Renault, McLaren and the FIA
Discussion
If it wasn't the FIA that came to this decision it would be unbelievable. However, unfortunately it was, so it isn't. What I find most frustrating though is the total lack of explanation from the FIA in terms of its last two verdicts that affect McLaren. We were told that their appeal in relation to the fuel irregularities at the Brazilian GP was "invalid" and now Renault are guilty but there is no punishment. Yet, in a typical show from Max in terms of sticking the knife into McLaren when the verdict against them was announced he was happy to explain why it was made and how history may judge that it was too lenient.
I hope I am proved wrong and Max will explain fully, personally, the reasons in the very near future, but unfortunately do not hold out much hope.
In the meantime, I intend to telephone the FIA to ask how to report, and bring about, a charge of bringing the sport into disrepute. The party causing the disrepute? A Mr. M. Mosley, currently the President of an organisation known as the Federation International Automobile. I guess they will hang up, but it has to be worth the cost of a few phone calls to France to hopefully get someone thinking.
I hope I am proved wrong and Max will explain fully, personally, the reasons in the very near future, but unfortunately do not hold out much hope.
In the meantime, I intend to telephone the FIA to ask how to report, and bring about, a charge of bringing the sport into disrepute. The party causing the disrepute? A Mr. M. Mosley, currently the President of an organisation known as the Federation International Automobile. I guess they will hang up, but it has to be worth the cost of a few phone calls to France to hopefully get someone thinking.
The FIA members are all 'paid for' by Max....who has sold out to Bernie...who has sold out to CVC partners who are struggling to finance their long term debt. Kicking Renault out or fining them was never on the cards especially when they want FA to drive in the championships next year and a French GP is back on the cards. The FIA is not a legal court and seems to do the complete opposite of what any logical committee would do.
This is the problem with F1. Not enough racing, not enough entertainment or the fans and viewers and too many 'old farts' and politics.
This is the problem with F1. Not enough racing, not enough entertainment or the fans and viewers and too many 'old farts' and politics.
So Renault are found guilty, but go unpunished?
Sorry, but that's it for me. The FIA and Ferrari love-in can do what they ******* like next seaon - I'm just not interested any more. Not content with ruining the most exciting season for years, now the 2008 is ****** too.
Compare and contrast:
James Allen
vs. Coxy & Stavros 
Steadycam following Martin Brundle
vs. Steadycam following Suzi Perry 
Sorry, but that's it for me. The FIA and Ferrari love-in can do what they ******* like next seaon - I'm just not interested any more. Not content with ruining the most exciting season for years, now the 2008 is ****** too.
Compare and contrast:
James Allen
vs. Coxy & Stavros Steadycam following Martin Brundle
vs. Steadycam following Suzi Perry Don't know why you are discussing it.
They don't care about the likes of us.
They only care about the TV ratings and they are not driven by people who love motor racing> They are driven by people who want to see someone win because thier Dad or Auntie came from the same country and thier lives are so sad and empty that they hang on to the success of someone else buy some obscure connection that makes them feel good becasue they can make some tenuous association.
It's tribal
ing boocks. And the Pied Piper of FoM has got them (and you?) by the boocks.
I for one have had enough (after nearly 50 years) of F1. Anything that is associated with the FIA is off limits for me in the future.
VLN and Le Mans - please don't tell me they are sanctioned by the FIA................
They don't care about the likes of us.
They only care about the TV ratings and they are not driven by people who love motor racing> They are driven by people who want to see someone win because thier Dad or Auntie came from the same country and thier lives are so sad and empty that they hang on to the success of someone else buy some obscure connection that makes them feel good becasue they can make some tenuous association.
It's tribal
ing boocks. And the Pied Piper of FoM has got them (and you?) by the boocks.I for one have had enough (after nearly 50 years) of F1. Anything that is associated with the FIA is off limits for me in the future.
VLN and Le Mans - please don't tell me they are sanctioned by the FIA................
The FIA have their offices in Paris , , Renault are French????
I predict a Big Greek woman playing a ukelele and whistling while singing about a lost Goat called Hampton will win next years FI championship.
either that or she will win The Eurovision song contest
either way it matters not.
I couldn't give a shit.
Its sad not to be able to watch Lewis kick Alonso's greasy arse but I don't want to play gullible muppet next year so
in the words of Peter Jones,
and for that reason. . I'm out!
I predict a Big Greek woman playing a ukelele and whistling while singing about a lost Goat called Hampton will win next years FI championship.
either that or she will win The Eurovision song contest
either way it matters not.
I couldn't give a shit.
Its sad not to be able to watch Lewis kick Alonso's greasy arse but I don't want to play gullible muppet next year so
in the words of Peter Jones,
and for that reason. . I'm out!
jamieboy said:
Wh00sher said:
I`m stunned. I just cant understand it !!
Renault have escaped punishment for their role in the spy scandal, being found in unauthorised possession of confidential technical information belonging to McLaren, the Council have decided not to impose any sanctions on the team.
--
McLaren in July were found guilty of being in unauthorised possession of technical information belonging to Ferrari, which led to a sporting record £50million fine, while the team were stripped of all constructors' points for 2007.
Remember that there were two cases involving McLaren.Renault have escaped punishment for their role in the spy scandal, being found in unauthorised possession of confidential technical information belonging to McLaren, the Council have decided not to impose any sanctions on the team.
--
McLaren in July were found guilty of being in unauthorised possession of technical information belonging to Ferrari, which led to a sporting record £50million fine, while the team were stripped of all constructors' points for 2007.
At the first, where they were found to have information they should not have had but there was no evidence that they'd used it, they got off without punishment.
It was only after the second case, where (in the FIA's view) there was evidence that they'd used it, that they got punished.
It's difficult to know until we've seen the transcripts, but if Renault was found to have the data but not to have made any use of it, then it's the same as the first McLaren hearing, hence the same punishment. Isn't it?
The answer, I think you will find, is "None".
Indeed, the FIA's entire second verdict rested on what they themselves admitted were mere suggestions, suspicions and (speculated) likelihoods that - in the very absence of any hard proof that any Ferrari IP had been abused - McLaren may have taken advantage of what Stepney had given one of their employees.
nioks said:
Spot on. I don't like it, but spot on. Heard on R5 that Herbie Blash made a visit to Enstone on Tuesday, and found that next years car to be 'all clear'. Hence the verdict will show that no use was made of the info, and the same non-punishment implimented.
Ah yes - the noted aerodynamicist Herbie Blash drops in for a quick once-over, sees nothing out of order in his boss's best friend's car, and that should prove to the world that the R5 is pure Renault.
Somehow that does not quite seem equal to an FIA professional tech team's spending days poring over every inch of a disassembled MP4-23.
I don't know anything that is not within the public domain, but it seems most likely that:
- It is no coincidence that the WMSC Renault hearing was held the day before the WMSC's decision on whether the 2008 McLaren is legal.
- Briatore told his pals Bernie and Max that, if Renault were hit with a big penalty, the carmaker would probably leave F1.
- Renault's departure would take a 22 car grid down to 20, with Toro Rosso and Super Aguri at some risk as well. Renault's quitting would be acutely bad press, and could conceivably encourage the same action by other big carmakers who have been pouring hundreds of millions down the F1 rathole with nothing to show for it.
- Max and Bernie, keenly wishing Renault to stay, then had communicated to McLaren:
- It's simple, Ron: if you want us to declare your '08 car "legal", you'll have to live with our giving Renault a "guilty, but no punishment" verdict, in 'the best interests of the sport', of course. Do we understand each other?".
As I say, I don't know for a fact that something like this happened, but, then again, I can't be absolutely sure that tomorrow morning the sun will rise.
- It is no coincidence that the WMSC Renault hearing was held the day before the WMSC's decision on whether the 2008 McLaren is legal.
- Briatore told his pals Bernie and Max that, if Renault were hit with a big penalty, the carmaker would probably leave F1.
- Renault's departure would take a 22 car grid down to 20, with Toro Rosso and Super Aguri at some risk as well. Renault's quitting would be acutely bad press, and could conceivably encourage the same action by other big carmakers who have been pouring hundreds of millions down the F1 rathole with nothing to show for it.
- Max and Bernie, keenly wishing Renault to stay, then had communicated to McLaren:
- It's simple, Ron: if you want us to declare your '08 car "legal", you'll have to live with our giving Renault a "guilty, but no punishment" verdict, in 'the best interests of the sport', of course. Do we understand each other?".
As I say, I don't know for a fact that something like this happened, but, then again, I can't be absolutely sure that tomorrow morning the sun will rise.
All the reports Ihave read are saying that the case against Reanualt has gone the same way as the frst hearing against McLaren as the cases are almost the same, this is the point at which I disagree.
The first hearing found McLaren guilty of 1 member of staff (Coughlin) possesing Ferrari IP, but with insufficient evidence to say that he had used it or in fact distributed it to anyone else in the team, therefore no penalty imposed on the team.
The second hearing (brough about by an appeal against an un-appealable decision) found that Coughlin had in fact distributed the information from Ferrari to other members of the team including the drivers and other engineers.
The case against Renault APPEARS to be on the same level as the second McLaren hearing, with (admitedly, only from McLarens statement, but after approval and request for change from the FIA) several engineers seeing the information that the ex McLaren employee had, and that it had been loaded onto the Renault computer network.
The thing I find hard to understand is that McLaren were given the mother of all fines and removed from the constructors championship because a few members of the team had spoken (email and sms also) about the information from ferrari, yet Renault get a guilty verdict but with no penalty when (it would appear) more members of their engineering team saw or had access to the McLaren data. Remember, McLaren were not found to have gained an advantage from the Ferrari information, but just that people had spoken about it.
How can the FIA, and especially Mad Max expect us, the watchers of the sport to take the sport seriously now when they dont seem to take any notice of the evidence given to them and act with any consistency, but look at the team involved, consider the consequences of imposing a fine on the sports ability to make them (FIA, Max and Bernie) the money they need, and rule on that. it was widely reported before this hearing that Renault had threatened to leave were they to have received a hefty fine and/or disqualification.
The first hearing found McLaren guilty of 1 member of staff (Coughlin) possesing Ferrari IP, but with insufficient evidence to say that he had used it or in fact distributed it to anyone else in the team, therefore no penalty imposed on the team.
The second hearing (brough about by an appeal against an un-appealable decision) found that Coughlin had in fact distributed the information from Ferrari to other members of the team including the drivers and other engineers.
The case against Renault APPEARS to be on the same level as the second McLaren hearing, with (admitedly, only from McLarens statement, but after approval and request for change from the FIA) several engineers seeing the information that the ex McLaren employee had, and that it had been loaded onto the Renault computer network.
The thing I find hard to understand is that McLaren were given the mother of all fines and removed from the constructors championship because a few members of the team had spoken (email and sms also) about the information from ferrari, yet Renault get a guilty verdict but with no penalty when (it would appear) more members of their engineering team saw or had access to the McLaren data. Remember, McLaren were not found to have gained an advantage from the Ferrari information, but just that people had spoken about it.
How can the FIA, and especially Mad Max expect us, the watchers of the sport to take the sport seriously now when they dont seem to take any notice of the evidence given to them and act with any consistency, but look at the team involved, consider the consequences of imposing a fine on the sports ability to make them (FIA, Max and Bernie) the money they need, and rule on that. it was widely reported before this hearing that Renault had threatened to leave were they to have received a hefty fine and/or disqualification.
I think this article sums it up very nicely:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19917.html
I Just wonder if Maclaren have anything left in hte tank for another fight, or whether they have come to the comclusion that whatever they do, they will get royally shafted.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19917.html
I Just wonder if Maclaren have anything left in hte tank for another fight, or whether they have come to the comclusion that whatever they do, they will get royally shafted.
flemke said:
I don't know anything that is not within the public domain, but it seems most likely that:
- It is no coincidence that the WMSC Renault hearing was held the day before the WMSC's decision on whether the 2008 McLaren is legal.
- Briatore told his pals Bernie and Max that, if Renault were hit with a big penalty, the carmaker would probably leave F1.
- Renault's departure would take a 22 car grid down to 20, with Toro Rosso and Super Aguri at some risk as well. Renault's quitting would be acutely bad press, and could conceivably encourage the same action by other big carmakers who have been pouring hundreds of millions down the F1 rathole with nothing to show for it.
- Max and Bernie, keenly wishing Renault to stay, then had communicated to McLaren:
- It's simple, Ron: if you want us to declare your '08 car "legal", you'll have to live with our giving Renault a "guilty, but no punishment" verdict, in 'the best interests of the sport', of course. Do we understand each other?".
As I say, I don't know for a fact that something like this happened, but, then again, I can't be absolutely sure that tomorrow morning the sun will rise.
That must be as spot on as it gets, most of us won't ever know any more than that, but thinking about it from a commercial perspective, how much more is there to find out?- It is no coincidence that the WMSC Renault hearing was held the day before the WMSC's decision on whether the 2008 McLaren is legal.
- Briatore told his pals Bernie and Max that, if Renault were hit with a big penalty, the carmaker would probably leave F1.
- Renault's departure would take a 22 car grid down to 20, with Toro Rosso and Super Aguri at some risk as well. Renault's quitting would be acutely bad press, and could conceivably encourage the same action by other big carmakers who have been pouring hundreds of millions down the F1 rathole with nothing to show for it.
- Max and Bernie, keenly wishing Renault to stay, then had communicated to McLaren:
- It's simple, Ron: if you want us to declare your '08 car "legal", you'll have to live with our giving Renault a "guilty, but no punishment" verdict, in 'the best interests of the sport', of course. Do we understand each other?".
As I say, I don't know for a fact that something like this happened, but, then again, I can't be absolutely sure that tomorrow morning the sun will rise.
flemke said:
- It is no coincidence that the WMSC Renault hearing was held the day before the WMSC's decision on whether the 2008 McLaren is legal.
- It's simple, Ron: if you want us to declare your '08 car "legal", you'll have to live with our giving Renault a "guilty, but no punishment" verdict, in 'the best interests of the sport', of course. Do we understand each other?".
I completely agree, but with one addenda: McLaren will most likely be found guilty of having Ferrari IP on their car anyway.- It's simple, Ron: if you want us to declare your '08 car "legal", you'll have to live with our giving Renault a "guilty, but no punishment" verdict, in 'the best interests of the sport', of course. Do we understand each other?".
FIA inspector: "Hmm, four wheels, wing at the front, wing at the back, V8 engine...yep, this contains confidential Ferrari IP - it's illegal. That'll be $100m please, Ron."
AKA8 said:
flemke said:
I don't know anything that is not within the public domain, but it seems most likely that:
- It is no coincidence that the WMSC Renault hearing was held the day before the WMSC's decision on whether the 2008 McLaren is legal.
- Briatore told his pals Bernie and Max that, if Renault were hit with a big penalty, the carmaker would probably leave F1.
- Renault's departure would take a 22 car grid down to 20, with Toro Rosso and Super Aguri at some risk as well. Renault's quitting would be acutely bad press, and could conceivably encourage the same action by other big carmakers who have been pouring hundreds of millions down the F1 rathole with nothing to show for it.
- Max and Bernie, keenly wishing Renault to stay, then had communicated to McLaren:
- It's simple, Ron: if you want us to declare your '08 car "legal", you'll have to live with our giving Renault a "guilty, but no punishment" verdict, in 'the best interests of the sport', of course. Do we understand each other?".
As I say, I don't know for a fact that something like this happened, but, then again, I can't be absolutely sure that tomorrow morning the sun will rise.
That must be as spot on as it gets, most of us won't ever know any more than that, but thinking about it from a commercial perspective, how much more is there to find out?- It is no coincidence that the WMSC Renault hearing was held the day before the WMSC's decision on whether the 2008 McLaren is legal.
- Briatore told his pals Bernie and Max that, if Renault were hit with a big penalty, the carmaker would probably leave F1.
- Renault's departure would take a 22 car grid down to 20, with Toro Rosso and Super Aguri at some risk as well. Renault's quitting would be acutely bad press, and could conceivably encourage the same action by other big carmakers who have been pouring hundreds of millions down the F1 rathole with nothing to show for it.
- Max and Bernie, keenly wishing Renault to stay, then had communicated to McLaren:
- It's simple, Ron: if you want us to declare your '08 car "legal", you'll have to live with our giving Renault a "guilty, but no punishment" verdict, in 'the best interests of the sport', of course. Do we understand each other?".
As I say, I don't know for a fact that something like this happened, but, then again, I can't be absolutely sure that tomorrow morning the sun will rise.
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