Discussion
It's sometimes said that in 1986, the late and very great Henri Toivonen lapped the Estoril circuit in his Delta S4 group B rally car as fast as a contemporary Formula 1 car; in fact at a pace that would have put him sixth on the grid for the GP that year. It's mentioned in this thread:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and it's cropped up again in EVO magazine this month!
Surely this can't be true? F1 cars are horrendously powerful, with full-on aerodynamics, huge grippy slick tyres, very low CofG and monsterous brakes. No matter how I look at it, I just can't see a rally car getting anywhere near an F1 car's times around a GP circuit.
Can anyone shed any light on this story? Was F1 qualifying wet that year? What spec was the S4 in when it lapped Estoril? Has there been some mistake with a shortened version of the track? I've found threads from other forums that suggest the GP was dry and it was indeed the full GP track that Henri had a crack at.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and it's cropped up again in EVO magazine this month!
Surely this can't be true? F1 cars are horrendously powerful, with full-on aerodynamics, huge grippy slick tyres, very low CofG and monsterous brakes. No matter how I look at it, I just can't see a rally car getting anywhere near an F1 car's times around a GP circuit.
Can anyone shed any light on this story? Was F1 qualifying wet that year? What spec was the S4 in when it lapped Estoril? Has there been some mistake with a shortened version of the track? I've found threads from other forums that suggest the GP was dry and it was indeed the full GP track that Henri had a crack at.
one of the 'takes' that i've heard about this story comes from Hannu Mikkola, in the video 'too fast too race'.
It goes somthing like this, that an Audi Quattro was testing on a gravel track approximately the same length as estoril, and covered that a stretch of gravel in the same time as a grand prix car of the day lapped the circuit.
In summary not quite what has gone into folklore about a group b car lapping a gp circuit at a time good enough to qualify...
however this could all be bollox, i'll try and watch the video tonight to find out exactly what he said..
It goes somthing like this, that an Audi Quattro was testing on a gravel track approximately the same length as estoril, and covered that a stretch of gravel in the same time as a grand prix car of the day lapped the circuit.
In summary not quite what has gone into folklore about a group b car lapping a gp circuit at a time good enough to qualify...
however this could all be bollox, i'll try and watch the video tonight to find out exactly what he said..
RobM77 said:
It's sometimes said that in 1986, the late and very great Henri Toivonen lapped the Estoril circuit in his Delta S4 group B rally car as fast as a contemporary Formula 1 car; in fact at a pace that would have put him sixth on the grid for the GP that year. It's mentioned in this thread:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and it's cropped up again in EVO magazine this month!
Surely this can't be true? F1 cars are horrendously powerful, with full-on aerodynamics, huge grippy slick tyres, very low CofG and monsterous brakes. No matter how I look at it, I just can't see a rally car getting anywhere near an F1 car's times around a GP circuit.
Can anyone shed any light on this story? Was F1 qualifying wet that year? What spec was the S4 in when it lapped Estoril? Has there been some mistake with a shortened version of the track? I've found threads from other forums that suggest the GP was dry and it was indeed the full GP track that Henri had a crack at.
Henri set the time in the short version of the track during a tarmac test, 1.4 sec slower than Senna's pole time.http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and it's cropped up again in EVO magazine this month!
Surely this can't be true? F1 cars are horrendously powerful, with full-on aerodynamics, huge grippy slick tyres, very low CofG and monsterous brakes. No matter how I look at it, I just can't see a rally car getting anywhere near an F1 car's times around a GP circuit.
Can anyone shed any light on this story? Was F1 qualifying wet that year? What spec was the S4 in when it lapped Estoril? Has there been some mistake with a shortened version of the track? I've found threads from other forums that suggest the GP was dry and it was indeed the full GP track that Henri had a crack at.
Edited by Jungles on Monday 10th December 13:14
Jungles said:
RobM77 said:
It's sometimes said that in 1986, the late and very great Henri Toivonen lapped the Estoril circuit in his Delta S4 group B rally car as fast as a contemporary Formula 1 car; in fact at a pace that would have put him sixth on the grid for the GP that year. It's mentioned in this thread:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and it's cropped up again in EVO magazine this month!
Surely this can't be true? F1 cars are horrendously powerful, with full-on aerodynamics, huge grippy slick tyres, very low CofG and monsterous brakes. No matter how I look at it, I just can't see a rally car getting anywhere near an F1 car's times around a GP circuit.
Can anyone shed any light on this story? Was F1 qualifying wet that year? What spec was the S4 in when it lapped Estoril? Has there been some mistake with a shortened version of the track? I've found threads from other forums that suggest the GP was dry and it was indeed the full GP track that Henri had a crack at.
Henri set the time in the short version of the track during a tarmac test, 1.4 sec slower than Senna's pole time.http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and it's cropped up again in EVO magazine this month!
Surely this can't be true? F1 cars are horrendously powerful, with full-on aerodynamics, huge grippy slick tyres, very low CofG and monsterous brakes. No matter how I look at it, I just can't see a rally car getting anywhere near an F1 car's times around a GP circuit.
Can anyone shed any light on this story? Was F1 qualifying wet that year? What spec was the S4 in when it lapped Estoril? Has there been some mistake with a shortened version of the track? I've found threads from other forums that suggest the GP was dry and it was indeed the full GP track that Henri had a crack at.
Edited by Jungles on Monday 10th December 13:14
It's an urban myth I think.
The only tidbits of info I managed to dig up that actually made some sense is that the Lancia team used Estoril for tarmac testing in 1986, and Henri set 1:18.1 over the short layout of the circuit.
The Estoril track was not one of the timed stages for the 1986 Rally of Portugal, from what I've read. The track was featured, but not officially competed on.
Senna did 1:16.7 during qualifying.
I'm not sure about the authenticity of the "6th on the grid" thing. I've also read 3rd as well.
The only tidbits of info I managed to dig up that actually made some sense is that the Lancia team used Estoril for tarmac testing in 1986, and Henri set 1:18.1 over the short layout of the circuit.
The Estoril track was not one of the timed stages for the 1986 Rally of Portugal, from what I've read. The track was featured, but not officially competed on.
Senna did 1:16.7 during qualifying.
I'm not sure about the authenticity of the "6th on the grid" thing. I've also read 3rd as well.
Edited by Jungles on Monday 10th December 13:35
Jungles said:
It's an urban myth I think.
The only tidbits of info I managed to dig up that actually made some sense is that the Lancia team used Estoril for tarmac testing in 1986, and Henri set 1:18.1 over the short layout of the circuit.
The Estoril track was not one of the timed stages for the 1986 Rally of Portugal, from what I've read.
Senna did 1:16.7 during qualifying.
I'm not sure about the authenticity of the "6th on the grid" thing. I've also read 3rd as well.
This would be a good one for Mythbusters The only tidbits of info I managed to dig up that actually made some sense is that the Lancia team used Estoril for tarmac testing in 1986, and Henri set 1:18.1 over the short layout of the circuit.
The Estoril track was not one of the timed stages for the 1986 Rally of Portugal, from what I've read.
Senna did 1:16.7 during qualifying.
I'm not sure about the authenticity of the "6th on the grid" thing. I've also read 3rd as well.
I vote for Sébastien Loeb in the S4 and I think we should pull Mansell out of retirement to drive the 1986 Williams It does sound like a complete myth to be honest, although it surprised me to see it written in EVO magazine without a thought given to the authenticity of the claim - I think the letter's page will feature it next month!
RobM77 said:
It does sound like a complete myth to be honest, although it surprised me to see it written in EVO magazine without a thought given to the authenticity of the claim
I was surprised to read it in EVO too. As said, it just does'nt seem to add up that the S4 could be that quick 
Love reading about the Group B era though; rallying was absolutely nuts back then!
RobM77 said:
Also, was 6th on the grid really 1.4 seconds slower than Senna's pole? Seems like a rather large margin.
Tried to find out but neither Wikipedia, nor the FOM websibe, nor the Autocourse website have the qualifying times for that GP. The whole thing seems quite implausible to me.I should add that the rally of Portugal was in March, and the Portuguese GP was in September (5 months after Henri's accident), so it's probable that the two events would have been linked innacurately, especially given that Henri's lap wasn't in competition, just in testing.
The Wikipedia entry for Henri makes the claim too, and lists the following two references for it:
http://www.sligoweekender.ie/news/story/?trs=qlkfk...
http://cars.uk.msn.com/News/Top_ten_article.aspx?c...
The Wikipedia entry for Henri makes the claim too, and lists the following two references for it:
http://www.sligoweekender.ie/news/story/?trs=qlkfk...
http://cars.uk.msn.com/News/Top_ten_article.aspx?c...
SamHH said:
RobM77 said:
Also, was 6th on the grid really 1.4 seconds slower than Senna's pole? Seems like a rather large margin.
Tried to find out but neither Wikipedia, nor the FOM websibe, nor the Autocourse website have the qualifying times for that GP. The whole thing seems quite implausible to me.RobM77 said:
Oh, err, and it was Mansell that got pole that year...
Mansell won, Senna got pole. Video here:http://grandprixarchives.wordpress.com/category/19...
I should also add that the minimum weight for Group B at that time was 890kg, and the S4 officially had 550bhp (although it maybe had more). This gave it 618bhp/tonne. The thought of driving a car with that amount of power flat out through the stages is quite scary! Nevertheless, the Williams F1 car of the same year had 800bhp and weighed 540kg, thus having a power to weight ratio of nearly 1500bhp/tonne. I know back then some teams had qualifying engines with considerable extra power over 1000bhp (which were later banned), but I can't find any references on the web regarding 1986. Needless to say, the combination of this immense power with brakes and aerodynamics way in advance of a rally car would mean that the F1 car would surely be much much faster.
Sources:
F1 car data: http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/1425/Williams-F...
S4 data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_Delta_S4
Sources:
F1 car data: http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/1425/Williams-F...
S4 data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_Delta_S4
SamHH said:
RobM77 said:
Oh, err, and it was Mansell that got pole that year...
Mansell won, Senna got pole. Video here:http://grandprixarchives.wordpress.com/category/19...
stockhatcher said:
one of the 'takes' that i've heard about this story comes from Hannu Mikkola, in the video 'too fast too race'.
It goes somthing like this, that an Audi Quattro was testing on a gravel track approximately the same length as estoril, and covered that a stretch of gravel in the same time as a grand prix car of the day lapped the circuit.
In summary not quite what has gone into folklore about a group b car lapping a gp circuit at a time good enough to qualify...
however this could all be bollox, i'll try and watch the video tonight to find out exactly what he said..
video here It goes somthing like this, that an Audi Quattro was testing on a gravel track approximately the same length as estoril, and covered that a stretch of gravel in the same time as a grand prix car of the day lapped the circuit.
In summary not quite what has gone into folklore about a group b car lapping a gp circuit at a time good enough to qualify...
however this could all be bollox, i'll try and watch the video tonight to find out exactly what he said..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYhiJeRPgdw
great cars ................having said that in 1970 a Ford Capri mk 1 Perana lapped the Kyalami circuit 8 seconds off the F1 lap record !!!
.The car made its debut in January 1970 and was on pole position with the fastest ever saloon car time around Kyalami. It proceeded to win the race by almost three quarter of a lap and recorded a lap time of 1min 36sec which was only 8sec slower than the then Formula 1 lap record.
DBSV8 said:
stockhatcher said:
one of the 'takes' that i've heard about this story comes from Hannu Mikkola, in the video 'too fast too race'.
It goes somthing like this, that an Audi Quattro was testing on a gravel track approximately the same length as estoril, and covered that a stretch of gravel in the same time as a grand prix car of the day lapped the circuit.
In summary not quite what has gone into folklore about a group b car lapping a gp circuit at a time good enough to qualify...
however this could all be bollox, i'll try and watch the video tonight to find out exactly what he said..
video here It goes somthing like this, that an Audi Quattro was testing on a gravel track approximately the same length as estoril, and covered that a stretch of gravel in the same time as a grand prix car of the day lapped the circuit.
In summary not quite what has gone into folklore about a group b car lapping a gp circuit at a time good enough to qualify...
however this could all be bollox, i'll try and watch the video tonight to find out exactly what he said..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYhiJeRPgdw
great cars ................having said that in 1970 a Ford Capri mk 1 Perana lapped the Kyalami circuit 8 seconds off the F1 lap record !!!
.The car made its debut in January 1970 and was on pole position with the fastest ever saloon car time around Kyalami. It proceeded to win the race by almost three quarter of a lap and recorded a lap time of 1min 36sec which was only 8sec slower than the then Formula 1 lap record.
sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_South_African_Gr...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_South_African_Gr...
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 10th December 16:55
There's a few videos of a saloon car, rally car and F1 car doing a circuit at the same time but with a staggered start time - allowing for editorial licence (i.e. get the cars to finish in order but just) - it showed how quick an F1 is around a track than even a rally car - one or two seconds is quite far at speeds of 180mph but I think the time differential was in the region of twenty/thirty seconds between cars.
The vids out there somewhere in YouTube land.
Play rFactor (fairly accurate) with AI for both and see the difference...
The vids out there somewhere in YouTube land.
Play rFactor (fairly accurate) with AI for both and see the difference...
Edited by andy_s on Monday 10th December 17:28
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