fees or registration fee.
What class are you going to be in? What are you running?
I we look forward to you buying us all beer!
2priestsferrari said:
It is a little difficult to see your point when you yourself race in a 996 which can never win outright anyway and then start talking about restricting people in the upper class. Why - it has no effect on the class within which you race.
Where have I talked about limiting people in class 1 ? Everything I`ve written refers to 3.7 kg/bhp, the class 2 limit in which I race. I have no ulterior motive in trying to engineer the races to win outright, just to compete on a level playing field in my class.Henry
Graham said:
IMHO any series looking to run to p/w regs and loggers need to do the folloing.
1) All cars declare weight and power
2) All cars weighed as they come off the track with driver and remaining fuel and thats the check weight for the calculation
3
now you have the info to calculate accurate figures on dl1's and a baseline from the rolling road.
G
There's no reason why these tests can't be done during a day, a mobile RR could be present and the cars could then be run on the RR with the DL1 logging at the same time and the 2 readings compared, that will give you your variation, as long as it doesn't exceed that variation and the car is not massively lighter at each round then there's no issue is there, accuracy is not important as long as you know the variation between the 21) All cars declare weight and power
2) All cars weighed as they come off the track with driver and remaining fuel and thats the check weight for the calculation
3
now you have the info to calculate accurate figures on dl1's and a baseline from the rolling road.
G
2priestsferrari said:
Steve/Henry - tell me where is the issue with engine size then? How would a 3600cc class limit hurt?
My car produces 380bhp at the flywheel on a good day. For 87,000 euros I can buy an engine that produces 560bhp and is lifed for 8 hours with rebuild costs of 34,000 euros each 8 hours thereafter.I can then reduce the weight of the car at approximately 1,000 euros per kilo for the first 100 kilos or so, considerably more there-after.
I could buy an american V8 powered car which would get me over the first hurdle (ie to get more power than non american V8 powered cars). But then I`m going to have to dig out the chequebook again to find yet more power to beat all the other V8 engined cars. At that point I`m looking outside off the shelf solutions, and back to my short life high power one offs again.
It`s a spiral. The great thing about power to weight is that once you`ve got to the class limit hopefully set at an achievable level (which in Britcar it is), there`s no need to spend silly money.
So that`s why I don`t see a crude measure like engine size working. (notwithstanding the obvious temptation to cheat and increase capacity). Does the EERC have the budget to strip complex engines at will, or would that be at yet more expense to the teams in your engine cc derby ?
Henry
So much time to cover the same old stuff, have'nt you guys got business' to run and Spa's to warm up?
Dom refering specificaly to the mobile rolling road situation I am reliably informed they are no more accurate than a DL1. Besides we don't need regular weighing. We just need a cars power figure and then an enforced policed base weight. Its self policing after that with scope in the rules to penalise dominance.
Dom refering specificaly to the mobile rolling road situation I am reliably informed they are no more accurate than a DL1. Besides we don't need regular weighing. We just need a cars power figure and then an enforced policed base weight. Its self policing after that with scope in the rules to penalise dominance.
Edited by Simon Mason on Thursday 8th November 18:31
Will the new pit stop stratgy be used at Brands Hatch, as after looking at the time needed for pit stops, looking at a 120minute race the class one cars have to be in the pit lane for roughly 300seconds compared to the class 4's 60 seconds, meaning class one cars being in the pits for 240seconds more. In a race im guessing a class 1 car would more than likly make up 4minutes on a class 4 car, so for example on the silverstone internatinol this would be round about 2 and a half laps, but would this mean on some tracks they might not make up this time meaning alot more cars going for the overall race win and more cars fighting for positions from different classes, would be good to see that kind of racing but will it happen?
Chris
Chris
Henry-F said:
2priestsferrari said:
Steve/Henry - tell me where is the issue with engine size then? How would a 3600cc class limit hurt?
My car produces 380bhp at the flywheel on a good day. For 87,000 euros I can buy an engine that produces 560bhp and is lifed for 8 hours with rebuild costs of 34,000 euros each 8 hours thereafter.2PF: Stop avoiding the beer issue.....
I count at least, me, Richard, Henry, Dom and JT & Claire....
Simon: Spa problem is sorted, we build a fire under it, MSV have lots of spare wood to burn
When you have had a really Sh*te day at the office, there is always the Pistonhead/Britcar forum to lower your blood pressure...and have a good old
Dom: Found a car yet?
2PF: are you racing with in 2008?
I count at least, me, Richard, Henry, Dom and JT & Claire....
Simon: Spa problem is sorted, we build a fire under it, MSV have lots of spare wood to burn
When you have had a really Sh*te day at the office, there is always the Pistonhead/Britcar forum to lower your blood pressure...and have a good old
Dom: Found a car yet?
2PF: are you racing with in 2008?
Bellly said:
2PF: Stop avoiding the beer issue.....:
Cutting to the chase and I'm sorry if this is abupt but given the slagging you have given me over what has just been my opinion 1. Why would I want to buy you a beer? 2. Why would you want to share a beer with me?Bellly said:
2PF: are you racing with in 2008?
Maybe. I'm just waiting to see how the current shambles pans out then I'll wait and see what car you enter so I can enter the same class. You'll be banging your head then let me assure you.Simon Mason said:
2priestsferrari said:
Bellly said:
2PF: are you racing with in 2008?
Maybe. I'm just waiting to see how the current shambles pans out then I'll wait and see what car you enter so I can enter the same class. You'll be banging your head then let me assure you.
Anyone going to Macau next week.....? Mini Monaco?
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