Formula One Drivers aren't as good as....
Discussion
You develop a particular style as an F1 driver, which doesn't suit a lot of cars. Michael Schumacher admits he's not very good with touring cars, Hakkinen did alright at DTM but not as good as might have been hoped for. Even at F3 level your driving style tends mold itself to open-wheel racing cars.
Open wheel racing is all about on-limit handling, orthodox driving lines, and clean racecraft: very much by-the-book style of racing. Touring cars have a lot more play with often ambiguous limits, less need for the most efficient driving lines, and better tolerance to contact racing: great for drivers with aggressive personalities.
A classic example of specialised driving skills can be seen from Scandinavian rally drivers. While they're fantastic on the slippery stuff, there are very few who can drive fast on tarmac. That doesn't mean they're crap drivers, only just their skills are better honed for that type of driving style.
Open wheel racing is all about on-limit handling, orthodox driving lines, and clean racecraft: very much by-the-book style of racing. Touring cars have a lot more play with often ambiguous limits, less need for the most efficient driving lines, and better tolerance to contact racing: great for drivers with aggressive personalities.
A classic example of specialised driving skills can be seen from Scandinavian rally drivers. While they're fantastic on the slippery stuff, there are very few who can drive fast on tarmac. That doesn't mean they're crap drivers, only just their skills are better honed for that type of driving style.
Edited by Jungles on Saturday 22 December 01:09
Edited by Jungles on Saturday 22 December 01:11
ocks. That's like saying a plumber is better than an electrician. They both specialise at what they do, and the skills aren't really transferable, short of it being a vehicle with four wheels.Jungles said:
You develop a particular style as an F1 driver, which doesn't suit a lot of cars. Michael Schumacher admits he's not very good with touring cars, Hakkinen did alright at DTM but not as good as might have been hoped for. Even at F3 level your driving style tends mold itself to open-wheel racing cars.
Open wheel racing is all about on-limit handling, orthodox driving lines, and clean racecraft: very much by-the-book style of racing. Touring cars have a lot more play with often ambiguous limits, less need for the most efficient driving lines, and better tolerance to contact racing: great for drivers with aggressive personalities.
A classic example of specialised driving skills can be seen from Scandinavian rally drivers. While they're fantastic on the slippery stuff, there are very few who can drive fast on tarmac. That doesn't mean they're crap drivers, only just their skills are better honed for that type of driving style.
To extend, with the loose surface driving, I think they start from the premise that there is zero grip, and then control the car within a fairly wide envelope. Open wheel racing is all about on-limit handling, orthodox driving lines, and clean racecraft: very much by-the-book style of racing. Touring cars have a lot more play with often ambiguous limits, less need for the most efficient driving lines, and better tolerance to contact racing: great for drivers with aggressive personalities.
A classic example of specialised driving skills can be seen from Scandinavian rally drivers. While they're fantastic on the slippery stuff, there are very few who can drive fast on tarmac. That doesn't mean they're crap drivers, only just their skills are better honed for that type of driving style.
Edited by Jungles on Saturday 22 December 01:09
Edited by Jungles on Saturday 22 December 01:11
The envelope for "grip" in rally is only fairly wide because the overall assumption is that the centre of gravity is always fluid. It doesn't matter so much about a big input here or there, as long as you can carry and compensate for the momentum of that input over the next couple of hundred yards.
With rally, I figure that although the car is only 12 feet long the driver is occuping a section of road 200 yards long. Averaged sweeping inputs, considered pragmatically through a combination of feel (hands) to lesser extent, and sight to a greater extent.
With hard surface driving the whole premise is that there is no sliding. The drivers aim to be below or at the limit of grip in all circumstances. You just cant get away with any kind of big input because "bursting" the grip would result in a huge change of momentum, which might be difficult to control, and would certainly be slower.
The car is 12 feet long but the driver is occupying a section of road maybe just a foot long. Precise miniscule inputs considered rationally through a combination of feel (hands) to a great extent and sight to a much lesser extent.
I figure that both disciplines must make broadly equal use of the sense of inertia (ears).
Edited to add;
Thinking on I think both drivers would want to use their ears to the best possible extent, but the hard surface driver is going to find it more difficult to do this, because the G-Force is so much greater.
The senors in the cochlea <sp> are only designed for low g walking. They're very sensitive, and saturate easily. I wouldn't be surprised if this is why people move their head when they're driving. By levelling up to the force of the bend, you can feel the more minute changes "through your backside". The problem is that in F1 the forces are so great, that their heads have to be tied down, because their neck muscles are generally incapable of withstanding the weight of their heads and crash hats.
I figure that F1 is probably not as much fun as having a quick car on an open sweeping road!
Edited by dilbert on Saturday 22 December 01:59
Nickthebassist said:
....rally, touring, or GT drivers. Discuss.
The reason for this is that I personally believe F1 drivers have too many driver aids, such as launch control etc. Another thing that sparked this off was when Martin Brundle said the TVR T440R was too raw for him. Bloody woofter.
I think that ultimately the few most talented circuit drivers of each generation reach Formula One, altough there are several exceptions mainly due to budget on the way up, and these are the ones who make the best Touring and GT drivers. Rallying is a slightly different prospect, but I rate Loeb as an exceptional driver and would expect him to shine in any category.The reason for this is that I personally believe F1 drivers have too many driver aids, such as launch control etc. Another thing that sparked this off was when Martin Brundle said the TVR T440R was too raw for him. Bloody woofter.
Nickthebassist said:
....rally, touring, or GT drivers. Discuss.
The reason for this is that I personally believe F1 drivers have too many driver aids, such as launch control etc. Another thing that sparked this off was when Martin Brundle said the TVR T440R was too raw for him. Bloody woofter.
All I know is this - do a track day in something like a formula ford and see how difficult it is.The reason for this is that I personally believe F1 drivers have too many driver aids, such as launch control etc. Another thing that sparked this off was when Martin Brundle said the TVR T440R was too raw for him. Bloody woofter.
Then imagine driving on the absolute limit of adhesion around corners in your car at 100 mph, these two things will remind you of what it must be like doing the same thing at twice the speed..
phatgixer said:
Zod said:
DId you see Hammond try to drive the 2006 Renault? Yes, they really are so-o-o-o easy to drive.
I think he really is a genuine twit. That was one of the most cringe worthy things I have seen. No one can fake crapness of that magnitude.
bike humping motomonkeysi think that rally drivers have a wider skill set, that allows them to deal with all the conditions a rally can throw at them, eg tar, snow, gravel, mud as such to be quick you have to improvise more than a racing driver would. racing drivers have a relatively narrow skill set, that has to be perfected to be quick. ultimately tho , to be quick you need to have commitment , and skill to stop you from going off whatever the discipline.
Nickthebassist said:
....rally, touring, or GT drivers. Discuss.
The reason for this is that I personally believe F1 drivers have too many driver aids, such as launch control etc. Another thing that sparked this off was when Martin Brundle said the TVR T440R was too raw for him. Bloody woofter.
Top kart driversThe reason for this is that I personally believe F1 drivers have too many driver aids, such as launch control etc. Another thing that sparked this off was when Martin Brundle said the TVR T440R was too raw for him. Bloody woofter.
Nickthebassist said:
....rally, touring, or GT drivers. Discuss.
The reason for this is that I personally believe F1 drivers have too many driver aids, such as launch control etc. Another thing that sparked this off was when Martin Brundle said the TVR T440R was too raw for him. Bloody woofter.
Having driver aids doesn't make them less good than those who don't. The top flight F1 drivers are astonishingly good at what they do.The reason for this is that I personally believe F1 drivers have too many driver aids, such as launch control etc. Another thing that sparked this off was when Martin Brundle said the TVR T440R was too raw for him. Bloody woofter.
I've always been more into rallying than racing (though the current WRC is an embarrassment) and worship the skill range and bravery of the best rally drivers. But conversely watching the consistency of the best F1 drivers whilst on the absolute limit is truly amazing to watch.
The 'other' motorsport doesn't get a look in when it comes to skills appreciation. It's widely known that drag racing is easy, as all you do is drive in a straight line. I'll explain this as nobody else will, and TBH, drag racing isn't of much interest to most motorsport folks.
Ignore the fact that you have around 8000hp and will hit 330mph from a standstill, in 4.4 seconds (if you take the example of an NHRA Top Fueler). G forces for this are quite substantial, and contrary to popular belief, they don't steer in a straightline, be it off the startline, or at the top end.
A bad example of how they're anything but easy to drive, was when Tiff Needell drove a Top Fuel car back in the mid 90's. In his words "The only time I was fearful was when I was in a dragster - a 3,500 horsepower dragster! I didn't feel I had much control which way it was going... With a steering wheel and four wheels, I'm usually pretty happy!"
The datalogger showed he got off the throttle almost the moment he put his foot on it. He was later offered a drive in a Pro Modified (tube chassis'd, 4 speed transmission, left hand drive, fairly conventional) - apparently he declined, saying it looked too difficult to do in such a short space of time (4 gear sticks, to be engaged individually whilst travelling from 0-200mph+ in under 7 seconds).
The ultimate challenge within drag racing being IMO, a Nitro Funny Car.
Onboard footage here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=u7gl6vgFLwo&feature... (no sound)
When they do break traction...
Footage here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ntDMYof7BkU&feature...
In terms on mainstream motorsports, I think 2008 will finally see F1 becoming the test of driving skills, as it should be, traction control closed the field up a lot in the last few years. Without it, the smoothest drivers will come to the fore. In terms of ultimate driving skill, for me it would between the above mentioned Nitro Funnycar drivers, Moto GP riders, and non TC-assisted F1 cars
That's my 2p worth.
Ignore the fact that you have around 8000hp and will hit 330mph from a standstill, in 4.4 seconds (if you take the example of an NHRA Top Fueler). G forces for this are quite substantial, and contrary to popular belief, they don't steer in a straightline, be it off the startline, or at the top end.
A bad example of how they're anything but easy to drive, was when Tiff Needell drove a Top Fuel car back in the mid 90's. In his words "The only time I was fearful was when I was in a dragster - a 3,500 horsepower dragster! I didn't feel I had much control which way it was going... With a steering wheel and four wheels, I'm usually pretty happy!"
The datalogger showed he got off the throttle almost the moment he put his foot on it. He was later offered a drive in a Pro Modified (tube chassis'd, 4 speed transmission, left hand drive, fairly conventional) - apparently he declined, saying it looked too difficult to do in such a short space of time (4 gear sticks, to be engaged individually whilst travelling from 0-200mph+ in under 7 seconds).
The ultimate challenge within drag racing being IMO, a Nitro Funny Car.
Onboard footage here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=u7gl6vgFLwo&feature... (no sound)
When they do break traction...
Footage here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ntDMYof7BkU&feature...
In terms on mainstream motorsports, I think 2008 will finally see F1 becoming the test of driving skills, as it should be, traction control closed the field up a lot in the last few years. Without it, the smoothest drivers will come to the fore. In terms of ultimate driving skill, for me it would between the above mentioned Nitro Funnycar drivers, Moto GP riders, and non TC-assisted F1 cars
That's my 2p worth
.Well it would be terrifying for a first timer! Give him a few goes thought and I'm sure he'd get into it, in the same way put a top fuel dragster chappy in an F1 car, and cornering, braking etc, will be terrifying. Why people insist on trying to compare utterly different disciplines, I don't know.
As much as I enjoy a good top fuel race, the lack of coverage and the weather over here make it pretty hard to follow.
But you can't get any more wow factor than quoting top fuel stats,
Around fifteen thousand horse power sitting at the lights, doing this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvxinO3jjts&fea...
But you can't get any more wow factor than quoting top fuel stats,
Around fifteen thousand horse power sitting at the lights, doing this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvxinO3jjts&fea...
As evreyone has said a pointless discussion, as every driver in every category will scoff at everyone else.
But I do like this snippet when Moss and Jenkinson were practising for the 55 Mille Miglia they tried a headphone/microphone set-up, so jenks could tell NMoss what was coming up. Afterwards, Moss complained why he never said anything. It turns out that Jenks did- its just that Moss was concentrating so hard his brain switched off to non essnetial information- including someone talking. In Jenks views, this said all he needed to know about rally drivers v F1 drivers
(though, of course Moss was also a sports car driver. And a rally driver. And a....)
But I do like this snippet when Moss and Jenkinson were practising for the 55 Mille Miglia they tried a headphone/microphone set-up, so jenks could tell NMoss what was coming up. Afterwards, Moss complained why he never said anything. It turns out that Jenks did- its just that Moss was concentrating so hard his brain switched off to non essnetial information- including someone talking. In Jenks views, this said all he needed to know about rally drivers v F1 drivers
(though, of course Moss was also a sports car driver. And a rally driver. And a....)
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