So, Tomorrow's the day! (FIA World Council)
Poll: So, Tomorrow's the day! (FIA World Council)
Total Members Polled: 168
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
Further, Ferrari have already been found guilty. The WMSC's remit was to consider punishment only, not guilt. Since the Schumacher fiasco I know of not other circumstances where the leader of a race has been required to let another car through because of team orders and this is what the regulation restricts.
Mmmm. Good Point! In accepting the fine, they admitted guilt.
Eric Mc said:
As the FIA have found that Ferrari have brken no rules, are Ferrari entitled to claimm back the penalty imposed by the track stewards?
The WMSC have found that Ferrari has broken the rule and the team has accepted that they did.Otherwise, Eric, you were spot on.
(Smiley face intended but i don't know how to include one)
I can only think there are 3 things the prevented any additional punishment for Ferrari yesterday...
1) That the WMSC were not convinced any additional punishment would be upheld in Civil Court (remember, they are only just reeling from losing to Briatore)
2) The publicity of further sanctions would do more damage to the sport than that of no further sanction (be aware that F1 as a commercial entity is probably more in balance of favouring less interested, less knowledgable, emerging markets, where the Ferrari spin machine will be much more effective than in Europe)
3) Ferrari are more than capable of influencing individuals in the ample time they had in between the offence and the hearing
In my opinion the natural justice of the thing would have been to return Ferrari to the position they would have been in, were they to have not had team orders. It's more than reasonable to suggest Alonso would not have managed to pass Massa on the track, there were no remaining pit stops and neither machine appeared to suffer any tehnical problems. Therefore the fairest thing in my opinion would have been a time penalty against Alonso to put him to second with Massa first.
Whether the regulations allowed the Stewards to impose such a penalty for this offence, I don't know? If it does then I would say the initial reaction of the stewards was an overreaction and that overreaction effectively removed the chance of any effective sanction against Ferrari. Unless you believe $100,000 is any kind of effective sanction?
1) That the WMSC were not convinced any additional punishment would be upheld in Civil Court (remember, they are only just reeling from losing to Briatore)
2) The publicity of further sanctions would do more damage to the sport than that of no further sanction (be aware that F1 as a commercial entity is probably more in balance of favouring less interested, less knowledgable, emerging markets, where the Ferrari spin machine will be much more effective than in Europe)
3) Ferrari are more than capable of influencing individuals in the ample time they had in between the offence and the hearing
In my opinion the natural justice of the thing would have been to return Ferrari to the position they would have been in, were they to have not had team orders. It's more than reasonable to suggest Alonso would not have managed to pass Massa on the track, there were no remaining pit stops and neither machine appeared to suffer any tehnical problems. Therefore the fairest thing in my opinion would have been a time penalty against Alonso to put him to second with Massa first.
Whether the regulations allowed the Stewards to impose such a penalty for this offence, I don't know? If it does then I would say the initial reaction of the stewards was an overreaction and that overreaction effectively removed the chance of any effective sanction against Ferrari. Unless you believe $100,000 is any kind of effective sanction?
JR Hartley said:
Pathetic!
I really do hope Ferrari don't win anything for a long, long time now.
I hope Mclaren, Lewis and Jenson crush the cheating motherf
kers!
Nice, considered post.I really do hope Ferrari don't win anything for a long, long time now.
I hope Mclaren, Lewis and Jenson crush the cheating motherf
kers!As if Button is going to be allowed to race fairly with Hamilton during the remainder of the season.
Oh, I forgot, he has already been made to stay behind Hamilton, (team orders by any other name, anyone?), but that is conveniently ignored.
Are we still whinging?
Alonso wont win the Championship and Fez wont win the Constructors. So why the whinging?
All that has happened is that Ferrari have shot themselves in the foot with a rather large own goal. They have destroyed any team morale and harmony they had with no chance of fixing it up later in the season. They have one driver now brimming with resentment and the knowledge that his World Championship "career" with Ferrari is over, not just this season, but any further ones. Their other driver is so mentally fragile at the moment that the only way he could win a race was to have his team mate ordered to move over. Rather than bolster or return Alonso to confidence this will only erode it and eat away. Alonso motivates and prides himself on being an out in front figure, controlling and dictating and that this is the natural order. Currently it isnt and that has been impacting on his mentality, an artificially induced situation to enable that will only aggravate him further. Steffano has put himself under further pressure by now residing over a team who are perceived to cheat to a much wider audience than before, he has sullied the wider image of Ferrari in the commercial world at a time when they were already trying to tip toe their way through a problem with their latest product (and just about getting away with it) and now old Steff will be have Luca expecting a Championship payoff for all this grief and the public expecting him to win something having gone to this much trouble.
Meanwhile Christian is playing with this trainset giggling to himself that some other schoolboy is in the naughty corner instead of him for once.
And Ron is p1ssing himself laughing.
The Championship is now a 3.5 horse race. BJ must win this Monza, Seb can get away with a 2nd because if Seb is 2nd it will mean Webber is 1st and therefore Seb will have taken points back off Hamilton. Webber he still thinks he can beat on his own. If BJ is only 2nd then it means that Lewis has probably won and that will be that for BJ. So its Lewis, Webber and just about Seb with BJ on a half chance.
Alonso? In theory probably favourite to win in Monza, but I think Lewis will match him all the way and right now in a battle of wills between Lewis and Alonso Ill take Lewis everytime. Or they take each other out. Which is actually what Id be working on if I was Christian Horner. Bigging up Alonso v Lewis, hyping them, building the rivaly, the hatred, working on Alonso's mind that he *has* to beat Lewis, cant let him win at any cost. All it would do is shorten the odds of them taking each other out and his team are the big winners in that situation.
Alonso wont win the Championship and Fez wont win the Constructors. So why the whinging?
All that has happened is that Ferrari have shot themselves in the foot with a rather large own goal. They have destroyed any team morale and harmony they had with no chance of fixing it up later in the season. They have one driver now brimming with resentment and the knowledge that his World Championship "career" with Ferrari is over, not just this season, but any further ones. Their other driver is so mentally fragile at the moment that the only way he could win a race was to have his team mate ordered to move over. Rather than bolster or return Alonso to confidence this will only erode it and eat away. Alonso motivates and prides himself on being an out in front figure, controlling and dictating and that this is the natural order. Currently it isnt and that has been impacting on his mentality, an artificially induced situation to enable that will only aggravate him further. Steffano has put himself under further pressure by now residing over a team who are perceived to cheat to a much wider audience than before, he has sullied the wider image of Ferrari in the commercial world at a time when they were already trying to tip toe their way through a problem with their latest product (and just about getting away with it) and now old Steff will be have Luca expecting a Championship payoff for all this grief and the public expecting him to win something having gone to this much trouble.
Meanwhile Christian is playing with this trainset giggling to himself that some other schoolboy is in the naughty corner instead of him for once.
And Ron is p1ssing himself laughing.
The Championship is now a 3.5 horse race. BJ must win this Monza, Seb can get away with a 2nd because if Seb is 2nd it will mean Webber is 1st and therefore Seb will have taken points back off Hamilton. Webber he still thinks he can beat on his own. If BJ is only 2nd then it means that Lewis has probably won and that will be that for BJ. So its Lewis, Webber and just about Seb with BJ on a half chance.
Alonso? In theory probably favourite to win in Monza, but I think Lewis will match him all the way and right now in a battle of wills between Lewis and Alonso Ill take Lewis everytime. Or they take each other out. Which is actually what Id be working on if I was Christian Horner. Bigging up Alonso v Lewis, hyping them, building the rivaly, the hatred, working on Alonso's mind that he *has* to beat Lewis, cant let him win at any cost. All it would do is shorten the odds of them taking each other out and his team are the big winners in that situation.
10 Pence Short said:
I can only think there are 3 things the prevented any additional punishment for Ferrari yesterday...
1) That the WMSC were not convinced any additional punishment would be upheld in Civil Court (remember, they are only just reeling from losing to Briatore)
2) The publicity of further sanctions would do more damage to the sport than that of no further sanction (be aware that F1 as a commercial entity is probably more in balance of favouring less interested, less knowledgable, emerging markets, where the Ferrari spin machine will be much more effective than in Europe)
3) Ferrari are more than capable of influencing individuals in the ample time they had in between the offence and the hearing
4) That Bernie had a quiet word. He has stated that F1 is a Team sport and he feels the rule is nonsence and afterall hes the one who rules the sport whatever others may think. 1) That the WMSC were not convinced any additional punishment would be upheld in Civil Court (remember, they are only just reeling from losing to Briatore)
2) The publicity of further sanctions would do more damage to the sport than that of no further sanction (be aware that F1 as a commercial entity is probably more in balance of favouring less interested, less knowledgable, emerging markets, where the Ferrari spin machine will be much more effective than in Europe)
3) Ferrari are more than capable of influencing individuals in the ample time they had in between the offence and the hearing
DSM2 said:
JR Hartley said:
Pathetic!
I really do hope Ferrari don't win anything for a long, long time now.
I hope Mclaren, Lewis and Jenson crush the cheating motherfkers!
Nice, considered post.I really do hope Ferrari don't win anything for a long, long time now.
I hope Mclaren, Lewis and Jenson crush the cheating motherf
kers!As if Button is going to be allowed to race fairly with Hamilton during the remainder of the season.
Oh, I forgot, he has already been made to stay behind Hamilton, (team orders by any other name, anyone?), but that is conveniently ignored.
Further, Button is a big boy. He has the authority to ignore directions from the pitlane if he wishes, as indeed could Massa.
I think team orders should be permitted (as stopping them is like holding back the tide), BUT there should be a ban on any punishment for a driver refusing to obey said team orders. That should make things interesting with some of the characters out there. Webber ordered to let Vettel through - like that would be obeyed!
What would you prefer, open team orders or messages such as:
Felipe, your fuel consumption is too high, switch to mix Z.
Felipe, we are concerned about tyre wear, please pit for a precautionary tyre change.
Felipe, your engine is running a bit hot, please use less revs (12,000 rpm should do it...).
Felipe, sorry about that slow pit stop, you lost 3 seconds.
Felipe, please pit now, Fernando will pit in 5 laps time (and will be 1 second a lap faster than you on each one).
How many ways could a team manipulate a race result if they so chose.
Felipe, your fuel consumption is too high, switch to mix Z.
Felipe, we are concerned about tyre wear, please pit for a precautionary tyre change.
Felipe, your engine is running a bit hot, please use less revs (12,000 rpm should do it...).
Felipe, sorry about that slow pit stop, you lost 3 seconds.
Felipe, please pit now, Fernando will pit in 5 laps time (and will be 1 second a lap faster than you on each one).
How many ways could a team manipulate a race result if they so chose.
Adrian W said:
Maybe now is the time for Maclaren too return to court and get the 100 million back,the FIA can't have it both ways
I've wondered if that ever changed hands. Remember, post the decision and the Whitmarsh letter refuting almost all the findings of the WMSC, Mosley had to concede he was wrong and there was that lovely photograph of him shaking hands with Dennis by way of apology on the steps of McLaren HQ with Mosley on the lower step. Dennis' expression was a treat. There was one brief entry of the FIA's website about how £40,000 or so (can't be bothered to look for it at the moment but it was small change) of the fine had gone to karting and then absolutely zilch.Very odd.
There's more to this latest decision than just that the WMSC felt that the original fine was sufficient.
StevieBee said:
By way of balance……. (and I say this as one who believes they should have been disqualified from the GP)
Ferrari had made the threat that they would legally challenge any adverse ruling. Whilst this alone would not have swayed the FIA judges, they would have recognised that any decision they took would have to stand up to legal scrutiny (the FIA are not covered by any formal legal system other than that they create themselves).
In other words, the FIA had to ‘prove beyond doubt’ Ferrari imposed team orders and there’s only two things that would have enabled this:
1. A team member admits it
2. The data irrefutably shows that Massa was faster, not Alonso
There was nothing that was said by the team during or after the race that couldn’t be explained away as other meanings. It is possible that a good prosecution would argue a good case but this would of course be defended equally well.
What would have played on the mind of the FIA is that should they have thrown the book at them and Ferrari challenged it, the legal process would unlikely be resolved for some considerable time, possibly meaning that the result of the championship may not be fully confirmed until the middle of next year.
Everybody with even a passing interest in the sport knows full well what they did was team orders but proving it is a very different matter.
Surely if they cannot prove beyond doubt, then they must say Ferrari are innocent - in which case the 100k fine must be withdrawn?Ferrari had made the threat that they would legally challenge any adverse ruling. Whilst this alone would not have swayed the FIA judges, they would have recognised that any decision they took would have to stand up to legal scrutiny (the FIA are not covered by any formal legal system other than that they create themselves).
In other words, the FIA had to ‘prove beyond doubt’ Ferrari imposed team orders and there’s only two things that would have enabled this:
1. A team member admits it
2. The data irrefutably shows that Massa was faster, not Alonso
There was nothing that was said by the team during or after the race that couldn’t be explained away as other meanings. It is possible that a good prosecution would argue a good case but this would of course be defended equally well.
What would have played on the mind of the FIA is that should they have thrown the book at them and Ferrari challenged it, the legal process would unlikely be resolved for some considerable time, possibly meaning that the result of the championship may not be fully confirmed until the middle of next year.
Everybody with even a passing interest in the sport knows full well what they did was team orders but proving it is a very different matter.
Joe911 said:
Surely if they cannot prove beyond doubt, then they must say Ferrari are innocent - in which case the 100k fine must be withdrawn?
There is no 'beyond doubt' element. That's just for criminal convictions.For Civil Law you're looking at balance of probabilities- ie. it's more likely than not.
Is it more likely than not that Ferrari ordered Massa to move over? Of course it is- which is why Ferrari haven't made issue of the $100,000 fine. Would the FIA be legally entitled to up the sanction? We don't know, but they didn't seem confident in doing so, did they?
mattikake said:
So the outcome of this must mean that the WMSC have adjudged that no rules were broken? If they were, they'd have to impose a punishment, right?
I think that this is the main cause of ire and disbelief on here.Very few believe that the team orders rule is useful, sensible or workable. They do, however, expect the rules to be upheld when clearly broken and for that upholding to be done with equal leniency or penalty to all teams.
Very few of us are prepared to believe that any other team, particularly Woking's finest, would have been essentially let off. The $100,000 fine is meaningless, equivalent of a speeding fine being a tenner to normal folks.
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