McLaren lawyer seeks Hamilton title at appeal

[jacobyte]

coetzeeh said:

jacobyte said:

npope said:

If LH wins then it must be nice to say you had a lawyer win you the title

If Williams and BMW hadn't cheated in the first place, LH may have finished higher up at Brazil and therefore would have won the Championship on the track.

If LH is granted the championship retrospectively, there is nobody to blame but BMW and Williams.

The fuel temp variance in question in the BMW and Williams would not have made any material differnce in their performance - and LH would not have overtaken them had their fuel temp been 3 deg higher at the point of refueling.

No chance of LH catching either BMW or Williams in question on the day.

So having 2mm oversized bargeboards, or being 2Kg underweight, despite not providing a significant advantage, should be allowed? The fact is that it sets a precedent, and opens the floodgates for more cheating. That is why rules are rules and should be strictly policed.

npope said:

MMM, McLaren Spying drivers did not have points removed so all should be fine fro KR, they cant have it both ways

The McLaren drivers were given immunity - you know that. Otherwise they would have been DQ'd as well, so it's irrelevant.

Edited by jacobyte on Thursday 15th November 14:18

[mark69sheer]

npope said:

mark69sheer said:

What happened to the original plan that three independent judges would make the ruling. Is this still the case.

It is judges from United States, Greece, Portugal and Czech Republic

Well if it runs along the lines of the Eurovision song contest it will be a hung vote.

The US will vote for McLaren

The Portuguese currently won't because of maddy egg on face time.

The Greeks wont . . they just wont

and the Czechs will . . thanks to immigration assistance.

so that will be 2 each..

so who has the casting vote?

[npope]

PW said:

npope said:

What happen to McLaren saying it was was nothing to do with the title, bad loosers or what!!

I don't understand this reasoning.

That it decides the title seems to be, to a lot of people, a good incentive to ignore the fact that two teams might have cheated, stick their heads' in the sand and pretend that nothing happened.

People would rather see a dishonest race result on track stand, rather than an honest one decided on appeal?

Would people suggest as strongly that the inquest should not go ahead if it were any other race, or any other result?

I agree with the inquest, but for McLaren to say it is for clarification of the rules but later to turn round and ask for the title that I don't agree with.
Yes the teams should be punished but not the drivers they did not ask for the fuel to be changed.

I think the FIA need to look at how they punish people make it easy if you are found to be cheating in anyway kick them out we cant keep having F1 in the court rooms it is killing the sport we all love.

We might not agree on teams\drivers that’s all the fun of the sport but I am sure we all think the sport is suffering.

[coetzeeh]

jacobyte said:

coetzeeh said:

jacobyte said:

npope said:

If LH wins then it must be nice to say you had a lawyer win you the title

If Williams and BMW hadn't cheated in the first place, LH may have finished higher up at Brazil and therefore would have won the Championship on the track.

If LH is granted the championship retrospectively, there is nobody to blame but BMW and Williams.

The fuel temp variance in question in the BMW and Williams would not have made any material differnce in their performance - and LH would not have overtaken them had their fuel temp been 3 deg higher at the point of refueling.

No chance of LH catching either BMW or Williams in question on the day.

So having 2mm oversized bargeboards, or being 2Kg underweight, despite not providing a significant advantage, should be allowed? The fact is that it sets a precedent, and opens the floodgates for more cheating. That is why rules are rules and should be strictly policed.

npope said:

MMM, McLaren Spying drivers did not have points removed so all should be fine fro KR, they cant have it both ways

The McLaren drivers were given immunity - you know that. Otherwise they would have been DQ'd as well, so it's irrelevant.

Edited by jacobyte on Thursday 15th November 14:18

I was merely commenting on the performance on the day as you said LH may have finished higher up the points board had BMW or Williams not cheated - not true, LH would not have caught them if the respective cars fuel temp was 3 deg higher - no chance.

[jacobyte]

Ah yes, I do agree with you on that point , but of course it is academic in the grander scheme of things.

[kevin ritson]

npope said:

PW said:

npope said:

What happen to McLaren saying it was was nothing to do with the title, bad loosers or what!!

I don't understand this reasoning.

That it decides the title seems to be, to a lot of people, a good incentive to ignore the fact that two teams might have cheated, stick their heads' in the sand and pretend that nothing happened.

People would rather see a dishonest race result on track stand, rather than an honest one decided on appeal?

Would people suggest as strongly that the inquest should not go ahead if it were any other race, or any other result?

I agree with the inquest, but for McLaren to say it is for clarification of the rules but later to turn round and ask for the title that I don't agree with.
Yes the teams should be punished but not the drivers they did not ask for the fuel to be changed.

I think the FIA need to look at how they punish people make it easy if you are found to be cheating in anyway kick them out we cant keep having F1 in the court rooms it is killing the sport we all love.

We might not agree on teams\drivers that’s all the fun of the sport but I am sure we all think the sport is suffering.

McLaren are asking for consistency in the rules, the fact is their lawyer will ask for points to be deducted leading to their driver winning because it's a bargaining position.

Personally I think we should be congratulating them for standing up and being counted, much as with the Renault situation. You can't make the odd example here and there and then forget about all other transgressions. Right now the perception is that the sport is less fair and more poisonous than at any other time in its history and that can't be a good thing. Simply papering over the cracks won't help.

[VladD]

npope said:

kevin ritson said:

npope said:

What happen to McLaren saying it was was nothing to do with the title, bad loosers or what!!


McLaren

He'd be a rubbish lawyer if he didn't ask for that!

Or perhaps you're worried you won't be able to claim Lewis 'chocked' (sic)?

i am not worried, KR won more races than LH fact, if the points system was more like in the Moto GP then there is more reason to win a race than finish secound or third. If LH wins then it must be nice to say you had a lawyer win you the title, its a bit like being a kid if I cant win myself I will get my dad to help me win with that ever it takes

So, what if the Williams and BMW had been DQ'd immediately after the race and LH was declared champion. What if Ferrari then decided to appeal. Would you be of the same opinion that you shouldn't have a lawyer win it for you?

[hornetrider]

I'm usually relatively benign on issues like this as F1 is becoming more and more of a show rather than a sport these days, imo.

But.

I've just read the BBC article related to this case and to be fair, I am raging!! There is a lawyer from Ferrari there, and he said the folllowing:

"It could be said McLaren are shameless hypocrites devoid of any integrity, or maybe what their representatives have said should be taken at face value.

"If what they want is clarity, then by all means let them have that, but do not allow them to have the world championship this way.

"It would be a serious injustice to Mr Raikkonen should the world title be taken away from him, a fact recognised by Mr Hamilton and Mr (Fernando) Alonso.

"As McLaren are fond of saying: 'The championship should be decided on the track and not in the courtroom'," he concluded.

I ask you.

WTF is a Ferrari lawyer doing at a trial whereby Williams and BMW are being judged for using illegal fuel????

Its a ing joke!

[Conian]

VladD said:

So, what if the Williams and BMW had been DQ'd immediately after the race and LH was declared champion. What if Ferrari then decided to appeal. Would you be of the same opinion that you shouldn't have a lawyer win it for you?

On Ph it works like this....

Ferrari do something naughty = Ferrari are the biggest cheats ever
McLaren do something naughty = Ferrari are the biggest cheats ever

I hope this helps you understand. Took me a while to twig it.

[williamp]

I just think this:

if this had happened during the year, rather then at the last race of the year then there would be no question of the appeal and the hearing. This should be the same throughout the year, it should not be different because there are no more races left.

[npope]

VladD said:

npope said:

kevin ritson said:

npope said:

What happen to McLaren saying it was was nothing to do with the title, bad loosers or what!!


McLaren

He'd be a rubbish lawyer if he didn't ask for that!

Or perhaps you're worried you won't be able to claim Lewis 'chocked' (sic)?

i am not worried, KR won more races than LH fact, if the points system was more like in the Moto GP then there is more reason to win a race than finish secound or third. If LH wins then it must be nice to say you had a lawyer win you the title, its a bit like being a kid if I cant win myself I will get my dad to help me win with that ever it takes

So, what if the Williams and BMW had been DQ'd immediately after the race and LH was declared champion. What if Ferrari then decided to appeal. Would you be of the same opinion that you shouldn't have a lawyer win it for you?

Sure, I think ferrari almost killed the sport with the spy case this year. yes I am a ferrari fan but above ferrari I am a F1 fan and for the love of the sport we should go racing. This year I have got more into BTCC and WTCC great racing a fun to watch.

[Scuffers]

williamp said:

I just think this:

if this had happened during the year, rather then at the last race of the year then there would be no question of the appeal and the hearing. This should be the same throughout the year, it should not be different because there are no more races left.

Exactly...

as for no advantage in cooling the fuel, if that's true, why chill it in the first place?

[VladD]

npope said:

VladD said:

npope said:

kevin ritson said:

npope said:

What happen to McLaren saying it was was nothing to do with the title, bad loosers or what!!


McLaren

He'd be a rubbish lawyer if he didn't ask for that!

Or perhaps you're worried you won't be able to claim Lewis 'chocked' (sic)?

i am not worried, KR won more races than LH fact, if the points system was more like in the Moto GP then there is more reason to win a race than finish secound or third. If LH wins then it must be nice to say you had a lawyer win you the title, its a bit like being a kid if I cant win myself I will get my dad to help me win with that ever it takes

So, what if the Williams and BMW had been DQ'd immediately after the race and LH was declared champion. What if Ferrari then decided to appeal. Would you be of the same opinion that you shouldn't have a lawyer win it for you?

Sure, I think ferrari almost killed the sport with the spy case this year. yes I am a ferrari fan but above ferrari I am a F1 fan and for the love of the sport we should go racing. This year I have got more into BTCC and WTCC great racing a fun to watch.

I'm glad to hear it. Do you also think that McLaren should be constructors champions?

[npope]

VladD said:

npope said:

VladD said:

npope said:

kevin ritson said:

npope said:

What happen to McLaren saying it was was nothing to do with the title, bad loosers or what!!


McLaren

He'd be a rubbish lawyer if he didn't ask for that!

Or perhaps you're worried you won't be able to claim Lewis 'chocked' (sic)?

i am not worried, KR won more races than LH fact, if the points system was more like in the Moto GP then there is more reason to win a race than finish secound or third. If LH wins then it must be nice to say you had a lawyer win you the title, its a bit like being a kid if I cant win myself I will get my dad to help me win with that ever it takes

So, what if the Williams and BMW had been DQ'd immediately after the race and LH was declared champion. What if Ferrari then decided to appeal. Would you be of the same opinion that you shouldn't have a lawyer win it for you?

Sure, I think ferrari almost killed the sport with the spy case this year. yes I am a ferrari fan but above ferrari I am a F1 fan and for the love of the sport we should go racing. This year I have got more into BTCC and WTCC great racing a fun to watch.

I'm glad to hear it. Do you also think that McLaren should be constructors champions?

maybe yes, don't think the detail info they had made them have a better car which they did. But they should have come forward once the info got out to more than just 1 person. Ferrari let them selves down in the first couple of races with reliability problems

[flemke]

Conian said:

VladD said:

So, what if the Williams and BMW had been DQ'd immediately after the race and LH was declared champion. What if Ferrari then decided to appeal. Would you be of the same opinion that you shouldn't have a lawyer win it for you?

On Ph it works like this....

Ferrari do something naughty = Ferrari are the biggest cheats ever
McLaren do something naughty = Ferrari are the biggest cheats ever

I hope this helps you understand. Took me a while to twig it.

At least you finally did.

[flemke]

npope said:

maybe yes, don't think the detail info they had made them have a better car which they did. But they should have come forward once the info got out to more than just 1 person. Ferrari let them selves down in the first couple of races with reliability problems

McLaren the team were not in the position to "come forward" because the only other persons who knew of the ongoing dialogue between Stepney and Coughlan were de la Rosa and Alonso, and they didn't tell anyone else.

Wrt Ferrari reliability in the first couple of races, Ferrari finished 1-2 in the opener in Australia.
You may recall that they won that race using the flexible floor that was banned a few days after the race.

Edited by flemke on Thursday 15th November 17:26

[AlexS]

hornetrider said:

I'm usually relatively benign on issues like this as F1 is becoming more and more of a show rather than a sport these days, imo.

But.

I've just read the BBC article related to this case and to be fair, I am raging!! There is a lawyer from Ferrari there, and he said the folllowing:

"It could be said McLaren are shameless hypocrites devoid of any integrity, or maybe what their representatives have said should be taken at face value.

"If what they want is clarity, then by all means let them have that, but do not allow them to have the world championship this way.

"It would be a serious injustice to Mr Raikkonen should the world title be taken away from him, a fact recognised by Mr Hamilton and Mr (Fernando) Alonso.

"As McLaren are fond of saying: 'The championship should be decided on the track and not in the courtroom'," he concluded.

I ask you.

WTF is a Ferrari lawyer doing at a trial whereby Williams and BMW are being judged for using illegal fuel????

Its a ing joke!

Didn't Ferrari win the constructors championship in the courtroom? (Well kangaroo court atleast).

[Casino]

flemke said:

npope said:

maybe yes, don't think the detail info they had made them have a better car which they did. But they should have come forward once the info got out to more than just 1 person. Ferrari let them selves down in the first couple of races with reliability problems

McLaren the team were not in the position to "come forward" because the only other persons who knew of the ongoing dialogue between Stepney and Coughlan were de la Rosa and Alonso, and they didn't tell anyone else.

Wrt Ferrari reliability in the first couple of races, Ferrari finished 1-2 in the opener in Australia.
You may recall that they won that race using the flexible floor that was banned a few days after the race.

Edited by flemke on Thursday 15th November 17:26

Ive had my arse royally kicked on other forums for stating that flexible floor etc is like speeding. The rule isnt so much DONT SPEED , its so much more DONT GET CAUGHT SPEEDING.
Same thing in F1...push the envelope as much as possible. Just dont get caught. If teams can get away with it they will put it on the car.If Ron could have kept his Ferrari skeletons hidden he would have, its just that ...he got caught.

Got to say, in the handful of races Ive been to Ive always been surprised at how well fans get on. All the different teams, all the different tribes, gallons of drink, mostly blazing hot afternoons and never a confrontation.(not that Ive seen anyway) I mean..could you imagine 12 footie teams and fans getting together on a Sunday afternoon?
Lately it seems if you be a Ferrari fan (ie not a McLaren/Hamilton fan) in here or other forums, folks wanna lay into you.Its like .."why dont you support your national team McLaren?,, Why do you cheer for those foreign lot ?" And Williams F1 never gets a mention.


(... is there an avatsr for getting ones butt booted.)

[nioks]

Heard plenty from the Ferrari and McLaren briefs. Does anyone know if the race scrutineers from Brazil were called to give evidence regarding their decision?

[RobbieMeister]

Ferrari at the hearing?


They were also in race control when the stewards were dicussing thier decision!!