Driver Coaching: Benefit or Budget Buster?
Discussion
Taking the diversion from the thread on "what's stopping you from going racing"...what are the general opinions on race instruction and driver coaching as opposed to a reliance on self-belief and 'natural talent'. Personally - I've been racing for around 8 years and been a regular front-end runner but a change in class suddenly threw me into a very different environment and by the 2nd round, I'd already taken a days instruction with a driver coach who knew the cars and learnt more about where else you could push them on a damp and miserable Snetterton than I'd have been able to learn in a number of race weekends...
...the downside was that when we actually raced there, it was bone dry for race 1 and it snapped a cable on the lights for Race 2 but the principle was there and gave a lot more confidence for the rest of the year (mechanical reliability was still shocking but that's the 3rd part of the ratio of instruction-v-mechanical development-v-affording to go racing in the 1st place!!
Or are there those out there who believe that there's really no one who could teach them something new about their car/their talent or the circuits that they drive..?
...the downside was that when we actually raced there, it was bone dry for race 1 and it snapped a cable on the lights for Race 2 but the principle was there and gave a lot more confidence for the rest of the year (mechanical reliability was still shocking but that's the 3rd part of the ratio of instruction-v-mechanical development-v-affording to go racing in the 1st place!!
Or are there those out there who believe that there's really no one who could teach them something new about their car/their talent or the circuits that they drive..?
I have driven high performance cars for the majority of my driving life, driven in stage rallies, road rallies, snow rallies, sprints, hillclimbs and thousands of miles on tracks for fun for over 20 years. I've always had a natural feel for car dynamics and been pretty quick when i wanted to be, but i have always been open to learning.
Before i was old enough to have a licence (16) i attended one of Manchester Polices training facilities where they taught me skid control and general driving skills, it set me up for learning to drive at an early age (not learning to pass my test, thats not driving), which is when learning any new skill is easier.
Probably the best day i have spent in this respect was at MIRA with Don Palmer, back when MIRA used to allow the use of their wet weather facility for training. A day with Don increased my confidence and ability in the wet massively, to the point i now really enjoy driving on a wet track. The skills i learned that day certainly kept me on the road when i hit snow over a blind crest into a corner on what was previously a dry road. It's worth every penny spending time with a good coach, even if it's only once you will learn something valuable.
You still need natural ability to be quick of course, but put the two things together and you have an advantage over people who just have ability, or have no ability but coaching.
Before i was old enough to have a licence (16) i attended one of Manchester Polices training facilities where they taught me skid control and general driving skills, it set me up for learning to drive at an early age (not learning to pass my test, thats not driving), which is when learning any new skill is easier.
Probably the best day i have spent in this respect was at MIRA with Don Palmer, back when MIRA used to allow the use of their wet weather facility for training. A day with Don increased my confidence and ability in the wet massively, to the point i now really enjoy driving on a wet track. The skills i learned that day certainly kept me on the road when i hit snow over a blind crest into a corner on what was previously a dry road. It's worth every penny spending time with a good coach, even if it's only once you will learn something valuable.
You still need natural ability to be quick of course, but put the two things together and you have an advantage over people who just have ability, or have no ability but coaching.
Edited by johnfelstead on Wednesday 14th November 22:31
No question in my mind, coaching with the right coach cannot be anything else but a big benefit.
I think it important in the context of the question here that in order to take full benefit, one ought to consider where and when the benefit would be greatest.
That is, if you're doing a series and you hope to be a front runner, you are taking it as a given that the car is pretty much optimized via power, tyres and set up for the championship crusade. At which point, the benefit of coaching is clear.
If your car and aspirations are not optimized, then you'll have to factor in that weakness.
There are coaches and coaches (and Brad Gilbert!). Do make sure that you get the right sort of coach; you need to easily appreciate their experience as being relevant to your circumstances. So don't be blinded by a load of words and waffle. If he's not won a national championship at your level, it's unlikely he can offer real improvement advice. And if your aspirations are higher, they must have race winning experience at that level in order for you to take benefit. Even then, they maybe able to race, they may not be able to communicate how.
The benefits that come from a good coach come more from what he can do with you mentally. In an ideal world (stress ideal), you would test at every circuit a few days prior to every race. With an experienced coach, of course, you should be able very quickly be able to unlock the secret to a lap record lap, your track mapping read outs, etc and all that good knowledge. This gives you such an advantage in terms of confidence before maintaining concentration and a consistent commitment (4 x C's!).
And can I bang this drum - it is RACING you should be talking about, not just DRIVING.
I think it important in the context of the question here that in order to take full benefit, one ought to consider where and when the benefit would be greatest.
That is, if you're doing a series and you hope to be a front runner, you are taking it as a given that the car is pretty much optimized via power, tyres and set up for the championship crusade. At which point, the benefit of coaching is clear.
If your car and aspirations are not optimized, then you'll have to factor in that weakness.
There are coaches and coaches (and Brad Gilbert!). Do make sure that you get the right sort of coach; you need to easily appreciate their experience as being relevant to your circumstances. So don't be blinded by a load of words and waffle. If he's not won a national championship at your level, it's unlikely he can offer real improvement advice. And if your aspirations are higher, they must have race winning experience at that level in order for you to take benefit. Even then, they maybe able to race, they may not be able to communicate how.
The benefits that come from a good coach come more from what he can do with you mentally. In an ideal world (stress ideal), you would test at every circuit a few days prior to every race. With an experienced coach, of course, you should be able very quickly be able to unlock the secret to a lap record lap, your track mapping read outs, etc and all that good knowledge. This gives you such an advantage in terms of confidence before maintaining concentration and a consistent commitment (4 x C's!).
And can I bang this drum - it is RACING you should be talking about, not just DRIVING.
I'd say it depends on the instructor. Some people here may have had bad experiences; I know I have. I've sat with several instructors on track over the years and I'm rather ashamed to say I've learnt nothing about driving from any of them. I should swiftly point out that's not because I'm a great driver, it's just because their instruction was very poor! They just couldn't get across what they wanted to say, and one of them didn't actually say anything! I'm hopefully going to get some instruction from a guy that comes highly recommended next year, so fingers crossed I'm going to learn a lot from him (he's on PH and may be along in a minute). The way I look at it is that you can always learn something from everyone. I'm of the mindset where I'm always learning something. I even do this at work - if I see particular training or management technique that I like then I adopt it to try and improve myself. I'll never be perfect, but I can ensure that I'm improving in the right direction
I've seen the same trend in other walks of life:
I play guitar in a band, but I'm a truly terrible singer, so I wanted some singing tuition. A friend of mine is a teacher and highly musical, so she tried. She gave up after an hour and said I'd never be able to sing
I then found this teacher called Jane about half an hour's drive from my house and she was amazing. She had me singing within two lessons! A totally natural teacher.
I went kayaking the other day. It's something I've only done a few times and I'm pretty rubbish at it. However, after twenty minutes the instructor of our group pulled alongside and told me three or four things to do differently. I did them and it transformed everything. Bearing in mind this guy was looking after 6 of us in a choppy sea, I was jolly impressed at his teaching and observational ability.
I've got loads of other examples, especially from work as I work in training and instruction; but I won't bore you - except to mention Hugh Nobblett of Cadence Driver training. If you want good road instruction on advanced driving - he's the man!
The last thing I should say is that you can always learn from someone. Everytime I'm following another car in a race I'm obviously working out where he's weak so I know where I can pass. The other thing I do though is work out where he's strong and try and work out why I'm not as strong in that corner. If you do this with enough people it can be very educational!
So, in summary, keep an open mind, but crucially, find a good instructor.
(he's on PH and may be along in a minute). The way I look at it is that you can always learn something from everyone. I'm of the mindset where I'm always learning something. I even do this at work - if I see particular training or management technique that I like then I adopt it to try and improve myself. I'll never be perfect, but I can ensure that I'm improving in the right direction I've seen the same trend in other walks of life:
I play guitar in a band, but I'm a truly terrible singer, so I wanted some singing tuition. A friend of mine is a teacher and highly musical, so she tried. She gave up after an hour and said I'd never be able to sing
I then found this teacher called Jane about half an hour's drive from my house and she was amazing. She had me singing within two lessons! A totally natural teacher.I went kayaking the other day. It's something I've only done a few times and I'm pretty rubbish at it. However, after twenty minutes the instructor of our group pulled alongside and told me three or four things to do differently. I did them and it transformed everything. Bearing in mind this guy was looking after 6 of us in a choppy sea, I was jolly impressed at his teaching and observational ability.
I've got loads of other examples, especially from work as I work in training and instruction; but I won't bore you - except to mention Hugh Nobblett of Cadence Driver training. If you want good road instruction on advanced driving - he's the man!
The last thing I should say is that you can always learn from someone. Everytime I'm following another car in a race I'm obviously working out where he's weak so I know where I can pass. The other thing I do though is work out where he's strong and try and work out why I'm not as strong in that corner. If you do this with enough people it can be very educational!
So, in summary, keep an open mind, but crucially, find a good instructor.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 15th November 10:46
I think coaching has a value, how big that value is depends on what your aspirations are as said above. If you're looking to break into professional racing then I can see the benefit of lots of coaching, you get to drive more tracks while having your driving assessed and as well as that they will be assessing how you are able to take on board what they are telling you and provide feedback from your laps. I have no doubt that these folks will chat to their friends in the sport informally about you if you're particularly promising.
But, for me right now it's not worth it yet. I'm new to racing this season, which you would think ought to give me the most to benefit from coaching, however I feel that right now track time and the discussions with my knowledgeable friends about what I am doing on track are giving me the improvement I need. Once I'm more settled with the car and being able to describe what is going on then I will be very much open to some coaching. This will be as budget allows, rather than increasing the budget to get more coaching as I'm in this as a hobby.
But, for me right now it's not worth it yet. I'm new to racing this season, which you would think ought to give me the most to benefit from coaching, however I feel that right now track time and the discussions with my knowledgeable friends about what I am doing on track are giving me the improvement I need. Once I'm more settled with the car and being able to describe what is going on then I will be very much open to some coaching. This will be as budget allows, rather than increasing the budget to get more coaching as I'm in this as a hobby.
I don't know how practical or easily you can do this, but soemone like Mike Wilds (Ex F1GP and good guy), well briefed at a track day (Easytrack?) would sit alongside you (in a road car) and in a 10 minute run could deliver you (say) 5 major areas of weakness that he would note on your (race) driving.
With that done at the begining of the year at your most feared circuit, it would give you some major pointers to bear in mind as you complete the year, at very little cost.
With that done at the begining of the year at your most feared circuit, it would give you some major pointers to bear in mind as you complete the year, at very little cost.
Everytime I go out in a race car i learn something new. Every major sport has coaching and motorsport is no different. If you find a good coach it will bring you on much faster than without.
You do however need to be able to accept that coaching will help.. if you go in with a closed mind you will get nothing out of it other than an emptier bank balance...
Saying its point less is all bravado.. I read an article about the chap who ran the first 3 minute mile ( or whatever it was) at the time it had to appear as if you didnt put any effort into it and were just a natural. so did he do no training, of course he did plenty but all alone and at odd times so he wasnt seen...
Top sports people have people coaching them at every level from diet,exercise,the sport to managing the media why because it works...
I certainly dont claim to be the worlds greatest driver, and I have had some coaching, but then again I havent seen any of the guys who say its a waste of time on the F1 grid recently
one example of the indirect value of coaching was this..
In the taz we were a good midfield charger if a bit wayward. I had a bit of coaching that confirmed i was on the right track which gave me a bit more confidence. HE also drove the car and said there was a problem with the way the diff was working in the car... A change of Diff and the next season we took almost all the lap records and one th class...
At the time I didnt have enough experience to understand the problem was with the car and not my driving. which lead to over driving a poorly handling car. It took the coach about a hour to say what your trying to do is right but keep your head up, but there is a problem with the car.. eventually on my own i would have either worked it out or given up. That saved me a lot of time and money.
I still have the odd bit of coaching now and I've done a little for friends and sponsors and find both usefull for continuing the learning process.
motorsport is a hard enough game as it is, why make it harder trying to do it all by our self.
G
You do however need to be able to accept that coaching will help.. if you go in with a closed mind you will get nothing out of it other than an emptier bank balance...
Saying its point less is all bravado.. I read an article about the chap who ran the first 3 minute mile ( or whatever it was) at the time it had to appear as if you didnt put any effort into it and were just a natural. so did he do no training, of course he did plenty but all alone and at odd times so he wasnt seen...
Top sports people have people coaching them at every level from diet,exercise,the sport to managing the media why because it works...
I certainly dont claim to be the worlds greatest driver, and I have had some coaching, but then again I havent seen any of the guys who say its a waste of time on the F1 grid recently
one example of the indirect value of coaching was this..
In the taz we were a good midfield charger if a bit wayward. I had a bit of coaching that confirmed i was on the right track which gave me a bit more confidence. HE also drove the car and said there was a problem with the way the diff was working in the car... A change of Diff and the next season we took almost all the lap records and one th class...
At the time I didnt have enough experience to understand the problem was with the car and not my driving. which lead to over driving a poorly handling car. It took the coach about a hour to say what your trying to do is right but keep your head up, but there is a problem with the car.. eventually on my own i would have either worked it out or given up. That saved me a lot of time and money.
I still have the odd bit of coaching now and I've done a little for friends and sponsors and find both usefull for continuing the learning process.
motorsport is a hard enough game as it is, why make it harder trying to do it all by our self.
G
JP_Midget said:
Once I'm more settled with the car and being able to describe what is going on then I will be very much open to some coaching. This will be as budget allows, rather than increasing the budget to get more coaching as I'm in this as a hobby.
I think thats a very valid point. I think there are stages with coaching in any sport1) an introduction so you dont kill your self, you probably dont understand the concepts at this stage so in depth probably isnt worth it
2) more detailed when you understand what you are trying to do but not neccesarily how to do it
3) On going to confirm your heading in the right direction, weed out any bad habits, and trying for the last 1/100
Graham said:
Everytime I go out in a race car i learn something new. Every major sport has coaching and motorsport is no different. If you find a good coach it will bring you on much faster than without.
You do however need to be able to accept that coaching will help.. if you go in with a closed mind you will get nothing out of it other than an emptier bank balance...
Saying its point less is all bravado.. I read an article about the chap who ran the first 3 minute mile ( or whatever it was) at the time it had to appear as if you didnt put any effort into it and were just a natural. so did he do no training, of course he did plenty but all alone and at odd times so he wasnt seen...
Top sports people have people coaching them at every level from diet,exercise,the sport to managing the media why because it works...
I certainly dont claim to be the worlds greatest driver, and I have had some coaching, but then again I havent seen any of the guys who say its a waste of time on the F1 grid recently
one example of the indirect value of coaching was this..
In the taz we were a good midfield charger if a bit wayward. I had a bit of coaching that confirmed i was on the right track which gave me a bit more confidence. HE also drove the car and said there was a problem with the way the diff was working in the car... A change of Diff and the next season we took almost all the lap records and one th class...
At the time I didnt have enough experience to understand the problem was with the car and not my driving. which lead to over driving a poorly handling car. It took the coach about a hour to say what your trying to do is right but keep your head up, but there is a problem with the car.. eventually on my own i would have either worked it out or given up. That saved me a lot of time and money.
I still have the odd bit of coaching now and I've done a little for friends and sponsors and find both usefull for continuing the learning process.
motorsport is a hard enough game as it is, why make it harder trying to do it all by our self.
G
That's a jolly good point actually. Jackie Stewart said that "success only comes if you surround yourself with the right people", and it's true for all aspects of racing. Why struggle with the handling of your car when you can get someone to help out? Having just changed the car I race from a Metro to a Caterham, I'm looking not only for driving instruction, but also setup advice, as it's a strange and new car to me. I'd rather not spend 3 years learning everything myself (and probably never quite getting there), when I can get some help early on, and probably make some new friends as well.You do however need to be able to accept that coaching will help.. if you go in with a closed mind you will get nothing out of it other than an emptier bank balance...
Saying its point less is all bravado.. I read an article about the chap who ran the first 3 minute mile ( or whatever it was) at the time it had to appear as if you didnt put any effort into it and were just a natural. so did he do no training, of course he did plenty but all alone and at odd times so he wasnt seen...
Top sports people have people coaching them at every level from diet,exercise,the sport to managing the media why because it works...
I certainly dont claim to be the worlds greatest driver, and I have had some coaching, but then again I havent seen any of the guys who say its a waste of time on the F1 grid recently
one example of the indirect value of coaching was this..
In the taz we were a good midfield charger if a bit wayward. I had a bit of coaching that confirmed i was on the right track which gave me a bit more confidence. HE also drove the car and said there was a problem with the way the diff was working in the car... A change of Diff and the next season we took almost all the lap records and one th class...
At the time I didnt have enough experience to understand the problem was with the car and not my driving. which lead to over driving a poorly handling car. It took the coach about a hour to say what your trying to do is right but keep your head up, but there is a problem with the car.. eventually on my own i would have either worked it out or given up. That saved me a lot of time and money.
I still have the odd bit of coaching now and I've done a little for friends and sponsors and find both usefull for continuing the learning process.
motorsport is a hard enough game as it is, why make it harder trying to do it all by our self.
G
dsl2 said:
So to that end, any top recommendations for Radical coaching for a newboy to racing, not driven most of the tracks etc?
Phil Keen. I've worked with him for a couple of years as an engineer, but this year he has helped out with a couple of my (already promising) drivers and found them a good two seconds at every circuit.PM me if you like and I'll pass on his details.
This is quite funny, as there are a number of good coaches on here and most of us know a few people we can recommend.
I'd also highly recommend Nigel Greensall and Rob Barff. Worked with both and both are great guys.
Graham said:
one example of the indirect value of coaching was this..
In the taz we were a good midfield charger if a bit wayward. I had a bit of coaching that confirmed i was on the right track which gave me a bit more confidence. HE also drove the car and said there was a problem with the way the diff was working in the car... A change of Diff and the next season we took almost all the lap records and one th class...
At the time I didnt have enough experience to understand the problem was with the car and not my driving. which lead to over driving a poorly handling car. It took the coach about a hour to say what your trying to do is right but keep your head up, but there is a problem with the car.. eventually on my own i would have either worked it out or given up. That saved me a lot of time and money.
That is very, very important and a great point.In the taz we were a good midfield charger if a bit wayward. I had a bit of coaching that confirmed i was on the right track which gave me a bit more confidence. HE also drove the car and said there was a problem with the way the diff was working in the car... A change of Diff and the next season we took almost all the lap records and one th class...
At the time I didnt have enough experience to understand the problem was with the car and not my driving. which lead to over driving a poorly handling car. It took the coach about a hour to say what your trying to do is right but keep your head up, but there is a problem with the car.. eventually on my own i would have either worked it out or given up. That saved me a lot of time and money.
Hiring a pro for a day's testing (not just coaching) is far more worthwhile than you could imagine. A pro driver and a decent engineer can diagnose and transform a car to such an extent that an amateur would be stunned. Well worth the investment. I've worked with all sorts of guys with wildly varying talent levels over the years and a driver who can really feel what's going on underneath him is a rare commodity indeed.
Benefit!
I've had coaching for gearbox karts and it really paid off! the chap I used can just watch from the side of the track and tell you where you are losing time!
You have two options, test the karts/cars limits and crash so you find the limit or ask a top driver or coach what is possible! it's remarkable
what extra speed you can travel into and out of corners, same applies for braking. The first option would work out more.
Next year I'll be looking for some coaching when I race my Formula Vaxhall Lotus in Mono, but I'l lucky to know an ex F1 driver who has given me loads useful
infomation! *he wont touch gearbox karts* :-)
All depends on how serious you are and how much cash you have spare.
I've had coaching for gearbox karts and it really paid off! the chap I used can just watch from the side of the track and tell you where you are losing time!
You have two options, test the karts/cars limits and crash so you find the limit or ask a top driver or coach what is possible! it's remarkable
what extra speed you can travel into and out of corners, same applies for braking. The first option would work out more.
Next year I'll be looking for some coaching when I race my Formula Vaxhall Lotus in Mono, but I'l lucky to know an ex F1 driver who has given me loads useful
infomation! *he wont touch gearbox karts* :-)
All depends on how serious you are and how much cash you have spare.
Good thread this. Lot of sound stuff above.
I don’t want to blur the main message here that coaching/training is good and cost effective in saving lap time/going faster.
One further word of warning re pro-driver and engineer though.
I again do suggest only using those with proven track records. Engineers can be extremely opinionated and stubborn, so I suggest you’re safest working with those with a proven track record as far as is possible, of customer car work and satisfaction. If they set a car up and YOU can’t drive it, then it’s money wasted.
Be very clear by way of written brief, what you want to see before OKing the job.
I would stress the words ‘proven quality’ before parting with any cash on expert advice.
I don’t want to blur the main message here that coaching/training is good and cost effective in saving lap time/going faster.
One further word of warning re pro-driver and engineer though.
I again do suggest only using those with proven track records. Engineers can be extremely opinionated and stubborn, so I suggest you’re safest working with those with a proven track record as far as is possible, of customer car work and satisfaction. If they set a car up and YOU can’t drive it, then it’s money wasted.
Be very clear by way of written brief, what you want to see before OKing the job.
I would stress the words ‘proven quality’ before parting with any cash on expert advice.
ph123 said:
Good thread this. Lot of sound stuff above.
I don’t want to blur the main message here that coaching/training is good and cost effective in saving lap time/going faster.
One further word of warning re pro-driver and engineer though.
I again do suggest only using those with proven track records. Engineers can be extremely opinionated and stubborn, so I suggest you’re safest working with those with a proven track record as far as is possible, of customer car work and satisfaction. If they set a car up and YOU can’t drive it, then it’s money wasted.
Be very clear by way of written brief, what you want to see before OKing the job.
I would stress the words ‘proven quality’ before parting with any cash on expert advice.
I don’t want to blur the main message here that coaching/training is good and cost effective in saving lap time/going faster.
One further word of warning re pro-driver and engineer though.
I again do suggest only using those with proven track records. Engineers can be extremely opinionated and stubborn, so I suggest you’re safest working with those with a proven track record as far as is possible, of customer car work and satisfaction. If they set a car up and YOU can’t drive it, then it’s money wasted.
Be very clear by way of written brief, what you want to see before OKing the job.
I would stress the words ‘proven quality’ before parting with any cash on expert advice.
very true. See my post on instructional quality above.Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff