Dog box - is it worth it?
Discussion
mark69sheer said:
In a race car then straight cut gears make sense in that you can easily swap ratios to match circuits.
However damage will occur to the gears dependent on driver skill.
No, you've got it mixed up again!However damage will occur to the gears dependent on driver skill.
Straight cut has nothing to do with engagement method, you can buy straight cut dog gears and straight cut syncro gears.
As to swapping gear ratios, again thats independant of both straight/helical or dog/syncro, what gears you can use is only limited to what ratios someone will make for you in whatever style required.
the hillclimb mini i spanner on had a dog box fitted last year and that gained instantly a couple of tenths.... not a lot you say, but thats quite a lot in hillclimbing!
it previously had a strait cut box with synchros, and the dog box beat it hands down on the speed of the gearchange. also the dog box is a lot stronger and won't need rebuilding every other season.
it previously had a strait cut box with synchros, and the dog box beat it hands down on the speed of the gearchange. also the dog box is a lot stronger and won't need rebuilding every other season.
dylanp said:
Hehe.. nice clip..
Not me though - I think that was Joe in his Marlin..
In his defence the car was only good for about 140bhp then and I think that was his first race as well...
Today's Marlin 5Exi is a totally different beast - nothing like the car that raced in the 750 kits..
More than capable of keeping up with a Ferrari 360 Challenge stradale for example..
That's the great thing about being able to edit clips, only show the good bits Not me though - I think that was Joe in his Marlin..
In his defence the car was only good for about 140bhp then and I think that was his first race as well...
Today's Marlin 5Exi is a totally different beast - nothing like the car that raced in the 750 kits..
More than capable of keeping up with a Ferrari 360 Challenge stradale for example..
I remember in my first race being 11 secs of pole at snetterton!
Maybe a Marlin will be racing in Kits again this year? They do look great IMO.
FYI I'm running a straight cut non dog type 9 5spd built by phil jones, the only noticeable difference over a standard type 9 is the better ratios, more precise action and noise
. Having said that, i'm going to a quaife 4spd straight cut next year as the 5th gear never gets used (other than at Snet)and the 4spd is 13kg lighter.
custardtart said:
dylanp said:
Hehe.. nice clip..
Not me though - I think that was Joe in his Marlin..
In his defence the car was only good for about 140bhp then and I think that was his first race as well...
Today's Marlin 5Exi is a totally different beast - nothing like the car that raced in the 750 kits..
More than capable of keeping up with a Ferrari 360 Challenge stradale for example..
That's the great thing about being able to edit clips, only show the good bits Not me though - I think that was Joe in his Marlin..
In his defence the car was only good for about 140bhp then and I think that was his first race as well...
Today's Marlin 5Exi is a totally different beast - nothing like the car that raced in the 750 kits..
More than capable of keeping up with a Ferrari 360 Challenge stradale for example..
I remember in my first race being 11 secs of pole at snetterton!
Maybe a Marlin will be racing in Kits again this year? They do look great IMO.
FYI I'm running a straight cut non dog type 9 5spd built by phil jones, the only noticeable difference over a standard type 9 is the better ratios, more precise action and noise
. Having said that, i'm going to a quaife 4spd straight cut next year as the 5th gear never gets used (other than at Snet)and the 4spd is 13kg lighter.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgetW4rFDhg
I doubt there will be any Marlins racing in the 750 club again - we all got too frustrated with the 'have to run carbs' thing and 'nothing is allowed' attitude of scruttineers..
There should be 3-4 green 5exis next year in the special GTs @ Castle Combe though..
one of the thinks I would comment on here is that people are comparing bad synco boxes with dog boxes...
a decent synco box is not that much of a handicap, and there are some truly shite dog boxes... (read most of the 'kits' for OEM boxes).
worth remebering cars like the 962, a multiple le-mans winning car, ran synco boxes.
that's not to say suff like Hewlands FTR's/NLT's and the like are not top draw boxes, but consider they were designed ground up to be what they are, not some OEM box re-worked (and look how much a decent one costs).
a decent synco box is not that much of a handicap, and there are some truly shite dog boxes... (read most of the 'kits' for OEM boxes).
worth remebering cars like the 962, a multiple le-mans winning car, ran synco boxes.
that's not to say suff like Hewlands FTR's/NLT's and the like are not top draw boxes, but consider they were designed ground up to be what they are, not some OEM box re-worked (and look how much a decent one costs).
dylanp said:
custardtart said:
dylanp said:
Hehe.. nice clip..
Not me though - I think that was Joe in his Marlin..
In his defence the car was only good for about 140bhp then and I think that was his first race as well...
Today's Marlin 5Exi is a totally different beast - nothing like the car that raced in the 750 kits..
More than capable of keeping up with a Ferrari 360 Challenge stradale for example..
That's the great thing about being able to edit clips, only show the good bits Not me though - I think that was Joe in his Marlin..
In his defence the car was only good for about 140bhp then and I think that was his first race as well...
Today's Marlin 5Exi is a totally different beast - nothing like the car that raced in the 750 kits..
More than capable of keeping up with a Ferrari 360 Challenge stradale for example..
I remember in my first race being 11 secs of pole at snetterton!
Maybe a Marlin will be racing in Kits again this year? They do look great IMO.
FYI I'm running a straight cut non dog type 9 5spd built by phil jones, the only noticeable difference over a standard type 9 is the better ratios, more precise action and noise
. Having said that, i'm going to a quaife 4spd straight cut next year as the 5th gear never gets used (other than at Snet)and the 4spd is 13kg lighter.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgetW4rFDhg
I doubt there will be any Marlins racing in the 750 club again - we all got too frustrated with the 'have to run carbs' thing and 'nothing is allowed' attitude of scruttineers..
There should be 3-4 green 5exis next year in the special GTs @ Castle Combe though..
What engine are you running and do you have a copy of the regs for the special GT's at Coombe, it looks great fun with all those expensive ferraris et al?
custardtart said:
dylanp said:
custardtart said:
dylanp said:
Hehe.. nice clip..
Not me though - I think that was Joe in his Marlin..
In his defence the car was only good for about 140bhp then and I think that was his first race as well...
Today's Marlin 5Exi is a totally different beast - nothing like the car that raced in the 750 kits..
More than capable of keeping up with a Ferrari 360 Challenge stradale for example..
That's the great thing about being able to edit clips, only show the good bits Not me though - I think that was Joe in his Marlin..
In his defence the car was only good for about 140bhp then and I think that was his first race as well...
Today's Marlin 5Exi is a totally different beast - nothing like the car that raced in the 750 kits..
More than capable of keeping up with a Ferrari 360 Challenge stradale for example..
I remember in my first race being 11 secs of pole at snetterton!
Maybe a Marlin will be racing in Kits again this year? They do look great IMO.
FYI I'm running a straight cut non dog type 9 5spd built by phil jones, the only noticeable difference over a standard type 9 is the better ratios, more precise action and noise
. Having said that, i'm going to a quaife 4spd straight cut next year as the 5th gear never gets used (other than at Snet)and the 4spd is 13kg lighter.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgetW4rFDhg
I doubt there will be any Marlins racing in the 750 club again - we all got too frustrated with the 'have to run carbs' thing and 'nothing is allowed' attitude of scruttineers..
There should be 3-4 green 5exis next year in the special GTs @ Castle Combe though..
What engine are you running and do you have a copy of the regs for the special GT's at Coombe, it looks great fun with all those expensive ferraris et al?
http://www.castlecombecircuit.co.uk/circuitchamps....
Good thing about special GT championship is that you can work on your engine/aero/etc - as long as you keep the car within manufacturer's model lineup..
We are currently running Honda B16 1.6Vtec turbo - giving out about 220BHP..
Did I mention that slick tyres are the norm - unlike 750 kits? ;-)
Scuffers said:
one of the thinks I would comment on here is that people are comparing bad synco boxes with dog boxes...
a decent synco box is not that much of a handicap, and there are some truly shite dog boxes... (read most of the 'kits' for OEM boxes).
worth remebering cars like the 962, a multiple le-mans winning car, ran synco boxes.
that's not to say suff like Hewlands FTR's/NLT's and the like are not top draw boxes, but consider they were designed ground up to be what they are, not some OEM box re-worked (and look how much a decent one costs).
Couldn't agree more! a decent synco box is not that much of a handicap, and there are some truly shite dog boxes... (read most of the 'kits' for OEM boxes).
worth remebering cars like the 962, a multiple le-mans winning car, ran synco boxes.
that's not to say suff like Hewlands FTR's/NLT's and the like are not top draw boxes, but consider they were designed ground up to be what they are, not some OEM box re-worked (and look how much a decent one costs).
dylanp said:
custardtart said:
dylanp said:
custardtart said:
dylanp said:
Hehe.. nice clip..
Not me though - I think that was Joe in his Marlin..
In his defence the car was only good for about 140bhp then and I think that was his first race as well...
Today's Marlin 5Exi is a totally different beast - nothing like the car that raced in the 750 kits..
More than capable of keeping up with a Ferrari 360 Challenge stradale for example..
That's the great thing about being able to edit clips, only show the good bits Not me though - I think that was Joe in his Marlin..
In his defence the car was only good for about 140bhp then and I think that was his first race as well...
Today's Marlin 5Exi is a totally different beast - nothing like the car that raced in the 750 kits..
More than capable of keeping up with a Ferrari 360 Challenge stradale for example..
I remember in my first race being 11 secs of pole at snetterton!
Maybe a Marlin will be racing in Kits again this year? They do look great IMO.
FYI I'm running a straight cut non dog type 9 5spd built by phil jones, the only noticeable difference over a standard type 9 is the better ratios, more precise action and noise
. Having said that, i'm going to a quaife 4spd straight cut next year as the 5th gear never gets used (other than at Snet)and the 4spd is 13kg lighter.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgetW4rFDhg
I doubt there will be any Marlins racing in the 750 club again - we all got too frustrated with the 'have to run carbs' thing and 'nothing is allowed' attitude of scruttineers..
There should be 3-4 green 5exis next year in the special GTs @ Castle Combe though..
What engine are you running and do you have a copy of the regs for the special GT's at Coombe, it looks great fun with all those expensive ferraris et al?
http://www.castlecombecircuit.co.uk/circuitchamps....
Good thing about special GT championship is that you can work on your engine/aero/etc - as long as you keep the car within manufacturer's model lineup..
We are currently running Honda B16 1.6Vtec turbo - giving out about 220BHP..
Did I mention that slick tyres are the norm - unlike 750 kits? ;-)
Also, without giving away too many secrets, what size wheels and type of slicks do you use?
custardtart said:
Ooh that looks good, which class do you run and is your type of car competetive with that power?
Also, without giving away too many secrets, what size wheels and type of slicks do you use?
The car is good for top half finishes.. with a little more HP who knows.. Sent you an email..Also, without giving away too many secrets, what size wheels and type of slicks do you use?
teamHOLDENracing said:
Yes - the dog box was the only close ratio box available to us at the time IIRC
DING!so being objective, how much was that difference down to the ratio's do you think?
RE; CC GT's - mate run's an Exige in that (Mark Funnel), does OK for a road car... (it's the yellow one you just get to see at the start of that clip on the right).
In my opinion, and I'm rallying and not circuit racing, it's more important to have the right gears than it is to have more power. OK, I'm not on 100% throttle all the time but when I am on the throttle, I need to have the power there. I broke the gearbox on the last rally and the spare is a bog standard helical cut syncro with road ratios and to be quite honest, it was a liability. I'll be seeing Mr TranX at the Pistonheads show.
Watching the video above, the driver with the in-car seemed to be taking some very interesting racing lines??? I assume defending position from a beying pack behind which we can't see. And the car never really seems to be struggling with lack of power due to long ratio changes.
If your car is turboed, the last thing you want is to keep lifting as you change gear then having to wait for the lag to go away so you would benefit from either long gears or a dog engagement box.
Watching the video above, the driver with the in-car seemed to be taking some very interesting racing lines??? I assume defending position from a beying pack behind which we can't see. And the car never really seems to be struggling with lack of power due to long ratio changes.
If your car is turboed, the last thing you want is to keep lifting as you change gear then having to wait for the lag to go away so you would benefit from either long gears or a dog engagement box.
Greensleeves said:
In my opinion, and I'm rallying and not circuit racing, it's more important to have the right gears than it is to have more power. OK, I'm not on 100% throttle all the time but when I am on the throttle, I need to have the power there. I broke the gearbox on the last rally and the spare is a bog standard helical cut syncro with road ratios and to be quite honest, it was a liability. I'll be seeing Mr TranX at the Pistonheads show.
Watching the video above, the driver with the in-car seemed to be taking some very interesting racing lines??? I assume defending position from a beying pack behind which we can't see. And the car never really seems to be struggling with lack of power due to long ratio changes.
If your car is turboed, the last thing you want is to keep lifting as you change gear then having to wait for the lag to go away so you would benefit from either long gears or a dog engagement box.
The 'interesting lines' are mostly a result of badly setup aero (going over avon rise was very scary - was not possible to take the 'correct' line as the car would simply slide off at 120mph! The rest was indeed defending ;-) However, the biggest reason is that I'm a beginner - although I'm a lot better now - still a lot to learn!)Watching the video above, the driver with the in-car seemed to be taking some very interesting racing lines??? I assume defending position from a beying pack behind which we can't see. And the car never really seems to be struggling with lack of power due to long ratio changes.
If your car is turboed, the last thing you want is to keep lifting as you change gear then having to wait for the lag to go away so you would benefit from either long gears or a dog engagement box.
Greensleeves said:
If your car is turboed, the last thing you want is to keep lifting as you change gear then having to wait for the lag to go away so you would benefit from either long gears or a dog engagement box.
I can see where your comming from, that said, I would spend some time working on reducing the lag rather than trying to mittigate it with other stuff...flemke said:
Unlike some others on this forum, I'm certainly no technician. However, I can tell you that straight cut gears do not a dog box make.
You can have straight cut gears with or without synchros, the latter being a "dog" box.
This is partially correctYou can have straight cut gears with or without synchros, the latter being a "dog" box.
a dog box gets its name from the dog drives on the front of the gear in place of syncro rings. these are an immensly strong method of transmitting drive from cog to cog but are very harsh and very noisy.
at the end of the day to improve lap times you will find a sequential box faster.
The change from syncro to straight cut to dog do not alter change speeds, merely the strength of the driveline for increased power. Your power levels really don't begin to stress the driveline and you would be best spending your money elsewhere.
(edited to say, after reading the rest of the posts, a dog box may be slightly quicker by the virtue of not having to lift and being able to make clutchless changes, with your set up though you will invariably find that this extra violence will damage something else, somewhere else in the driveline.)
Edited by heightswitch on Monday 31st December 15:48
heightswitch said:
flemke said:
Unlike some others on this forum, I'm certainly no technician. However, I can tell you that straight cut gears do not a dog box make.
You can have straight cut gears with or without synchros, the latter being a "dog" box.
This is partially correctYou can have straight cut gears with or without synchros, the latter being a "dog" box.
a dog box gets its name from the dog drives on the front of the gear in place of syncro rings. these are an immensly strong method of transmitting drive from cog to cog but are very harsh and very noisy.
at the end of the day to improve lap times you will find a sequential box faster.
The change from syncro to straight cut to dog do not alter change speeds, merely the strength of the driveline for increased power. Your power levels really don't begin to stress the driveline and you would be best spending your money elsewhere.
(edited to say, after reading the rest of the posts, a dog box may be slightly quicker by the virtue of not having to lift and being able to make clutchless changes, with your set up though you will invariably find that this extra violence will damage something else, somewhere else in the driveline.)
Edited by heightswitch on Monday 31st December 15:48
Reliability was never really an issue - probably because the power and torque of my engine is not high enough to really do any damage..
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