RE: Rally GB: Loeb Ends WRC Era With Victory
Discussion
Knightmorph said:
As I read somewhere recently.....
NASCAR – “I like to turn left occasionally.”
F1 – “I need strong neck muscles.”
WRC – “Solo driving is for pussies.”
Rally Group B – “I kill people.”
Here is an interesting review of great Rallye cars....
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/11/10-amazingly-...
good article and a nice trip down to memory lane... NASCAR – “I like to turn left occasionally.”
F1 – “I need strong neck muscles.”
WRC – “Solo driving is for pussies.”
Rally Group B – “I kill people.”
Here is an interesting review of great Rallye cars....
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/11/10-amazingly-...
Few mistakes/omissions though:
mistake: in the subaru section it should be Richard Burns instead of Richard Reid (co-driver of Burns).
ommision: how can you forget the celica GT4?
djaychela said:
Hi All
Firstly I've signed up just to say thanks to Mark for taking such great pictures of the cars through Sweet Lamb, even my little Skoda (car 81 at the end) - made it look like we were really going quickly!
Did you also run in the 2008 Wales rally?Firstly I've signed up just to say thanks to Mark for taking such great pictures of the cars through Sweet Lamb, even my little Skoda (car 81 at the end) - made it look like we were really going quickly!
I seem to remember hearing a story over the tannoy of two chaps who bought an old scrap Felica and built it into a Rally car and they were running that year. Does that sound like you?
DAVE
I can see that in the current economical meltdown there is a need to reduce costs, but surely the costs are based on a ratio of cost/publicity generated for the said manufacturer, after all there seems to be no shortage of companies wanting to enter the far costlier F1.
I think the WRC needs a complete overhall in the way it is run to get it back to its heydays, it needs a true master of ideas/marketing such as Bernie Ecclestone in F1.
For starters they could modify the coverage, It seems the only WRC coverage you get on TV these days is in the midnight hours... why would any manufacturer pay 10's of millions for midnight advertising. I think they need to find a regular and easily accessible time frame to show this on TV so people can follow it without much effort, a suggestion might be to fill the Sat/Sunday afternoons when F1 is not on.
I really hope that WRC does modify its organisation and not just cut costs and run the sport into the ground
I think the WRC needs a complete overhall in the way it is run to get it back to its heydays, it needs a true master of ideas/marketing such as Bernie Ecclestone in F1.
For starters they could modify the coverage, It seems the only WRC coverage you get on TV these days is in the midnight hours... why would any manufacturer pay 10's of millions for midnight advertising. I think they need to find a regular and easily accessible time frame to show this on TV so people can follow it without much effort, a suggestion might be to fill the Sat/Sunday afternoons when F1 is not on.
I really hope that WRC does modify its organisation and not just cut costs and run the sport into the ground
iamrcb said:
You are the Felicia guy then...
Did a big cheer seeing you pass on the Resolven stage last weekend.
Yes, I'm the Felicia guy! It was hugely appreciated, we could hear (and see) people's reaction as we went by, a few people really went for it too! I'll never forget it, as of course there's no way I'll be able to do another WRC event (although I'm hoping to do Monte Carlo 2012, as it's IRC). By the time we got to Resolven the car was a bit done in, having broken the rear shocks on Saturday night and put standard road car ones on for a bouncy Sunday!Did a big cheer seeing you pass on the Resolven stage last weekend.
davemcc43 said:
Did you also run in the 2008 Wales rally?
I seem to remember hearing a story over the tannoy of two chaps who bought an old scrap Felica and built it into a Rally car and they were running that year. Does that sound like you?
DAVE
Hi Dave.I seem to remember hearing a story over the tannoy of two chaps who bought an old scrap Felica and built it into a Rally car and they were running that year. Does that sound like you?
DAVE
Yes, I ran in 2008 as well. Car cost me £40 originally, which is the same cost as the nut on the steering arm of a Focus WRC, according to the team manager. Owes me a bit more than that now, of course, but it's still cost less to build than a couple of Focus WRC bumpers and headlights.
dfen5 said:
Used to be a great spectator event. Chatsworth and Sutton Park in the day were brilliant. You were so close to the cars coming past, especially in the woods, that the sounds and sights were just raw somehow.
Now it feels like you're in the next postcode and struggle to read the numbers the cars are so far away. Surprised they don't have a regulation for the car to have air bags on the outside just in case and a member of the green party on every corner making sure the noise limits don't endanger someone's human rights. Or am I just getting old? H&S fecked rallying as a spectator sport.
It's not so different now you know - you need to get to an event!Now it feels like you're in the next postcode and struggle to read the numbers the cars are so far away. Surprised they don't have a regulation for the car to have air bags on the outside just in case and a member of the green party on every corner making sure the noise limits don't endanger someone's human rights. Or am I just getting old? H&S fecked rallying as a spectator sport.
I didn't feel too far away when I took this on Saturday - quite the opposite given the speed he came through
For £20 on Saturday you could watch 2 stages each run twice by the WRC and once by the nationals too - all day long entertainment all the way into the night. The top guys were unbelievably fast and comitted, and the way Mikkelson drove his S2000 Fabia gives hope for next years cars too. Bloody excellent
Just watched the coverage from Dave last night, was bloody excellent and a very fitting way to see the current WRC cars out. Loeb's driving was near flawless as usual and even when under pressure he remained super cool and pulled it together. You can see the difference between him and someone like Block. When Block starts to lose it he goes to pieces, has a bit shout an swear then slowly starts off again, when Loeb spun he didn't even flinch, just reset and moved on.
The montage at the end of the program was great too, I will miss these WRC cars, the C4 in particular, is imo the most capable rally car ever built.
The montage at the end of the program was great too, I will miss these WRC cars, the C4 in particular, is imo the most capable rally car ever built.
With regard to the video on BBC iplayer (from BBC wales), I thought it was a very good piece of work. Especially when they talked to the photographer and Phil Mills. This is something that Dave can learm from (imo).
The guy has been taking photos since 1973... mega respect to the man! But even more so when he was asked about the current era of WRC (cars and drivers) and the old skoolers (Group B). He nailed it on the head... unquestionably Loeb is the fastest and most successful driver in the history of WRC - is almost like driving in rails - but people like Ari Vatanen used to throw the MK2 at impossible angles through the rally stages, which of course was extremely eye pleasing for us spectators.
I won't advocate that technology has (completely) ruined the sport, but it definately played its part to take away some of the magic that earlier generations of WRC cars had (even the younger genereation ones: Impreza WRC, Corolla WRC, Focus WRC).
Or maybe it was the drivers too: Colin, Carlos, Tommi etc. As these guys cut their rallying teeth in RWD, which inevitably had an impact on their driving skill when they made the transition to 4WD.
That's my 5 cents.
The guy has been taking photos since 1973... mega respect to the man! But even more so when he was asked about the current era of WRC (cars and drivers) and the old skoolers (Group B). He nailed it on the head... unquestionably Loeb is the fastest and most successful driver in the history of WRC - is almost like driving in rails - but people like Ari Vatanen used to throw the MK2 at impossible angles through the rally stages, which of course was extremely eye pleasing for us spectators.
I won't advocate that technology has (completely) ruined the sport, but it definately played its part to take away some of the magic that earlier generations of WRC cars had (even the younger genereation ones: Impreza WRC, Corolla WRC, Focus WRC).
Or maybe it was the drivers too: Colin, Carlos, Tommi etc. As these guys cut their rallying teeth in RWD, which inevitably had an impact on their driving skill when they made the transition to 4WD.
That's my 5 cents.
A big Solberg fan here and did anynone notice how frustrated he sounded (about Loeb) in his interviews throughout the weekend. The guy is a privateer running on a tiny budget and a less sorted car but was always battling amongst the works drivers, a real testiment to his skill . . but I get the imperssion he wished Loed would just F off lol!
weyland yutani said:
A big Solberg fan here and did anynone notice how frustrated he sounded (about Loeb) in his interviews throughout the weekend. The guy is a privateer running on a tiny budget and a less sorted car but was always battling amongst the works drivers, a real testiment to his skill . . but I get the imperssion he wished Loed would just F off lol!
If you read Loeb's diary on his official website he mentions that he was sick of Petter constantly complaining that Seb was "putting mud on the road for him" and other such nonsense. I like Petter, his passion is inspiring and his driving is excellent, but even when Loeb isn't winning he doesn't get b
hy or childish. I think Petter could do with taking a page from the Loeb book in this instance.
i was there this weekend, also went last year, this year was imo much better than last year,
i agree with the comments on here that there needs to be more big manufactures entering wrc, and much better coverage, maybe bbc could sort something out here for us, especially as they dont really have much else good for us to watch.
my idea i think the fai should do is for the cars to be production items, with roll cages and engines that produce 350-400bhp, no restrictions just a maximum limit, different suspension to cope with the rigours of a rally, no sequential shift boxes, just rely on driver ability only, that'll get manufactures and supporters interested.
as for fans there seemed to be enough there this year (especially as it took me and my mate 2 hours to get to cardiff even though it should only have taken an hour, we wanted to watch the special stage in cardiff bay on saturday night, and even left the satge we were on after the first 10 cars had passed and the wrc still had the halfway stage to do (which gave us 1.5 hours to get to cardiff super special), so i dont think its a complete waste of time for the teams
and as for the health and safety comment, yes it probably is a bit more than say 20 years ago, but your still plenty close enough, most stages me and my mate were getting smacked in the face with mud and stones as the cars went past, and one corner we almost had a group b impreza on top of us, we were lucky the spectator area was on top of a 2 foot high rock
cant wait for next year,
i agree with the comments on here that there needs to be more big manufactures entering wrc, and much better coverage, maybe bbc could sort something out here for us, especially as they dont really have much else good for us to watch.
my idea i think the fai should do is for the cars to be production items, with roll cages and engines that produce 350-400bhp, no restrictions just a maximum limit, different suspension to cope with the rigours of a rally, no sequential shift boxes, just rely on driver ability only, that'll get manufactures and supporters interested.
as for fans there seemed to be enough there this year (especially as it took me and my mate 2 hours to get to cardiff even though it should only have taken an hour, we wanted to watch the special stage in cardiff bay on saturday night, and even left the satge we were on after the first 10 cars had passed and the wrc still had the halfway stage to do (which gave us 1.5 hours to get to cardiff super special), so i dont think its a complete waste of time for the teams
and as for the health and safety comment, yes it probably is a bit more than say 20 years ago, but your still plenty close enough, most stages me and my mate were getting smacked in the face with mud and stones as the cars went past, and one corner we almost had a group b impreza on top of us, we were lucky the spectator area was on top of a 2 foot high rock
cant wait for next year,
rallyman77 said:
With regard to the video on BBC iplayer (from BBC wales), I thought it was a very good piece of work.
I watched both the Dave coverage and the BBC Wales feature, and i agree, the BBC wales one was a LOT better, much much more info on the rally, it's drivers, the people who support it etc, and as the BBC used to do, it featured more that just the top 10 drivers, so you can see some "real" people having a go too!Jerry Can said:
Finally next year we'll know just how average Matt Wilson is. Part of me thinks it is the Stobart cars as they are genuinely second tier compared to even the junior Citroens, but there again it could be Wilson.
Matt is genuinely second-rate. On the Dave coverage of the Spanish event (broadcast the 24th of October I believe) they showed an awesome split between Loeb's cornering technique and Matt's on tarmac. Matt was losing a second per corner to Loeb and you can see how that would stretch into the minutes long gulf between him and the top 6 pack over the course of a rally. The car he drives may well be genuinely B class compared to cars that Loeb, Solberg, Ogier, Hirvonen and Latvala drive, but even putting him in a marginally better car is not going to magically correct the deficencies of his cornering technique.Mastodon2 said:
Jerry Can said:
Finally next year we'll know just how average Matt Wilson is. Part of me thinks it is the Stobart cars as they are genuinely second tier compared to even the junior Citroens, but there again it could be Wilson.
Matt is genuinely second-rate. On the Dave coverage of the Spanish event (broadcast the 24th of October I believe) they showed an awesome split between Loeb's cornering technique and Matt's on tarmac. Matt was losing a second per corner to Loeb and you can see how that would stretch into the minutes long gulf between him and the top 6 pack over the course of a rally. The car he drives may well be genuinely B class compared to cars that Loeb, Solberg, Ogier, Hirvonen and Latvala drive, but even putting him in a marginally better car is not going to magically correct the deficencies of his cornering technique.What it showed was that on one particular corner, Matt braked earlier, and took a less agressive line through the corner, and hence was slower. BUT, he almost certainly did that on purpose!
I think that it's extremely likely that Matt's less confident and aggressive style is entirely comenserate with being in a less "secure" position than Loeb with regard to his position in the team. Now Loeb is undoubtly a true master on all surfaces (esp tarmac) but he does have a significant luxury in not having to worry that he might loose his seat if he bins it. Not something that Matt Wilson has! Considering Matts junior status, his "get to the end" style of consistent finishing seems like a pretty good one! (he finished the 2010 drivers championship in 7th place, compared to say Ken Block (with his gung ho style lol) in 23rd !!
(so, no, he's not as "good" a wrc driver as Loeb, but i think calling him "second rate" is possibly a bit harsh lol)
2010 WRC drivers final standings:
1. S. LOEB 18 25 25 25 15 18 25 15 25 10 25 25 25 276
2. J. LATVALA 15 10 18 4 25 R 8 25 12 15 12 12 15 171
3. P. SOLBERG 2 18 15 18 R 10 15 12 10 18 15 18 18 169
4. S. OGIER 10 15 8 12 18 25 12 18 15 25 8 1 R 167
5. D. SORDO 12 0 12 R 10 15 18 10 18 12 18 15 10 150
6. M. HIRVONEN 25 12 0 15 12 12 10 R R 8 10 10 12 126
7. M. WILSON 6 0 10 6 8 8 2 8 8 0 4 8 6 74
8. H. SOLBERG 8 8 2 0 6 R 1 R 0 6 2 4 8 45
9. F. VILLAGRA - 6 6 8 2 4 - - - 4 6 0 - 36
10. K. RAIKKONEN 0 0 4 10 - 1 0 0 6 0 R R 4 25
11. M. OSTBERG 4 - - - 0 6 - 6 0 - R - 2 18
12. K. AL QASSIMI 0 - - - - 2 - R 4 - 0 6 0 12
13. P. ANDERSSON 1 - 0 - - 0 6 1 0 - - - - 8
14. X. PONS - 4 1 - 1 0 - - 0 - 0 - 0 6
15. J. KETOMAA - - - 0 4 0 - 0 - 2 0 - R 6
16. F. TURAN - - - - - - 4 - - - R R - 4
17. J. KANKKUNEN - - - - - - - 4 - - - - - 4
18. M. PROKOP 0 2 - - 0 - - 0 0 1 0 - - 3
19. D. KUIPERS - - - 2 - 0 - 0 0 - - 0 R 2
20. J. HANNINEN - - - - - - - 2 - - - - - 2
21. M. VAN ELDIK - - - - - - - - 2 - - - - 2
22. P. SANDELL - - - - - - - - 1 - 1 - 0 2
23. K. BLOCK - 0 - 0 - R - - R - 0 2 0 2
24. A. ARAUJO 0 1 0 - - 0 - - 0 - 0 - 0 1
25. A. BURKART - - - 1 - 0 - - 0 - 0 0 - 1
26. A. MIKKELSEN - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1
IIRC halfway through the 3rd day, Matt was something like 7 minutes down on Loeb. That's quite a gulf, and while I agree finishing and not binning it or running up huge bills is important, but I think being Malcolm Wilson's son probably gives him some leverage. Even if he consistently scores a ride, I don't think he will ever be a competitor really. He is young, but I just don't see that flair or skill in his driving, whereas his Finnish counterpart Latvala is young and very firey, takes risks and does bin it, but has really improved and become a lot more consistent.
rallycross said:
RadQuinn said:
"BP Ford one year worked out at about £4000 per stage mile per car"
Imagine spending all that and then asking your marketing team to report back on coverage it achieved:'national press - no coverage'
National tv - no coverage'
Specialist tv - 10.30 pm
Mastodon2 said:
IIRC halfway through the 3rd day, Matt was something like 7 minutes down on Loeb. That's quite a gulf, and while I agree finishing and not binning it or running up huge bills is important, but I think being Malcolm Wilson's son probably gives him some leverage. Even if he consistently scores a ride, I don't think he will ever be a competitor really. He is young, but I just don't see that flair or skill in his driving, whereas his Finnish counterpart Latvala is young and very firey, takes risks and does bin it, but has really improved and become a lot more consistent.
Your right there, highlighting the difficult route to gaining wrc supremacy:1) go fast, drive on the edge, have a lot of off's, but try to weather the bad publicity/annoyed team boss/sponsor(having worked at Prodrive during the "solbery years", we used to have bets how many straight pannels the car would have when it returned from events!(usually the winning bet was in low single figures lol), then learn how to tone it down just enough to gain some consistancy, but still maintain the ability to "turn it on" when required (the solberg/ latvala approach!)
2) start slow, build up experience, be consistent, probably not get too much attention, but get the job done, and hope that you can keep building the raw speed
or somehow do with the robot Loeb does, which is go very fast and also be massively consistent!!
Latvala has actually been pretty impressive this season, outpointing his more favoured team mate, and putting in some pretty fast times!
Without a doubt, having "wilson" as your surname is an advantage, but i think matts actually done quite well to live up to the reputation!
djaychela said:
iamrcb said:
You are the Felicia guy then...
Did a big cheer seeing you pass on the Resolven stage last weekend.
Yes, I'm the Felicia guy! It was hugely appreciated, we could hear (and see) people's reaction as we went by, a few people really went for it too! I'll never forget it, as of course there's no way I'll be able to do another WRC event (although I'm hoping to do Monte Carlo 2012, as it's IRC). By the time we got to Resolven the car was a bit done in, having broken the rear shocks on Saturday night and put standard road car ones on for a bouncy Sunday!Did a big cheer seeing you pass on the Resolven stage last weekend.
davemcc43 said:
Did you also run in the 2008 Wales rally?
I seem to remember hearing a story over the tannoy of two chaps who bought an old scrap Felica and built it into a Rally car and they were running that year. Does that sound like you?
DAVE
Hi Dave.I seem to remember hearing a story over the tannoy of two chaps who bought an old scrap Felica and built it into a Rally car and they were running that year. Does that sound like you?
DAVE
Yes, I ran in 2008 as well. Car cost me £40 originally, which is the same cost as the nut on the steering arm of a Focus WRC, according to the team manager. Owes me a bit more than that now, of course, but it's still cost less to build than a couple of Focus WRC bumpers and headlights.
And his car from the 2010 event on the morning run through Margam Park
Max_Torque said:
I think that it's extremely likely that Matt's less confident and aggressive style is entirely comenserate with being in a less "secure" position than Loeb with regard to his position in the team. Now Loeb is undoubtly a true master on all surfaces (esp tarmac) but he does have a significant luxury in not having to worry that he might loose his seat if he bins it. Not something that Matt Wilson has! Considering Matts junior status, his "get to the end" style of consistent finishing seems like a pretty good one! (he finished the 2010 drivers championship in 7th place, compared to say Ken Block (with his gung ho style lol) in 23rd !!
(so, no, he's not as "good" a wrc driver as Loeb, but i think calling him "second rate" is possibly a bit harsh lol)
2010 WRC drivers final standings:
1. S. LOEB 18 25 25 25 15 18 25 15 25 10 25 25 25 276
2. J. LATVALA 15 10 18 4 25 R 8 25 12 15 12 12 15 171
3. P. SOLBERG 2 18 15 18 R 10 15 12 10 18 15 18 18 169
4. S. OGIER 10 15 8 12 18 25 12 18 15 25 8 1 R 167
5. D. SORDO 12 0 12 R 10 15 18 10 18 12 18 15 10 150
6. M. HIRVONEN 25 12 0 15 12 12 10 R R 8 10 10 12 126
7. M. WILSON 6 0 10 6 8 8 2 8 8 0 4 8 6 74
8. H. SOLBERG 8 8 2 0 6 R 1 R 0 6 2 4 8 45
9. F. VILLAGRA - 6 6 8 2 4 - - - 4 6 0 - 36
10. K. RAIKKONEN 0 0 4 10 - 1 0 0 6 0 R R 4 25
11. M. OSTBERG 4 - - - 0 6 - 6 0 - R - 2 18
12. K. AL QASSIMI 0 - - - - 2 - R 4 - 0 6 0 12
13. P. ANDERSSON 1 - 0 - - 0 6 1 0 - - - - 8
14. X. PONS - 4 1 - 1 0 - - 0 - 0 - 0 6
15. J. KETOMAA - - - 0 4 0 - 0 - 2 0 - R 6
16. F. TURAN - - - - - - 4 - - - R R - 4
17. J. KANKKUNEN - - - - - - - 4 - - - - - 4
18. M. PROKOP 0 2 - - 0 - - 0 0 1 0 - - 3
19. D. KUIPERS - - - 2 - 0 - 0 0 - - 0 R 2
20. J. HANNINEN - - - - - - - 2 - - - - - 2
21. M. VAN ELDIK - - - - - - - - 2 - - - - 2
22. P. SANDELL - - - - - - - - 1 - 1 - 0 2
23. K. BLOCK - 0 - 0 - R - - R - 0 2 0 2
24. A. ARAUJO 0 1 0 - - 0 - - 0 - 0 - 0 1
25. A. BURKART - - - 1 - 0 - - 0 - 0 0 - 1
26. A. MIKKELSEN - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1
So he only finished ahead of one person who attended every event.(so, no, he's not as "good" a wrc driver as Loeb, but i think calling him "second rate" is possibly a bit harsh lol)
2010 WRC drivers final standings:
1. S. LOEB 18 25 25 25 15 18 25 15 25 10 25 25 25 276
2. J. LATVALA 15 10 18 4 25 R 8 25 12 15 12 12 15 171
3. P. SOLBERG 2 18 15 18 R 10 15 12 10 18 15 18 18 169
4. S. OGIER 10 15 8 12 18 25 12 18 15 25 8 1 R 167
5. D. SORDO 12 0 12 R 10 15 18 10 18 12 18 15 10 150
6. M. HIRVONEN 25 12 0 15 12 12 10 R R 8 10 10 12 126
7. M. WILSON 6 0 10 6 8 8 2 8 8 0 4 8 6 74
8. H. SOLBERG 8 8 2 0 6 R 1 R 0 6 2 4 8 45
9. F. VILLAGRA - 6 6 8 2 4 - - - 4 6 0 - 36
10. K. RAIKKONEN 0 0 4 10 - 1 0 0 6 0 R R 4 25
11. M. OSTBERG 4 - - - 0 6 - 6 0 - R - 2 18
12. K. AL QASSIMI 0 - - - - 2 - R 4 - 0 6 0 12
13. P. ANDERSSON 1 - 0 - - 0 6 1 0 - - - - 8
14. X. PONS - 4 1 - 1 0 - - 0 - 0 - 0 6
15. J. KETOMAA - - - 0 4 0 - 0 - 2 0 - R 6
16. F. TURAN - - - - - - 4 - - - R R - 4
17. J. KANKKUNEN - - - - - - - 4 - - - - - 4
18. M. PROKOP 0 2 - - 0 - - 0 0 1 0 - - 3
19. D. KUIPERS - - - 2 - 0 - 0 0 - - 0 R 2
20. J. HANNINEN - - - - - - - 2 - - - - - 2
21. M. VAN ELDIK - - - - - - - - 2 - - - - 2
22. P. SANDELL - - - - - - - - 1 - 1 - 0 2
23. K. BLOCK - 0 - 0 - R - - R - 0 2 0 2
24. A. ARAUJO 0 1 0 - - 0 - - 0 - 0 - 0 1
25. A. BURKART - - - 1 - 0 - - 0 - 0 0 - 1
26. A. MIKKELSEN - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1
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