Track Simulators
Discussion
Marc W said:
He did say he wanted a simulator though and for all the hype, I've not found GT4 to be very realistic. Granted rfactor isn't perfect either but it feels a lot more like reality than GT4!
Agreed. If someone wants to use a simulator to help thier driving in any way, thier better of with something half way realistic or its simply just a game and of zero relevance/help to the real world. After all you can learn a track like the ring by watching Youtube, thats how I got a feel for the place.What games like rFactor with a wheel do that playstation or similar doesnt is help your focus and real world co-ordination. Granted they all have thier flaws and take some getting used to but then so does being decent behind the wheel of a real car.
cars do not handle in real life like they do in GT4 or any Playstation game I've tried 
. There's a number of just plain odd things that they do. If you're using a wheel and pedals for maximum realism it's a good idea to be careful as well... The odd tiny holes in the physics model in RFactor/GPL/GTR2/GPL etc have actually started creeping into my real life driving (I can elaborate if you like). On the whole I've benefited though as sims taught me to drive fast on tracks in the first place and they still improve my driving, but I'm very glad I don't do much GT4, Forza etc!!!RobM77 said:
On the whole I've benefited though as sims taught me to drive fast on tracks in the first place and they still improve my driving, but I'm very glad I don't do much GT4, Forza etc!!!
OOooooo Rob I'm not sure how you can equate Sims to actualy helping make someone fast on track, I can't see or think of any example where that has been the case and I must have encountered more examples of background experience and effect than anyone in my line of work.What rFactor and GTR do without question is sharpen the mind in regard to competition, increase the ability to focus, to concentrate, to adjust and stay sharp for longer, key features of being competitive not just fast IF...IF one is setting targets to lap consistently and fast and comparing oneself to other competitive people of course. Otherwise its just a game with limited real world value.
Real world racing speed comes from a different type of confidence or understanding IMO.
Edited by Simon Mason on Sunday 4th January 22:46
Edited because I missed some words out!!! sorry
Edited by Simon Mason on Sunday 4th January 22:47
Simon Mason said:
OOooooo Rob I'm not sure how you can equate Sims to actualy helping make someone fast on track, I can't see or think of any example where that has been the case and I must have encountered more examples of background experience and effect than anyone in my line of work.
I've had the opposite happen! I.e I've had on track instruction in real life and when I've raced on the same track in Rfactor I've then been considerably faster!Edited by Marc W on Sunday 4th January 23:17
Simon Mason said:
RobM77 said:
On the whole I've benefited though as sims taught me to drive fast on tracks in the first place and they still improve my driving, but I'm very glad I don't do much GT4, Forza etc!!!
OOooooo Rob I'm not sure how you can equate Sims to actualy helping make someone fast on track, I can't see or think of any example where that has been the case and I must have encountered more examples of background experience and effect than anyone in my line of work.What rFactor and GTR do without question is sharpen the mind in regard to competition, increase the ability to focus, to concentrate, to adjust and stay sharp for longer, key features of being competitive not just fast IF...IF one is setting targets to lap consistently and fast and comparing oneself to other competitive people of course. Otherwise its just a game with limited real world value.
Real world racing speed comes from a different type of confidence or understanding IMO.
Edited by Simon Mason on Sunday 4th January 22:46
Edited because I missed some words out!!! sorry
Edited by Simon Mason on Sunday 4th January 22:47
The big difference between sims and reality as far as I see it is that in reality you drive/fly using the balance you sense and obviously the feeling of the car/plane, whereas on a sim you drive/fly from visual inputs, which is obviously totally different. However, the basics of the differing lines and braking/acceleration techniques and how they affect lap times are the same, because the number crunching going on by a modern sim is a pretty good model of real life. Car control basics are also the same as are all the other aspects.
Moving away from personal experience, two of my close friends are heavily into sims. One's been karting with me a few times years ago, and the other did initially but then moved on to compete in karting championships. Both were immediately fast in a kart and had a pre-programmed understanding of how karts/cars handled, and stood out immediately from other beginners at the time. That had to have been the experience gained in sims surely?
I'll admit though, the balance you detect in your inner ear when driving a real car is the primary sense in motor racing (plus feel of the road, etc), and that can't come from a sim. However, as with learning anything from a musical instrument to a technique based sport such as swimming or skiing, going over the basics constantly can only help.
An interesting story is that I was once "hot lapping" with a friend on GPL and it was getting quite intense, with us going for quicker and quicker times every night (yeah, I'm a geek!!). I then took a break and went away for a race weekend involving testing and racing. Not only did I do quite well (class pole, fastest lap, win and a new lap record), but I came back on the Sunday night and went immediately faster on GPL on my third or fourth lap. We do enough hot lapping and taking breaks etc to realise that this wasn't a coincidence
It all felt a bit more focused when switching between the two, like that feeling you get if you've been on a driving range all day and then you go straight into a round of golf.Marc W said:
Simon Mason said:
OOooooo Rob I'm not sure how you can equate Sims to actualy helping make someone fast on track, I can't see or think of any example where that has been the case and I must have encountered more examples of background experience and effect than anyone in my line of work.
I've had the opposite happen! I.e I've had on track instruction in real life and when I've raced on the same track in Rfacotr I've then been considerably faster!Something else that I forgot to mention is this place: http://www.driverschallenge.co.uk/ They frequently have very well known pro drivers down there, and even with no sim experience they're immediately quick. That's not something you'd expect from someone who isn't used to computer games (witness me trying to play on a Wii or a Nintendo to see my point!!). Obviously the skill set is slightly different, as the regulars down there do go faster than pro drivers from "real life". However, the times set by people like Tiff Needell (who I've traded times with) are quite respectable!! One thing I'd like to do is do things the other way round, and take someone from this place who's never driven on a track before and get them in a real car to see how they do. There's one guy in particular who I'm fairly convinced would be immediately quick 
It'd make a great magazine article.
It'd make a great magazine article.Rather than waste a load of time on misinterpretation and misunderstanding (and bad spelling) I'll leave you to it Rob.
I have finaly bitten the bullet and ordered a G25 wheel so finaly will be able to race online with same kit as everyone else. See you on TYKA in the Porsche Supercup soon I hope?
I have finaly bitten the bullet and ordered a G25 wheel so finaly will be able to race online with same kit as everyone else. See you on TYKA in the Porsche Supercup soon I hope?
RobM77 said:
Something else that I forgot to mention is this place: http://www.driverschallenge.co.uk/ They frequently have very well known pro drivers down there, and even with no sim experience they're immediately quick. That's not something you'd expect from someone who isn't used to computer games (witness me trying to play on a Wii or a Nintendo to see my point!!). Obviously the skill set is slightly different, as the regulars down there do go faster than pro drivers from "real life". However, the times set by people like Tiff Needell (who I've traded times with) are quite respectable!! One thing I'd like to do is do things the other way round, and take someone from this place who's never driven on a track before and get them in a real car to see how they do. There's one guy in particular who I'm fairly convinced would be immediately quick It'd make a great magazine article.
LOL you've just reminded me of that idiot on Faking it a few yeras back. You know the Computer games tester... he was diabolical. It'd make a great magazine article.Simon Mason said:
RobM77 said:
On the whole I've benefited though as sims taught me to drive fast on tracks in the first place and they still improve my driving, but I'm very glad I don't do much GT4, Forza etc!!!
OOooooo Rob I'm not sure how you can equate Sims to actualy helping make someone fast on track, I can't see or think of any example where that has been the case and I must have encountered more examples of background experience and effect than anyone in my line of work.What rFactor and GTR do without question is sharpen the mind in regard to competition, increase the ability to focus, to concentrate, to adjust and stay sharp for longer, key features of being competitive not just fast IF...IF one is setting targets to lap consistently and fast and comparing oneself to other competitive people of course. Otherwise its just a game with limited real world value.
Real world racing speed comes from a different type of confidence or understanding IMO.
Edited by Simon Mason on Sunday 4th January 22:46
Edited because I missed some words out!!! sorry
Edited by Simon Mason on Sunday 4th January 22:47
Sims have been used for years to train military and civilian pilots, granted they are usually custom built and cost millions of pounds, but they are used to learn and hone skills.
I'm guessing that fighter pilots will be subjected to a vast array of different encounters that cannot be replicated for real due to cost and safety reasons, yet they are prepared for them if they actually occur. Civilian pilots practise emergency drills for similar reasons. Both of these examples show how sims are of use in the real world beyond simply learning procedures and learning to focus. Essentially, they are learning and practising a skillset. The more accurate the sim, the more applicable the skillset will be in the real world.
I think all current F1 teams also now have dedicated simulators, I expect these are mainly to acclimatise drivers to the track layout, but I suspect the drivers also will be trying differing setups and experimenting with driving lines and braking points to improve their laptimes. They are learning and practising their skillset.
Obviously, no sim can be absolutely accurate, vehicle dynamics are notoriously complex and modelling tyres alone is a huge subject. RFactor IMO is one of the best sims available to the general public, and provided the mod and track have been created using the correct data, a reasonable facsimile of driving is created.
It goes without saying that given a driving sim that is as accurate as possible and two drivers of equal skill, with equal experience in a car X on track Y, the driver that supplements their real world driving with sim driving will be faster.
The reason is that they have more time to experiment to improve laptimes. The more time that is spent using an accurate sim, the more the driver will learn about the car's dynamics, what is fast, what it will tolerate and what should be avoided as well as tuning racing lines, braking points etc. Essentially the same things a driver will learn in the real car whilst practising.
Provided the sim is accurate, the skillset should be mostly applicable in real life.
Having said this, I would never reccommend anyone simply practises with sims and then immediately attempts to drive at the same speed for real, this would be reckless. For a variety of reasons, it is always necessary to gradually work up to speed and if possible get professional tuition.
IMO
Simon Mason said:
Slipstream you too have misinterpreted/misunderstood my post but I will add that these sims are not quite military/aviation spec now are they ;-)
I am big endorser of rFactor and GTR for real racing driver training and I guess you could argue it makes people faster in real racing if they wearnt that switched on to driving race pace fast in the first place. After all, the final bit speed in any driver is in their feel and that comes from the head above anything else... which I guess in yours and Robs terms could be understood as focus and concentration in my terms.
I'll leave it at that.
I am big endorser of rFactor and GTR for real racing driver training and I guess you could argue it makes people faster in real racing if they wearnt that switched on to driving race pace fast in the first place. After all, the final bit speed in any driver is in their feel and that comes from the head above anything else... which I guess in yours and Robs terms could be understood as focus and concentration in my terms.
I'll leave it at that.
Edited by Simon Mason on Monday 5th January 00:15
I think we're broadly in agreement there to be honest. There are of course many facets to becoming a fast driver - theory and feel being the main ones. Sims can't train the feel, but they can train (or I should say "offer practise in") the theory.As a Physics graduate I used to work on military simulations, and based on what we used to do and what I've read in books such as "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics", I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to model the physics of a racing car in a pretty realistic way on a home PC; I've even toyed with various ideas using the simulation software that we ran. As SS77 says, almost all F1 teams uses sims, as do the RAF and flight training schools etc, so I don't see why a good PC sim should be much different to that. Much of the money in a flight training schools flight sim comes from the incredibly complicated hardware; it wouldn't surprise me if the basic set of algorithms in the software weren't exactly the same as Microsoft Flight Sim. We certainly used a standard set of algorithms for the aircraft that we modelled.
Of course, as SS7 says, it's important to work up to pace in real life - that feel must be learnt and mistakes are expensive and potentially dangerous!
Oh, and the Porsche racing sounds fantastic Simon
They're probably my favourite cars to drive in RFactor so I'll be there soon. I had a brief look at the site and it was all 2008 stuff, but I'll keep an eye on it for the next race.Simon Mason said:
RobM77 said:
Something else that I forgot to mention is this place: http://www.driverschallenge.co.uk/ They frequently have very well known pro drivers down there, and even with no sim experience they're immediately quick. That's not something you'd expect from someone who isn't used to computer games (witness me trying to play on a Wii or a Nintendo to see my point!!). Obviously the skill set is slightly different, as the regulars down there do go faster than pro drivers from "real life". However, the times set by people like Tiff Needell (who I've traded times with) are quite respectable!! One thing I'd like to do is do things the other way round, and take someone from this place who's never driven on a track before and get them in a real car to see how they do. There's one guy in particular who I'm fairly convinced would be immediately quick It'd make a great magazine article.
LOL you've just reminded me of that idiot on Faking it a few yeras back. You know the Computer games tester... he was diabolical. It'd make a great magazine article.There are a couple of F1 teams that use simulators with virtually identical system architecture to high-end military and commercial Full Flight Simulators. I know because I delivered an important piece of the simulators: the motion system and motion control software, to translate and generate the actual car dynamics, and to provide high-fidelity motion cues.
These simulators are used for track familiarization and aerodynamics/ suspension testing to optimize the car dynamics prior to going to the race weekend. If F1 decide it is worthwhile to spend the time and the money, why would we, earthlings, doubt?
I must admit that the use of MS and a simple steering wheel/ controls is less effective, but then again, the difference in investments is huge too.
These simulators are used for track familiarization and aerodynamics/ suspension testing to optimize the car dynamics prior to going to the race weekend. If F1 decide it is worthwhile to spend the time and the money, why would we, earthlings, doubt?
I must admit that the use of MS and a simple steering wheel/ controls is less effective, but then again, the difference in investments is huge too.
Simon Mason said:
RobM77 said:
Something else that I forgot to mention is this place: http://www.driverschallenge.co.uk/ They frequently have very well known pro drivers down there, and even with no sim experience they're immediately quick. That's not something you'd expect from someone who isn't used to computer games (witness me trying to play on a Wii or a Nintendo to see my point!!). Obviously the skill set is slightly different, as the regulars down there do go faster than pro drivers from "real life". However, the times set by people like Tiff Needell (who I've traded times with) are quite respectable!! One thing I'd like to do is do things the other way round, and take someone from this place who's never driven on a track before and get them in a real car to see how they do. There's one guy in particular who I'm fairly convinced would be immediately quick It'd make a great magazine article.
LOL you've just reminded me of that idiot on Faking it a few yeras back. You know the Computer games tester... he was diabolical. It'd make a great magazine article.Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff