Suspension Design

[Project 644]

zac510 said:

Hell yes those hillclimbing guys are serious

I think the F3 did go through a bit of a monoshock fad for a while there but these days they seem to be swinging between 2 and 3.

Yeah that and Mygale have tried separating the dampers and the springs so you can adjust the rates independently. Mechanically better, but it adds some weight.

[nick997]

CNHSS1 said:

it is serious motorsport, hillclimbing FTW. The motorsport definition of lateral and innovative thinking

Didn't mean it to read like I didn't think hillclimbing was serious, some of the cars are totally awesome in performance and design. I meant serious in regards to steps in professional racing ladder rather than club racing like so many of us on here participate in. Not that it really matters

[andygo]

nick997 said:

CNHSS1 said:

it is serious motorsport, hillclimbing FTW. The motorsport definition of lateral and innovative thinking

Didn't mean it to read like I didn't think hillclimbing was serious, some of the cars are totally awesome in performance and design. I meant serious in regards to steps in professional racing ladder rather than club racing like so many of us on here participate in. Not that it really matters

Not sure they would all be brilliant racers, but, boy, would they be ace at a 1 lap qually run.

Jenson and Brawn - take note !!!

[intrepid44]

Well after reading a bit more about monoshock design, they seem to provide little mechanical grip, and are good for use in aero cars (Dallara tested them on their Indy car). Seeing as though it is going to be used for Autocross, I think we will use a more conventional design.

[Asterix]

That's similar to the 2CV suspension IIRC except it works from front hub to rear hub.

[CNHSS1]

andygo said:

nick997 said:

CNHSS1 said:

it is serious motorsport, hillclimbing FTW. The motorsport definition of lateral and innovative thinking

Didn't mean it to read like I didn't think hillclimbing was serious, some of the cars are totally awesome in performance and design. I meant serious in regards to steps in professional racing ladder rather than club racing like so many of us on here participate in. Not that it really matters

Not sure they would all be brilliant racers, but, boy, would they be ace at a 1 lap qually run.

Jenson and Brawn - take note !!!

i have mates that i hillcimb with that also circuit race (in different cars of course!) and almost all reckon its a significantly different way of driving, with different skills required. All tend to be super hot off the starts though as youd imagine. Not sure id like 30-odd other cars around me, too crowded ;-)

[Project 644]

intrepid44 said:

Well after reading a bit more about monoshock design, they seem to provide little mechanical grip, and are good for use in aero cars (Dallara tested them on their Indy car). Seeing as though it is going to be used for Autocross, I think we will use a more conventional design.

You are thinking of suspension in the wrong way. Suspension does not provide grip, the tyres provide the grip. The idea of suspension is to utilise the available grip of the tyre by keeping the optimal contact patch with the ground at any time. Monoshock has been successful in non-aero applications (RF92 formula ford) but it tends to work better on smoother tracks. Also the short distance travelled by the pivot in roll tends to be difficult to control. For an Autocross application I would try and keep it as simple and as light as possible.

[Project 644]

CNHSS1 said:

andygo said:

nick997 said:

CNHSS1 said:

it is serious motorsport, hillclimbing FTW. The motorsport definition of lateral and innovative thinking

Didn't mean it to read like I didn't think hillclimbing was serious, some of the cars are totally awesome in performance and design. I meant serious in regards to steps in professional racing ladder rather than club racing like so many of us on here participate in. Not that it really matters

Not sure they would all be brilliant racers, but, boy, would they be ace at a 1 lap qually run.

Jenson and Brawn - take note !!!

i have mates that i hillcimb with that also circuit race (in different cars of course!) and almost all reckon its a significantly different way of driving, with different skills required. All tend to be super hot off the starts though as youd imagine. Not sure id like 30-odd other cars around me, too crowded ;-)

We have found that they tend to have an amazing first lap but then aren't as good for the rest of the race. This could be because of concentration, or it could be to do with the set up being better ie tyre pressures being higher for a 1 lap run, then overheating for the rest of the race.

[CNHSS1]

sames true the other way round though, the circuit boys take too long to get warmed up to be fast enough, but are blindingly fast on the M1 on the way home when the cars on the trailer, impossible to catch them then

[Project 644]

CNHSS1 said:

sames true the other way round though, the circuit boys take too long to get warmed up to be fast enough, but are blindingly fast on the M1 on the way home when the cars on the trailer, impossible to catch them then

I know what you mean. Trailer getting a speed wobble behind the F150 pickup in the fast lane at 80 plus.

[CNHSS1]

F150 makes a nice hole in the air for the trailer to sit in

[Project 644]

CNHSS1 said:

F150 makes a nice hole in the air for the trailer to sit in

Aye, 'tis a bloater.

[dsl2]

Tis a Force PC hill climb car shown in the pic for definite. Just sold my one & currently running a Radical in real racing as one of you guys put it, not finding it much of a problem to adapt to circuit racing at all. (Won 10 out of 11 events)

Edited by dsl2 on Friday 9th October 16:57

[intrepid44]

Project 644 said:

intrepid44 said:

Well after reading a bit more about monoshock design, they seem to provide little mechanical grip, and are good for use in aero cars (Dallara tested them on their Indy car). Seeing as though it is going to be used for Autocross, I think we will use a more conventional design.

You are thinking of suspension in the wrong way. Suspension does not provide grip, the tyres provide the grip. The idea of suspension is to utilise the available grip of the tyre by keeping the optimal contact patch with the ground at any time. Monoshock has been successful in non-aero applications (RF92 formula ford) but it tends to work better on smoother tracks. Also the short distance travelled by the pivot in roll tends to be difficult to control. For an Autocross application I would try and keep it as simple and as light as possible.

I know that it is the tyres that ultimately provie the grip and that the suspension is used to keep the tyre in contact with the tarmac. I worded that wrongly, I guess. Also I read that the monoshock worked well with the FF due to it having a relatively wide track. Is monoshock still used sucessfully in other none-aero applications?

And I agree it probably is best to keep it simple, and as light as posible. That's why we were thinking of a monoshock setup, but having looked into it a little further other teams that have gone the monoshock design seem to have been less than sucessful, although I guess that could be due to other reasons.

[AlexS]

CNHSS1 said:

andygo said:

nick997 said:

CNHSS1 said:

it is serious motorsport, hillclimbing FTW. The motorsport definition of lateral and innovative thinking

Didn't mean it to read like I didn't think hillclimbing was serious, some of the cars are totally awesome in performance and design. I meant serious in regards to steps in professional racing ladder rather than club racing like so many of us on here participate in. Not that it really matters

Not sure they would all be brilliant racers, but, boy, would they be ace at a 1 lap qually run.

Jenson and Brawn - take note !!!

i have mates that i hillcimb with that also circuit race (in different cars of course!) and almost all reckon its a significantly different way of driving, with different skills required. All tend to be super hot off the starts though as youd imagine. Not sure id like 30-odd other cars around me, too crowded ;-)

Andy Priaulx seemed to make the transition from hillclimbing to circuit racing pretty successfully.

[Project 644]

intrepid44 said:

Project 644 said:

intrepid44 said:

Well after reading a bit more about monoshock design, they seem to provide little mechanical grip, and are good for use in aero cars (Dallara tested them on their Indy car). Seeing as though it is going to be used for Autocross, I think we will use a more conventional design.

You are thinking of suspension in the wrong way. Suspension does not provide grip, the tyres provide the grip. The idea of suspension is to utilise the available grip of the tyre by keeping the optimal contact patch with the ground at any time. Monoshock has been successful in non-aero applications (RF92 formula ford) but it tends to work better on smoother tracks. Also the short distance travelled by the pivot in roll tends to be difficult to control. For an Autocross application I would try and keep it as simple and as light as possible.

I know that it is the tyres that ultimately provie the grip and that the suspension is used to keep the tyre in contact with the tarmac. I worded that wrongly, I guess. Also I read that the monoshock worked well with the FF due to it having a relatively wide track. Is monoshock still used sucessfully in other none-aero applications?

And I agree it probably is best to keep it simple, and as light as posible. That's why we were thinking of a monoshock setup, but having looked into it a little further other teams that have gone the monoshock design seem to have been less than sucessful, although I guess that could be due to other reasons.

I think that generally a monoshock design is limited by the amount of movement that the belleville washers or compliance springs allow. If a damper could be integrated and the leverages worked so that the movement was greater for the lateral movement it could be better controlled. That said, I have heard of teams running locked out roll bars and placing solid blocks in place of the compliance springs at really smooth circuits, Magny Cours is smooth enough for this.