Mclaren admit to being at fault.
Discussion
In my opinion its all bo
ocks.
Any team would jump at the opportunity to get information from another successful team, and even without a mole information still escapes. Teams use photographers, theres pub gossip, staff are always moving between teams.
F1 teams therefore get to know what other teams are doing and are therefore bound to test what their opponents are doing.
This exchange of correspondence is just a deal between the teams to try and stuff the genie back in the bottle and get the FIA off a hook.
ocks.Any team would jump at the opportunity to get information from another successful team, and even without a mole information still escapes. Teams use photographers, theres pub gossip, staff are always moving between teams.
F1 teams therefore get to know what other teams are doing and are therefore bound to test what their opponents are doing.
This exchange of correspondence is just a deal between the teams to try and stuff the genie back in the bottle and get the FIA off a hook.
jamieboy said:
A couple of things stand out. When a Senior McLaren Engineer was questioning the accuracy of a dimension of the Ferrari car, his first instinct was to ask "did it come from photos or our mole?".
Regardless of what he was asking, the fact that he immediately wondered whether it had come from 'our mole' must surely ring an alarm bell with even McLaren's most ardent supporters.
Disappointing also that McLaren's own 'thorough investigation' showed that no info had been passed to other members of the team, when it seems that a simple trawl through an email chain proves otherwise.
That "thorough investigation" was carried out by the same third-party consultancy that subsequently analysed Renault's internal communications, which analysis was the basis of the FIA's deciding not to penalise them.Regardless of what he was asking, the fact that he immediately wondered whether it had come from 'our mole' must surely ring an alarm bell with even McLaren's most ardent supporters.
Disappointing also that McLaren's own 'thorough investigation' showed that no info had been passed to other members of the team, when it seems that a simple trawl through an email chain proves otherwise.
jamieboy said:
I'm aware that some PHers will take this post apart, misdirecting us into a forensic discussion over the precise meanings in law of words like 'see', 'know', 'use', 'information' etc., and that others will say I'm a hysterical Ferrari fanboy, and that's fair enough.
Interesting that you would say that. I cannot recall anyone on here picking apart words such as "see". At the same time, you quote the use of the word "mole" without the context, so what it should suggest even to McLaren's most ardent supporters cannot be properly judged by that alone.Anyone who is interested ought to read the FIA letter in full.
jamieboy said:
I'm happy that this seems to be an end to the whole affair, and that it looks like no additional penalties will be carried forward to the '08 season.
Indeed, we all should be happy to put this behind us.It is terribly magnanimous and sympathetic of the FIA to impose out no additional penalties, notwithstanding that the penalties which they meted out already (only to McLaren, despite Renault's and Ferrari's contemporaneous misdeeds) were in themselves ludicrously disproportionate to the alleged offence.
Also, let us not forget that, although no new penalties have been imposed, some of the extant penalties will continue to influence the competition and to damage McLaren for years to come.
The following is the process I am currently going through to understand what is going on, and some of the ideas have already been expressed by others. I'm just trying to integrate them together with my own observations.
First off, I believe that for $100M, a company's management would have to campaign for another teams info, and no such effort was evident. The way I see it, Coughlin got some info past the team's goalies, and considering the way info in F1 flies around, no one was that concerned where it came from. They weren't even concerned if info came from a 'mole.' The senior engineers seemed comfortable enough with it, so it must be a relatively common thing.
The question though is why did they say: Coughlin wasn't in a position to influence the car with his ideas, 140 engineers signed a paper saying they didn't receive or use any Ferrari info, and that Lowe would know the provenance of any idea put onto the car?
To fully understand Mclaren's behavior and their engineers' responses during the inspection, one would have to understand their perspective: they are a team who has a particularly tense relationship with the president of the governing organization, and believe they will be nailed harder than anyone else in the sport for a mistake. This attitude must permeate Mclaren's culture because it seems that the engineers put a lot of effort into only answering the precise question asked, forgetting, and not preparing alternative explanations for the things they did. Essentially, all the signs you're scared in a deposition. In this case, not scared that they did anything wrong, but scared that the FIA would cripple the team into extinction.
Prior to the most recent inspection, Mclaren's word held a lot more weight than most because of their reputation for honesty and fairness. They didn't play by all of F1's rules, only the ones they thought to be right. Their driver policy is a perfect example. Many believe what Mclaren says precisely because Mclaren said it. After reading the inspection report it seems that they presented information at the WMSC hearing with a conviction that was not warranted. From my perspective, for a team who wants holds itself to higher standards, they failed. I would say that one cannot just take their word as evidence, and now must employ some skepticism when they speak. Perhaps it is a smaller amount of skepticism than one must employ with any other team, but it is no longer zero. And now there is evidence that, in some cases, they are willing to stoop down to F1's level.
First off, I believe that for $100M, a company's management would have to campaign for another teams info, and no such effort was evident. The way I see it, Coughlin got some info past the team's goalies, and considering the way info in F1 flies around, no one was that concerned where it came from. They weren't even concerned if info came from a 'mole.' The senior engineers seemed comfortable enough with it, so it must be a relatively common thing.
The question though is why did they say: Coughlin wasn't in a position to influence the car with his ideas, 140 engineers signed a paper saying they didn't receive or use any Ferrari info, and that Lowe would know the provenance of any idea put onto the car?
To fully understand Mclaren's behavior and their engineers' responses during the inspection, one would have to understand their perspective: they are a team who has a particularly tense relationship with the president of the governing organization, and believe they will be nailed harder than anyone else in the sport for a mistake. This attitude must permeate Mclaren's culture because it seems that the engineers put a lot of effort into only answering the precise question asked, forgetting, and not preparing alternative explanations for the things they did. Essentially, all the signs you're scared in a deposition. In this case, not scared that they did anything wrong, but scared that the FIA would cripple the team into extinction.
Prior to the most recent inspection, Mclaren's word held a lot more weight than most because of their reputation for honesty and fairness. They didn't play by all of F1's rules, only the ones they thought to be right. Their driver policy is a perfect example. Many believe what Mclaren says precisely because Mclaren said it. After reading the inspection report it seems that they presented information at the WMSC hearing with a conviction that was not warranted. From my perspective, for a team who wants holds itself to higher standards, they failed. I would say that one cannot just take their word as evidence, and now must employ some skepticism when they speak. Perhaps it is a smaller amount of skepticism than one must employ with any other team, but it is no longer zero. And now there is evidence that, in some cases, they are willing to stoop down to F1's level.
The article on www.grandprix.com makes for interesting reading on this http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19932.html
Seems to be more a reflection of the situation than aything else.
Seems to be more a reflection of the situation than aything else.
flemke said:
mhedleyrob said:
If the only way McLaren could hold a candle to Ferrari was to 'use' confidential information then things do not bode well for next season.
As an F1 fan for 25+ years the last thing I want is a return to the single manufacturer romp.
But then honesty must prevail.
2008 is not likely to suffer from a lack of competition.As an F1 fan for 25+ years the last thing I want is a return to the single manufacturer romp.
But then honesty must prevail.
The single manufacturer romp of recent years was caused by the rare confluence of an unusually effective driver, a superb group of technical leaders, and a special relationship with the regulator.
The absence of two of those three factors will be sufficient to bring the romper down to earth.
Let's revisit this post in mid 2008 and see how we are getting on.
All the best, mhedleyrob.
Chrisgr31 said:
The article on www.grandprix.com makes for interesting reading on this http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19932.html
Seems to be more a reflection of the situation than aything else.
Good article. Thanks.Seems to be more a reflection of the situation than aything else.
There is often commentary in the news from psychologists, who claim that torture usually has the effect of getting the victim not to tell the truth, but simply to tell whatever he thinks is necessary to get the torturer to stop torturing him.
The McLaren "apology" feels a lot like that.
I don't know what the ins and outs are either way this is not a comfortable position for me as a fan.
I have resolutely attacked Max Mosley on this site for my perception of how McLaren has been treated only to find confusion at the end of the rainbow.
I am still not happy with Max for the reason we ended up in this whole scenario in the first place.
I am now also perturbed by McLaren.
Somewhere along the line us faithful fans have been left feeling as if we have egg on our faces and its not pleasant.
The whole F1 circus will be under intense scrutiny next year.
They have had their chance and managed to wrangle a get out of jail free card here but next year any bullshit will not be so readily accepted.
Sort it!
I have resolutely attacked Max Mosley on this site for my perception of how McLaren has been treated only to find confusion at the end of the rainbow.
I am still not happy with Max for the reason we ended up in this whole scenario in the first place.
I am now also perturbed by McLaren.
Somewhere along the line us faithful fans have been left feeling as if we have egg on our faces and its not pleasant.
The whole F1 circus will be under intense scrutiny next year.
They have had their chance and managed to wrangle a get out of jail free card here but next year any bullshit will not be so readily accepted.
Sort it!
mhedleyrob said:
Granted, but I was alluding to the Renaults (early turbo era), McLaren (late 80s), Williams (early 90s).
In those days the FIA was vastly less involved in imposing its own masterful vision on the development of technology. Then it was possible for a team to come up with a great new idea and exploit it for some time.That is, unfortunately, no longer true. This is partly because we are much farther down the learning curve than we used to be, and partly because of over-regulation.
jamieboy said:
A couple of things stand out. When a Senior McLaren Engineer was questioning the accuracy of a dimension of the Ferrari car, his first instinct was to ask "did it come from photos or our mole?".
Regardless of what he was asking, the fact that he immediately wondered whether it had come from 'our mole' must surely ring an alarm bell with even McLaren's most ardent supporters.
Disappointing also that McLaren's own 'thorough investigation' showed that no info had been passed to other members of the team, when it seems that a simple trawl through an email chain proves otherwise.
I think you're right about the 'mole' question, it's something McLaren should have picked up themselves. It doesn't mean [Senior McLaren Engineer] knew the extent of the information Coughlan apparently had though, only that there was an insider. Potentially it could refer to someone else too (eg Kimi) although that doesn't change the damage the statement makes.Regardless of what he was asking, the fact that he immediately wondered whether it had come from 'our mole' must surely ring an alarm bell with even McLaren's most ardent supporters.
Disappointing also that McLaren's own 'thorough investigation' showed that no info had been passed to other members of the team, when it seems that a simple trawl through an email chain proves otherwise.
Comparing the two spying cases it's Ron's ignorance/lying (depending on your point of view) vs Flavio's openness/brown-nosing that seems to have been the difference.
There's been a lot of comment about how Max has lost credibility, lost the plot, should retire.
Unfortunately all I can see is it's worked out exactly as planned.
He's done McLaren over.
By threatening further sanction, forced a damning confession.
And now gets to look benevolent in closing the matter.
Hey look Max was only doing what he had to - hands were tied - out of his hands - he's looking after the sport - McLaren have got off lightly.
Or, he's used a massive fine to imply a greater offence than in actuality, dragged matters on beyond their natural conclusion for his own ends, and bullied his victim until they vindicate him out of desperation.
He's played a long game but it could hardly have worked out better for him.
Desperate as I was for the discrepancy between treatment of McLaren and Renault to spell the end for Max, he's not going anywhere. I reckon the McLaren statement gives him greater credibility than he had at the start of this saga in the eyes of the marginally-interested public and the self-interested delegates of the FIA.
Unfortunately all I can see is it's worked out exactly as planned.
He's done McLaren over.
By threatening further sanction, forced a damning confession.
And now gets to look benevolent in closing the matter.
Hey look Max was only doing what he had to - hands were tied - out of his hands - he's looking after the sport - McLaren have got off lightly.
Or, he's used a massive fine to imply a greater offence than in actuality, dragged matters on beyond their natural conclusion for his own ends, and bullied his victim until they vindicate him out of desperation.
He's played a long game but it could hardly have worked out better for him.
Desperate as I was for the discrepancy between treatment of McLaren and Renault to spell the end for Max, he's not going anywhere. I reckon the McLaren statement gives him greater credibility than he had at the start of this saga in the eyes of the marginally-interested public and the self-interested delegates of the FIA.
Riverside said:
jamieboy said:
A couple of things stand out. When a Senior McLaren Engineer was questioning the accuracy of a dimension of the Ferrari car, his first instinct was to ask "did it come from photos or our mole?".
Regardless of what he was asking, the fact that he immediately wondered whether it had come from 'our mole' must surely ring an alarm bell with even McLaren's most ardent supporters.
Disappointing also that McLaren's own 'thorough investigation' showed that no info had been passed to other members of the team, when it seems that a simple trawl through an email chain proves otherwise.
I think you're right about the 'mole' question, it's something McLaren should have picked up themselves. It doesn't mean [Senior McLaren Engineer] knew the extent of the information Coughlan apparently had though, only that there was an insider. Potentially it could refer to someone else too (eg Kimi) although that doesn't change the damage the statement makes.Regardless of what he was asking, the fact that he immediately wondered whether it had come from 'our mole' must surely ring an alarm bell with even McLaren's most ardent supporters.
Disappointing also that McLaren's own 'thorough investigation' showed that no info had been passed to other members of the team, when it seems that a simple trawl through an email chain proves otherwise.
Comparing the two spying cases it's Ron's ignorance/lying (depending on your point of view) vs Flavio's openness/brown-nosing that seems to have been the difference.
FNG said:
There's been a lot of comment about how Max has lost credibility, lost the plot, should retire.
Unfortunately all I can see is it's worked out exactly as planned.
He's done McLaren over.
By threatening further sanction, forced a damning confession.
And now gets to look benevolent in closing the matter.
Hey look Max was only doing what he had to - hands were tied - out of his hands - he's looking after the sport - McLaren have got off lightly.
Or, he's used a massive fine to imply a greater offence than in actuality, dragged matters on beyond their natural conclusion for his own ends, and bullied his victim until they vindicate him out of desperation.
He's played a long game but it could hardly have worked out better for him.
Desperate as I was for the discrepancy between treatment of McLaren and Renault to spell the end for Max, he's not going anywhere. I reckon the McLaren statement gives him greater credibility than he had at the start of this saga in the eyes of the marginally-interested public and the self-interested delegates of the FIA.
I don't think it has - the Renault saga has removed any shred of credibility the FIA has as the governing body and Max is immediately seen as responsible. Further actions of threats to sue and insults to respected figures within the sport have only served to consolidate these views.Unfortunately all I can see is it's worked out exactly as planned.
He's done McLaren over.
By threatening further sanction, forced a damning confession.
And now gets to look benevolent in closing the matter.
Hey look Max was only doing what he had to - hands were tied - out of his hands - he's looking after the sport - McLaren have got off lightly.
Or, he's used a massive fine to imply a greater offence than in actuality, dragged matters on beyond their natural conclusion for his own ends, and bullied his victim until they vindicate him out of desperation.
He's played a long game but it could hardly have worked out better for him.
Desperate as I was for the discrepancy between treatment of McLaren and Renault to spell the end for Max, he's not going anywhere. I reckon the McLaren statement gives him greater credibility than he had at the start of this saga in the eyes of the marginally-interested public and the self-interested delegates of the FIA.
Max may think he's won the battle but I've a feeling he's about to lose the war.
Edited by kevin ritson on Friday 14th December 13:38
flemke said:
mhedleyrob said:
Granted, but I was alluding to the Renaults (early turbo era), McLaren (late 80s), Williams (early 90s).
In those days the FIA was vastly less involved in imposing its own masterful vision on the development of technology. Then it was possible for a team to come up with a great new idea and exploit it for some time.That is, unfortunately, no longer true. This is partly because we are much farther down the learning curve than we used to be, and partly because of over-regulation.
FNG said:
There's been a lot of comment about how Max has lost credibility, lost the plot, should retire.
Unfortunately all I can see is it's worked out exactly as planned.
He's done McLaren over.
By threatening further sanction, forced a damning confession.
And now gets to look benevolent in closing the matter.
Hey look Max was only doing what he had to - hands were tied - out of his hands - he's looking after the sport - McLaren have got off lightly.
Or, he's used a massive fine to imply a greater offence than in actuality, dragged matters on beyond their natural conclusion for his own ends, and bullied his victim until they vindicate him out of desperation.
He's played a long game but it could hardly have worked out better for him.
Desperate as I was for the discrepancy between treatment of McLaren and Renault to spell the end for Max, he's not going anywhere. I reckon the McLaren statement gives him greater credibility than he had at the start of this saga in the eyes of the marginally-interested public and the self-interested delegates of the FIA.
Sorry but I don't get your point!Unfortunately all I can see is it's worked out exactly as planned.
He's done McLaren over.
By threatening further sanction, forced a damning confession.
And now gets to look benevolent in closing the matter.
Hey look Max was only doing what he had to - hands were tied - out of his hands - he's looking after the sport - McLaren have got off lightly.
Or, he's used a massive fine to imply a greater offence than in actuality, dragged matters on beyond their natural conclusion for his own ends, and bullied his victim until they vindicate him out of desperation.
He's played a long game but it could hardly have worked out better for him.
Desperate as I was for the discrepancy between treatment of McLaren and Renault to spell the end for Max, he's not going anywhere. I reckon the McLaren statement gives him greater credibility than he had at the start of this saga in the eyes of the marginally-interested public and the self-interested delegates of the FIA.
Are you saying that because he appears to have won he's not an arsehole?
I hope you're right but in the eyes of the slightly-interested majority, you've got:
a guilty verdict from the governing body
an admission from the defendant
media using headlines "mclaren admit"
so if you're not very bothered about putting much thought into it McLaren were guilty and the FIA were right.
Then consider that the FIA dealt with Renault in the same way they initially dealt with McLaren (to the slight amazement of many at the time).
Regardless that the Renault thing won't got any further (ignoring the probability that the McLaren thing was always going to get pursued beyond reasonable credibility), the FIA to a cursory glance have been consistent and therefore, one might infer, fair.
I don't agree with that view - I do think there's a lot of people who will see it in pretty simplistic terms though.
a guilty verdict from the governing body
an admission from the defendant
media using headlines "mclaren admit"
so if you're not very bothered about putting much thought into it McLaren were guilty and the FIA were right.
Then consider that the FIA dealt with Renault in the same way they initially dealt with McLaren (to the slight amazement of many at the time).
Regardless that the Renault thing won't got any further (ignoring the probability that the McLaren thing was always going to get pursued beyond reasonable credibility), the FIA to a cursory glance have been consistent and therefore, one might infer, fair.
I don't agree with that view - I do think there's a lot of people who will see it in pretty simplistic terms though.
RobbieMeister said:
FNG said:
There's been a lot of comment about how Max has lost credibility, lost the plot, should retire.
Unfortunately all I can see is it's worked out exactly as planned.
He's done McLaren over.
By threatening further sanction, forced a damning confession.
And now gets to look benevolent in closing the matter.
Hey look Max was only doing what he had to - hands were tied - out of his hands - he's looking after the sport - McLaren have got off lightly.
Or, he's used a massive fine to imply a greater offence than in actuality, dragged matters on beyond their natural conclusion for his own ends, and bullied his victim until they vindicate him out of desperation.
He's played a long game but it could hardly have worked out better for him.
Desperate as I was for the discrepancy between treatment of McLaren and Renault to spell the end for Max, he's not going anywhere. I reckon the McLaren statement gives him greater credibility than he had at the start of this saga in the eyes of the marginally-interested public and the self-interested delegates of the FIA.
Sorry but I don't get your point!Unfortunately all I can see is it's worked out exactly as planned.
He's done McLaren over.
By threatening further sanction, forced a damning confession.
And now gets to look benevolent in closing the matter.
Hey look Max was only doing what he had to - hands were tied - out of his hands - he's looking after the sport - McLaren have got off lightly.
Or, he's used a massive fine to imply a greater offence than in actuality, dragged matters on beyond their natural conclusion for his own ends, and bullied his victim until they vindicate him out of desperation.
He's played a long game but it could hardly have worked out better for him.
Desperate as I was for the discrepancy between treatment of McLaren and Renault to spell the end for Max, he's not going anywhere. I reckon the McLaren statement gives him greater credibility than he had at the start of this saga in the eyes of the marginally-interested public and the self-interested delegates of the FIA.
Are you saying that because he appears to have won he's not an arsehole?
RobbieMeister said:
FNG said:
There's been a lot of comment about how Max has lost credibility, lost the plot, should retire.
Unfortunately all I can see is it's worked out exactly as planned.
He's done McLaren over.
By threatening further sanction, forced a damning confession.
And now gets to look benevolent in closing the matter.
Hey look Max was only doing what he had to - hands were tied - out of his hands - he's looking after the sport - McLaren have got off lightly.
Or, he's used a massive fine to imply a greater offence than in actuality, dragged matters on beyond their natural conclusion for his own ends, and bullied his victim until they vindicate him out of desperation.
He's played a long game but it could hardly have worked out better for him.
Desperate as I was for the discrepancy between treatment of McLaren and Renault to spell the end for Max, he's not going anywhere. I reckon the McLaren statement gives him greater credibility than he had at the start of this saga in the eyes of the marginally-interested public and the self-interested delegates of the FIA.
Sorry but I don't get your point!Unfortunately all I can see is it's worked out exactly as planned.
He's done McLaren over.
By threatening further sanction, forced a damning confession.
And now gets to look benevolent in closing the matter.
Hey look Max was only doing what he had to - hands were tied - out of his hands - he's looking after the sport - McLaren have got off lightly.
Or, he's used a massive fine to imply a greater offence than in actuality, dragged matters on beyond their natural conclusion for his own ends, and bullied his victim until they vindicate him out of desperation.
He's played a long game but it could hardly have worked out better for him.
Desperate as I was for the discrepancy between treatment of McLaren and Renault to spell the end for Max, he's not going anywhere. I reckon the McLaren statement gives him greater credibility than he had at the start of this saga in the eyes of the marginally-interested public and the self-interested delegates of the FIA.
Are you saying that because he appears to have won he's not an arsehole?
If, however, in the space of six months I had managed to cause the opinions that many intelligent, serious people had of me to change from wariness and doubt to active loathing and utter contempt, I'm not sure that I would think that I had won much.
FNG said:
I hope you're right but in the eyes of the slightly-interested majority, you've got:
a guilty verdict from the governing body
an admission from the defendant
media using headlines "mclaren admit"
so if you're not very bothered about putting much thought into it McLaren were guilty and the FIA were right.
Then consider that the FIA dealt with Renault in the same way they initially dealt with McLaren (to the slight amazement of many at the time).
Regardless that the Renault thing won't got any further (ignoring the probability that the McLaren thing was always going to get pursued beyond reasonable credibility), the FIA to a cursory glance have been consistent and therefore, one might infer, fair.
I don't agree with that view - I do think there's a lot of people who will see it in pretty simplistic terms though.
It is true that the media by and large have swallowed the FIA/Ferrari tale hook, line and sinker.a guilty verdict from the governing body
an admission from the defendant
media using headlines "mclaren admit"
so if you're not very bothered about putting much thought into it McLaren were guilty and the FIA were right.
Then consider that the FIA dealt with Renault in the same way they initially dealt with McLaren (to the slight amazement of many at the time).
Regardless that the Renault thing won't got any further (ignoring the probability that the McLaren thing was always going to get pursued beyond reasonable credibility), the FIA to a cursory glance have been consistent and therefore, one might infer, fair.
I don't agree with that view - I do think there's a lot of people who will see it in pretty simplistic terms though.
Perhaps unsurprising, as they comprise the generalist media, who don't know any better, and the specialist motorsport media who depend heavily on the FIA and Ferrari for information and access.
Interesting that it's now eight days since the Renault charade and we still lack the transcript that the FIA promised us. The proofreading must be more difficult that one imagined, although they managed to turn around the pair of McLaren transcripts in half the time. I don't suppose the delay relates to anyone's wanting the evidence against Renault to remain in the shadows.
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