Group B vs F1

[10 Pence Short]

The current rally cars are much faster around corners than the old group B ones, as far as I'm aware.

I wathed a demonstration of the old Group B Quattro getting it's arse handed to it by a modern Focus WRC over a figure of 8 course.

[Ahonen]

10 Pence Short said:

The current rally cars are much faster around corners than the old group B ones, as far as I'm aware.

I wathed a demonstration of the old Group B Quattro getting it's arse handed to it by a modern Focus WRC over a figure of 8 course.

I should hope so after 20 years of progress. A Group B Quattro was much closer to a Quattro road car than a WRC car is to a road car. Last year's Autosport Rally GB supplement had a Marko Martin track test of various old rally cars - and he rated the Quattro as his favourite, despite its challenging handling, because it was so utterly insane.

It'd be fascinating to equip a Gr.B car with the modern transmission, engine control and dampers that are on WRC cars, just to see how fast they could go. Probably still not quite WRC pace, but much more drivable than they were in their heyday.

[Baldylocks]

Ahonen said:

10 Pence Short said:

The current rally cars are much faster around corners than the old group B ones, as far as I'm aware.

I wathed a demonstration of the old Group B Quattro getting it's arse handed to it by a modern Focus WRC over a figure of 8 course.

I should hope so after 20 years of progress. A Group B Quattro was much closer to a Quattro road car than a WRC car is to a road car. Last year's Autosport Rally GB supplement had a Marko Martin track test of various old rally cars - and he rated the Quattro as his favourite, despite its challenging handling, because it was so utterly insane.

It'd be fascinating to equip a Gr.B car with the modern transmission, engine control and dampers that are on WRC cars, just to see how fast they could go. Probably still not quite WRC pace, but much more drivable than they were in their heyday.

Or even equiping Loebs Citroen with a 600bhp motor

Another thing that should be bared in mind when comparing Grp B and contemporary WRC cars is that the stages were much different back then; much longer with more sections where really high speeds were achievable. I think another change when Grp B was scrapped was an attempt to improve safety by making the stages more technical, therefore favouring handling more.

[stockhatcher]

these threads always end up like this....

for me rally cars nowadays has to have the restrictors removed, and then have some junk tyres on it, that would make it much spectacular... you know safety has improved, both active ( hans, stronger cages) and passive ( better medical cover, speccies not standing on the edge of corners anymore) the IRC instead of follwing the s2000 boocks just needs to run derestricted wrc cars... job done.


oh and bring back marathon rallies... RAC '85 anyone?

[aeropilot]

Baldylocks said:

Ahonen said:

10 Pence Short said:

The current rally cars are much faster around corners than the old group B ones, as far as I'm aware.

I wathed a demonstration of the old Group B Quattro getting it's arse handed to it by a modern Focus WRC over a figure of 8 course.

I should hope so after 20 years of progress. A Group B Quattro was much closer to a Quattro road car than a WRC car is to a road car. Last year's Autosport Rally GB supplement had a Marko Martin track test of various old rally cars - and he rated the Quattro as his favourite, despite its challenging handling, because it was so utterly insane.

It'd be fascinating to equip a Gr.B car with the modern transmission, engine control and dampers that are on WRC cars, just to see how fast they could go. Probably still not quite WRC pace, but much more drivable than they were in their heyday.

Or even equiping Loebs Citroen with a 600bhp motor

Another thing that should be bared in mind when comparing Grp B and contemporary WRC cars is that the stages were much different back then; much longer with more sections where really high speeds were achievable.

Another thing is the current WRC engines, because of the turbo restrictors, is that they are tuned for huge torque and a very flat torque curve which with the transmission advances makes them soooo much quicker than a peakier higher hp Group B machine.

Anyway, Group B sucks, late 70's Group 4 was the pinnicle of real rallying.....

[Mojocvh]

andy_s said:

There's a few videos of a saloon car, rally car and F1 car doing a circuit at the same time but with a staggered start time - allowing for editorial licence (i.e. get the cars to finish in order but just) - it showed how quick an F1 is around a track than even a rally car - one or two seconds is quite far at speeds of 180mph but I think the time differential was in the region of twenty/thirty seconds between cars.

The vids out there somewhere in YouTube land.

Play rFactor (fairly accurate) with AI for both and see the difference...

Edited by andy_s on Monday 10th December 17:28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgzAsAiWlW8 

I think of it showing colin in a slightly different light...

Edited by Mojocvh on Monday 10th December 20:37

[SuperKartRacer]

RobM77 said:

It's sometimes said that in 1986, the late and very great Henri Toivonen lapped the Estoril circuit in his Delta S4 group B rally car as fast as a contemporary Formula 1 car; in fact at a pace that would have put him sixth on the grid for the GP that year. It's mentioned in this thread:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

and it's cropped up again in EVO magazine this month!

Surely this can't be true? F1 cars are horrendously powerful, with full-on aerodynamics, huge grippy slick tyres, very low CofG and monsterous brakes. No matter how I look at it, I just can't see a rally car getting anywhere near an F1 car's times around a GP circuit.

Can anyone shed any light on this story? Was F1 qualifying wet that year? What spec was the S4 in when it lapped Estoril? Has there been some mistake with a shortened version of the track? I've found threads from other forums that suggest the GP was dry and it was indeed the full GP track that Henri had a crack at.

Superkart would also have done that back then

[mat205125]

Baldylocks said:

RobM77 said:

It does sound like a complete myth to be honest, although it surprised me to see it written in EVO magazine without a thought given to the authenticity of the claim

I was surprised to read it in EVO too. As said, it just does'nt seem to add up that the S4 could be that quick

Love reading about the Group B era though; rallying was absolutely nuts back then!

I also spotted the mention of toivennen in the piece that bov wrote about the integrale. Sadly Henri is unlikely to have ever competed in an integrale.

[aeropilot]

mat205125 said:

Sadly Henri is unlikely to have ever competed in an integrale.

Unlikey is a good word considering the Intergrale didn't exist when Henri (and Sergio) were killed in 1986.

[FM]

Ahonen said:

10 Pence Short said:

The current rally cars are much faster around corners than the old group B ones, as far as I'm aware.

I wathed a demonstration of the old Group B Quattro getting it's arse handed to it by a modern Focus WRC over a figure of 8 course.

I should hope so after 20 years of progress. A Group B Quattro was much closer to a Quattro road car than a WRC car is to a road car. Last year's Autosport Rally GB supplement had a Marko Martin track test of various old rally cars - and he rated the Quattro as his favourite, despite its challenging handling, because it was so utterly insane.[quote]


Still look good too....

Edited by FM on Monday 10th December 23:37

[Ahonen]

I love the oil cooler in the wing on the A1s and A2s. A guy at work keeps badgering me to get an A2 wing for mine just so I can put some coolers up there. I don't think I could afford the 4 miles of Aeroquip needed to get the oil back to the front though...

Edited by Ahonen on Monday 10th December 23:48

[MrKipling43]

stockhatcher said:

these threads always end up like this....

for me rally cars nowadays has to have the restrictors removed, and then have some junk tyres on it, that would make it much spectacular... you know safety has improved, both active ( hans, stronger cages) and passive ( better medical cover, speccies not standing on the edge of corners anymore) the IRC instead of follwing the s2000 boocks just needs to run derestricted wrc cars... job done.


oh and bring back marathon rallies... RAC '85 anyone?

I still think the biggest problem with WRC (and most 'production based' tin top series) is that the cars don't look like anything you can buy, but aren't extreme enough to be spectacular like the Group B ones. Instead they're stuck in this weird middle ground in which they don't have the 'I could buy one of those' factor that, say, Colin McRae's Impreza did (which just looked like a road-going Scoob with different wheels) or the ability to bring out the 'wow it looks like a spaceship' inner schoolboy.

And bring back marathon rallies. And night stages.

Back on topic...

I thought the S4 Estoril story was true... and yes, it would be a good one for Mythbusters.

Apparently it did accelerate just as quickly on gravel as it did on tarmac.

If you want to watch WRC cars with 600bhp - watch rallycross.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC3qM-pakW4

Brisk.

Edited by MrKipling43 on Tuesday 11th December 00:09